Re: I have a problem with this:

[dorayme]

I wouldn't know where to even begin as far as starting at the beginning to
learn CSS... short of buying a book and spending hours and hours trying to
learn it on my own how to build a website totally via CSS.. I don't think
that'll happen... although I wouldn't mind learning it... Just don't have
enough hours in the day, and I can't spend the off hours working too or I'll
go nuts.

One good way to begin is to get on to the idea of separating
style from content. There is a lot of stuff on this, perhaps,
when you have time and feel like it. It is often recommended for
folk to look at

<http://htmldog.com/>

where you can look into things at whatever level you feel
comfortable with. Here is a paragraph from one of their pages:

"The thing to keep in mind is that HTML and CSS are all about
separating the content (HTML) and the presentation (CSS). HTML is
nothing more than fancy structured content and the visual
formatting of that content will come later when we tackle CSS.
If you have looked at other HTML tutorials, you might have found
that they mention certain things that HTML Dog does not. This is
because many methods are obsolete, non-standard or just plain bad
practice. Getting into the frame of mind of doing things the
right way from the start will turn in to much better results in
the end."

There are many tutorials on CSS at this website.

You mention building "a website totally via CSS". When you get on
to some of the ideas about the roles that HTML and CSS play, it
will sound strange to put it this way. CSS is just a way to style
what is already being said or shown on a webpage via the HTML. It
would be *as* accurate to say one builds a website from the HTML.

When you use tables for layout, this distinction gets very
obscured because tables have such a strong visual presentational
aspect built into them by their very nature. If we were not
visual beings by and large, tables even for the delivery of
paradigm case data as in scientific ones would likely not be
used, there might well be a different sort of element. I am just
saying that it is hard for someone coming from a tables website
building approach to see through this built in technological
bias.

A table in the HTML can strictly remain quite unstyled and un
html attributed. No cellpadding="..." or width="..." or even
border="...". But it is generally pretty hopeless for interesting
layout not to have any extra styling no matter whether it is via
HTML attributes of CSS. By default, tables are shrink to fit and
pretty basic. Not what is usually wanted for nice.

So, as we all do, we add instructions to it so it gets to look
nice. You already have been doing this for a long time. But
strictly, you can have the table plain in the HTML (no attributes
at all or very few) and style it outside the HTML document in a
CSS sheet.

In other words, you don't have to quite give up on your favourite
element, the table element to start using an external style sheet
to get the feel of separating style from content a bit and
getting comfortable with 'building with CSS'.

 

[dorayme]

But it is generally pretty hopeless for interesting
layout not to have any extra styling no matter whether it is via
HTML attributes of CSS.

That should have read:

"But it is generally pretty hopeless for interesting
layout not to have any extra styling no matter whether it is via
HTML attributes or CSS."

 

[Doug Miller]

I am entitled to be treated in such as way that is right for me... you are
entitled to be treated as you would like, also.

Nonsense.

Complete, utter, absolute and abject nonsense.

Nobody is "entitled" to be treated with anything other than common courtesy,
politeness, and respect. Many people -- including, apparently, yourself --
wish to be treated with kid gloves, or as royalty, or as demi-deities; the
mere fact that they wish it does not, of course, "entitle" them to such
treatment any more than my desire for more money "entitles" me to walk into a
bank and demand it.

To illustrate the point by way of extreme example, suppose that I would like
to be treated as King Of The World, my every pronouncement, no matter how
cockamamie it might be, to be regarded with awe and revered as though it came
from the mouth of God Himself, my judgement to be obeyed without question, and
so on. Am I "entitled to be treated as would like"? Of course not.
Not to mention the number of times she has referred to "having something
shoved down her throat". I think there's an issue there, too...

It is akin to someone walking up to a woman and harassing her by pulling her
hair or pinching her arm or the like..

Oh, bullshit, it is not. You need to grow a much thicker skin. You also need
to grow up, and develop an adult understanding of the world. There is a *huge*
difference between spoken or written communication that you find unpleasant,
and an actual physical assault. I've watched this thread develop over the last
few days, without commenting, but at this point I can't remain silent any
longer. For whatever reason, you have an enormous chip on your shoulder. You
need to lose that, before you can expect anyone to take you seriously.

Speech you dislike, and physical violence, are worlds apart.

Adults understand this.

a normal reaction is to swat the
source of the pain to make it stop... ergo ... verbal harassment and
meanness gets a normal reaction of a cyber black eye.

You have not been verbally harassed in this thread. Neither have you been
subjected to "meanness".

Nor have you given anyone a "cyber black eye", your fantasies of having done
so notwithstanding.

Grow up, Jenn (from Oklahoma).

 

[Jenn]

One good way to begin is to get on to the idea of separating
style from content. There is a lot of stuff on this, perhaps,
when you have time and feel like it. It is often recommended for
folk to look at

<http://htmldog.com/>

where you can look into things at whatever level you feel
comfortable with. Here is a paragraph from one of their pages:

"The thing to keep in mind is that HTML and CSS are all about
separating the content (HTML) and the presentation (CSS). HTML is
nothing more than fancy structured content and the visual
formatting of that content will come later when we tackle CSS.

I'm a very visual learner and from the beginning, I see websites laid out in
tables. I see a picture frame and I see tables.. I see a monitor and I see
tables. The tr's and tds .. I see them each one on a website. The html,
I've always considered that to be how a site is formatted...mmmmmm .... the
html is what formats the content. The CSS can do that too, but I can't see
it like I can see tables. Small style sheets with general formatting of
fonts and links I have no problems with using those and I've used them for
quite a while, but the syntax of CSS seems like more trouble to learn for
more complicated websites than it would be to just lay a site out in html
and code it how I know, now. As it is, I work with multiple styles sheets
created by other people and there is so much written just on one sheet that
in order to change a specific element it takes more time finding it on the
style sheet and finding the right style sheet than it would if the code
existed within the html document.

I did take a look at your link above, but there is too much information to
obsorb. I get sensory overload on sites like that.. LOL Frankly, I just
need a final example and a style sheet to study and that is how I learn.
For me, it's the bottom line. I need to see the finished product and then I
study and analyze what makes it look that way. I suppose I've gotten to be
this way because I don't have time to spend taking slow steps.. I usually
have to get how it's done within a short period of time and move on to the
next task. I started to do that in the beginning when someone showed me a
site that had different styles applied to it. I downloaded one of the css
files and html to study it, but I lost interest, mostly because I felt the
idea was being shoved down my throat and that is really not a good approach
with me if people want me to accept or try what they are saying.

 

[dorayme]

Nonsense.

Complete, utter, absolute and abject nonsense.

Nobody is "entitled" to be treated with anything other than common courtesy,
politeness, and respect.

Which is what she is mainly wanting and what she did not get from
too many subscribers keen to exhibit a side to their personality
that they should really be more ashamed of. Jenn said nothing
that justified the attack on her in the terms used.

I've watched this thread develop over the
last
few days, without commenting, but at this point I can't remain silent any
longer.

Pity. The lady is not for turning at the behest of insolence,
lowlife remarks and crude patronising and bullying. There is no
need to bond with the other gang members sticking in the boot,
there have been enough of them to make a ripe little party.

Speech you dislike, and physical violence, are worlds apart.

Adults understand this.

Do they now? The effects of cruel and vindictive words on some
people is greater than you think. And someone defending
themselves boldly is not always a sure sign that they are not
hurt. It is another shameful episode at alt.html and you would
have done better to have said quite different things. I doubt if
many here will ever get that what one person does in one or two
exchanges is one thing, what a mob does when it piles in is quite
another.

....

You have not been verbally harassed in this thread. Neither have you been
subjected to "meanness".

How could you have missed the meanness? Are you really blind to
what has been said? Perhaps the perpetrators are in your killfile
already for other offences or your news service is not getting
those posts and you are not to be blamed? Read the thread on GG
where it all there in all the gory details.

 

[Jenn]

Nonsense.

Complete, utter, absolute and abject nonsense.

No it's not nonsense......

Nobody is "entitled" to be treated with anything other than common
courtesy,
politeness, and respect.

What do you think it means to treat a woman like a lady? You just proved my
point. To treat a woman like a lady is to be treated with common courtesy,
politeness, and respect... therefore, since you just confirmed that everyone
is entitled to that treatment, I expect your next post to be polite,
courteous, and with respect.

Not to mention the number of times she has referred to "having something
shoved down her throat". I think there's an issue there, too...

Have you not ever heard that saying before?

Oh, bullshit, it is not. You need to grow a much thicker skin.

I have thicker skin, but this isn't a debate group and I shouldn't have to
break out my thicker skin in order to chit chat about html.

You also need
to grow up, and develop an adult understanding of the world.

I've raised 3 kids to full adulthood, and I'm the proud grandmother of a
lovely granddaughter who will be 2 yrs old this October. The understanding
that I have of the adult world is that many adults never grow up, therefore,
they feel they have the right to attack and abuse other people they feel
deserve it. That's just one symptom.... but I imagine you aren't interested
in understanding my perspective on this matter, so I will kick it into
debate mode and respond to you accordingly.

There is a *huge*
difference between spoken or written communication that you find
unpleasant,
and an actual physical assault.

And I suppose you've not encountered such comparisons before?

I've watched this thread develop over the last
few days, without commenting, but at this point I can't remain silent any
longer. For whatever reason, you have an enormous chip on your shoulder.
You
need to lose that, before you can expect anyone to take you seriously.

You mean before *YOU* will take me seriously, right? I can assure you I am
well able to communicate with people who are nice without any problems...
but you seem to believe that you have some sort of authority to tell me what
to do... I should tell you ahead of time, I won't be likely to respond to
such a demand in a manner that will feed your ego. Feel free to push, but
also take your cyber black eye if you feel you are froggy enough to try to
push me.

Speech you dislike, and physical violence, are worlds apart.

Adults understand this.

Do tell? This should be good. Please elaborate.

You have not been verbally harassed in this thread. Neither have you been
subjected to "meanness".

There is none so blind as the one who can't see past his own nose... you are
as cocky and self-indulgent believing that you have some sort of right to
chastise me when you are no one to me. Perhaps you should back up and start
over? Introduce yourself and begin a nice discussion about something we
both might find interesting.

 

[dorayme]

I'm a very visual learner and from the beginning, I see websites laid out in
tables. I see a picture frame and I see tables.. I see a monitor and I see
tables. The tr's and tds .. I see them each one on a website. The html,
I've always considered that to be how a site is formatted...mmmmmm .... the
html is what formats the content.

In a way, you are right where tables are concerned. As I was
saying though, even with tables you can separate the HTML from
the CSS. In a recent discussion on another matter, I offered a
couple of URLs to illustrate something or other but they happen
also to be useful here to make the point. In the following two,
look at the source mark up via your View Source or similar
browser menu. The HTML markup in the bit between the body opening
and closing tags are almost the same. But the little bit of CSS
in the head of each (they could be put in a separate page and
merely linked to) cause very different layout and look.

This is just a quick example, I christen it the DCGOP example.
You best view these with Firefox in case your version of IE
chokes on my CSS (which could easily be made fireproof to cope
with IE)

<http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/tables/defaultWidthTable.html>

<http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/tables/cellSpaceGrabs.html>

 

[Jenn]

Which is what she is mainly wanting and what she did not get from
too many subscribers keen to exhibit a side to their personality
that they should really be more ashamed of. Jenn said nothing
that justified the attack on her in the terms used.


Pity. The lady is not for turning at the behest of insolence,
lowlife remarks and crude patronising and bullying. There is no
need to bond with the other gang members sticking in the boot,
there have been enough of them to make a ripe little party.


Do they now? The effects of cruel and vindictive words on some
people is greater than you think. And someone defending
themselves boldly is not always a sure sign that they are not
hurt. It is another shameful episode at alt.html and you would
have done better to have said quite different things. I doubt if
many here will ever get that what one person does in one or two
exchanges is one thing, what a mob does when it piles in is quite
another.

...

How could you have missed the meanness? Are you really blind to
what has been said? Perhaps the perpetrators are in your killfile
already for other offences or your news service is not getting
those posts and you are not to be blamed? Read the thread on GG
where it all there in all the gory details.

Thank you, dorayme ... I appreciate you.

If you are interested, I'd be very happy if you wanted to join my bbs. No
pressure to do so if you have no interest, tho. I have a forum there that I
use to write my thoughts down.. sort of like a blog, but maybe even more
like notes for a book I might write some day. Anyway, if you're interested
it's at http://pqlr.org/bbs Some forums are just there for fun.. others to
have a good rant, and still others a good laugh even. Nothing special, tho
as far as bbs's go.

 

[Jenn]

In a way, you are right where tables are concerned. As I was
saying though, even with tables you can separate the HTML from
the CSS. In a recent discussion on another matter, I offered a
couple of URLs to illustrate something or other but they happen
also to be useful here to make the point. In the following two,
look at the source mark up via your View Source or similar
browser menu. The HTML markup in the bit between the body opening
and closing tags are almost the same. But the little bit of CSS
in the head of each (they could be put in a separate page and
merely linked to) cause very different layout and look.

This is just a quick example, I christen it the DCGOP example.
You best view these with Firefox in case your version of IE
chokes on my CSS (which could easily be made fireproof to cope
with IE)

<http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/tables/defaultWidthTable.html>

<http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/tables/cellSpaceGrabs.html>

Both pages are cool to read the code.

Why do you only use #cfc for a bg color instead of the 6 letters/numbers for
a color?

What does border-collapse: collapse; mean and why use it?

Whats with this:
table {
font-family: monnospace;
border-collapse: collapse;
}

Never heard of using monnospace for anything.

#Wrap ...1000px width?

 

[rf]

Why do you only use #cfc for a bg color instead of the 6 letters/numbers
for a color?

What does border-collapse: collapse; mean and why use it?

Whats with this:
table {
font-family: monnospace;
border-collapse: collapse;
}

Never heard of using monnospace for anything.

#Wrap ...1000px width?

It's all explained fully in the CSS recommendation at
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/ where the validator also lives.

 

[dorayme]

Both pages are cool to read the code.

Why do you only use #cfc for a bg color instead of the 6 letters/numbers for
a color?

Laziness and/or a desire to be economical. #cfc is a shorthand
for #ccffcc which all browsers understand. This shorthand works
for all #xyz where x, y and z are pairs of the same hexadecimal.

What does border-collapse: collapse; mean and why use it?

This is a very good question. And there is a lot on this matter,
it gets a bit complicated.

Think of it really simply for the moment just in terms of table
cells like TDs: it is often quite unwanted for there to be
*separate* borders around each cell as would happen if you *just*
had:

td {border: 1px solid black;}

with

<table>
<tr><td>content</td>td>content</td>td>content</td></tr>
<tr><td>content</td>td>content</td>td>content</td></tr>
<tr><td>content</td>td>content</td>td>content</td></tr>
</table>

This would get an effect of lots of little separate boxes close
enough together in a general grid. Nice sometimes! But generally,
for a table with information and borders to help read the rows
and columns, better is where the borders between the cells
*collapse* together to leave just the minimum, clean lines up and
down. margin: 0; is powerless on its own to do this. (unlike the
power of the HTML attribute of cellspacing="0" which is too
powerful and can give a double border between cells)

With 'border-collapse' there are three values, collapse, separate
and inherit. If we:

table {border-collapse: collapse;}
td {border: 1px solid; padding:.3em;}

with the above table, we will get a nice enough look for some
purposes with just single lines that mark out the rows and
columns (even though it is the cells doing the work, their
getting up all friendly and close and cooperative has a gestalt
effect bigger than themselves).

Separate cells with borders are very male! border-collapse:
collapse brings out their feminine side. They are much nicer to
each other too this way and particularly to anything that happens
to wander by. Boy o boy, could I tell you what I have seen and
what my HTML camera has picked up over the years on this matter.
But long story don't ask...)

Whats with this:
table {
font-family: monnospace;
border-collapse: collapse;
}

Never heard of using monnospace for anything.

Neither have I! It was a typo of mine now fixed! <g>

I was messing about with something where I wanted a consistency
of horizontal space for the letters and a monospace font (like
Courier) gets this. Other types of fonts have a variable width
and designed to look nice together. Monospace fonts are male
fonts, rigid, automatic, clunk clunk clunk, all in mechanical
fashion. They were well suited to typewriters which needed to

#Wrap ...1000px width?

I offered the two urls here to show how two *basically same* html
tables can be altered in appearance by some CSS. The two urls
were not designed originally to show this aspect. For my purpose
here, you could get rid of the containing div altogether and
change the width of table in the CSS from % to 1000px. If the
container of the table is 1000px and the table is 100%, it is
1000px wide in this page. You often see tables set by authors to
be 100% width and quite often it is simply 100% of BODY which is
often as wide as the viewport. Roughly speaking.

Now the reason I picked 1000px was I was trying to calculate
something and needed a nice figure. 100px was too small but
1000px gave me a nice visual experimental bed where I could check
to see if browsers were following a rule I was testing for how
cells are given widths on the pure basis of their relative
content.

As it happens, btw, browsers are remarkably similar where no
wrapping occurs but the Mozilla browsers (Firefox) differ from
the webkit ones (Safari) where wrapping occurs, they have
different space conservation policies.

 

[Neredbojias]

Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Neredbojias


Actually, a 2002 bottle of Shiraz won top prize in the 2004
International Eastern Wine Competition, up against 2300 other wines.
Not bad, I would say, for 2 bucks. Oh, and it doesn't come by the
gallon, it comes in the standard wine bottle size, 3/4 liter.

Well, I'm not much of a wino, myself. On those (extremely rare)
occasions whence I do feel inclined to imbibe, I prefer a good rich,
medium-cool German dark beer over anything alcoholic in the world. On
the threshold of a first-date, though, it's a 6-pack of Bud and a shot
of Tequila with lime.

 

[Neredbojias]

Thanks for the explanation.. that's funny.

Speaking of wine .. this year my husband began a new hobby and he is
now making wine. My kitchen and dining area has been turned into a
wine processing plant.. jugs of fermenting wine, bubblers, large jugs
for aging the wine, etc. I have to say it is pretty good... some is
white, some red, and some blush.

I worked with an Italian one time and once when we made a quick stop at
his house for something, he gave me a taste of (what he called)
50-year-old "Dago Red". It was as strong as whisky, and damn, it
warmed ya up! His grandparents (still living) had made it in their
youths.

 

[Neredbojias]

LOL I like your sense of humor.

question... how in the world do you pronounce your username here?
Neredbojias? Does it mean anything or is it just a favorite word?

It's pronounced NAY-red-BO-gee-oz. The "O" in BO is long and the "gee"
is a soft g like in "geez". It comes from Olde Celtic and means "Great
One with Big Thing". It's patently a superlative name but it overawes
some people like dorayme whom I think feels inferior in its presence
because their own name is such a wimpy concoction of discordant
sounding syllabic gutteral.

 

[dorayme]

Obviously there are limits, but it's not complete nonsense.

There's a distinction between treating people equally and treating them
the same. If someone's culture or gender or whatever means they prefer
to be treated in a particular way then, provided that's not much extra
trouble, you might as well. That comes under common courtesy etc.
anyway.

For example, dorayme likes to be non-capitalized, even at the start of a
sentence. Mr Korpela does not like people to use his first name or to be
psychoanalyzed, especially in public. We can just about manage to
respect requests like these, although in the former case sometimes our
fingers just won't type it.

Indeed all is true.. I come on to add only the usual reminder in
cases to do with people's fingers at keys:

<http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/jokes/germanPianist.html>

 

[Doug Miller]

Obviously there are limits, but it's not complete nonsense.

There's a distinction between treating people equally and treating them
the same. If someone's culture or gender or whatever means they prefer
to be treated in a particular way then, provided that's not much extra
trouble, you might as well. That comes under common courtesy etc.
anyway.

Well, of course, but that's not what I labelled as "nonsense". The nonsense is
the notion that everyone is entitled to be treated in the way that they wish.

For example, dorayme likes to be non-capitalized, even at the start of a
sentence. Mr Korpela does not like people to use his first name or to be
psychoanalyzed, especially in public. We can just about manage to
respect requests like these, although in the former case sometimes our
fingers just won't type it.

I see no problems there. I *do* see a problem with people who feel that they
are "entitled" to have others refrain from criticizing them solely because of
their gender, the color of their skin, etc.

 

[Doug Miller]

No it's not nonsense......

Yes, it is. See next paragraph...
... and consider the case of a person who wishes to be treated in a manner
that goes far beyond the above. That person is *not* entitled to be so
treated, despite what you may think.

What do you think it means to treat a woman like a lady? You just proved my
point. To treat a woman like a lady is to be treated with common courtesy,
politeness, and respect... therefore, since you just confirmed that everyone
is entitled to that treatment, I expect your next post to be polite,
courteous, and with respect.

You appear to wish treatment that goes beyond that. Specifically, you appear
to believe that your gender should make you immune to unpleasant criticism,
and feel entitled to said immunity.

Sorry. Life doesn't work that way.

Have you not ever heard that saying before?

Yes, of course. But not with such frequency.

I have thicker skin, but this isn't a debate group and I shouldn't have to
break out my thicker skin in order to chit chat about html.

You need a thicker skin in general if you can't distinguish verbal
unpleasantness from an actual physical assault.

I've raised 3 kids to full adulthood, and I'm the proud grandmother of a
lovely granddaughter who will be 2 yrs old this October.

While pleasant and heartwarming to contemplate, that is of no relevance.

The understanding
that I have of the adult world is that many adults never grow up, therefore,
they feel they have the right to attack and abuse other people they feel
deserve it. That's just one symptom....

And another symptom is feeling that they have the right to be free from any
manner of unpleasantness.

but I imagine you aren't interested
in understanding my perspective on this matter, so I will kick it into
debate mode and respond to you accordingly.

I think you've made your perspective quite plain already. I disagree with it.

And I suppose you've not encountered such comparisons before?

The fact that you are not the only person to have made such an equation does
not in any way establish its validity.

You mean before *YOU* will take me seriously, right?

I meant exactly what I wrote.

I can assure you I am
well able to communicate with people who are nice without any problems...
but you seem to believe that you have some sort of authority to tell me what
to do...

Ummmm.... no, that would be you. This entire thread is the result of *your*
belief that you have some sort of authority to tell others what to do, i.e.
refrain from writing anything you find unpleasant.

I should tell you ahead of time, I won't be likely to respond to
such a demand in a manner that will feed your ego.

I'm making no demands whatever of you.

Feel free to push, but
also take your cyber black eye if you feel you are froggy enough to try to
push me.

There's that violent imagery again...

Do tell? This should be good. Please elaborate.

You can't be serious. You really need elaboration of the concept that there's
a difference between speech and physical violence?

 

[dorayme]

... This entire thread is the result of *your*
belief that you have some sort of authority to tell others what to do, i.e.
refrain from writing anything you find unpleasant.

The thread is not the result of any one thing and if one thing
does stand out, it is as much the incredible bad manners of a
whole bunch of people here as anything else.

 

[rf]

The thread is not the result of any one thing and if one thing
does stand out, it is as much the incredible bad manners of a
whole bunch of people here as anything else.

And those "bad mannars", mine included, were fired up by this come in here
bloody upstart attitude where she does not believe that the tools we use in
our *profession* should be used by or apply to her.

She is self proclaimed bloody precious, having "made money" without using
those tools, I suspect to the detrement of her "clients". I pity them when
they have to use somebody to great expense else to fix their site when it
fails in IE10 of FF4.

FFS dorayme, even you use the validator. Why should she not when five
hundred and twenty eight people tell her that she is a bloody stupid amateur
for not using it?

 

[Jenn]

Yes, we will have to disagree. I, a man, am a feminist.

....to my surprise... I thought you were a woman.. LOL
I've not come across a man named Shelly before. That is what women usually
call themselves where I come from.

By that I mean that both sexes should have equal rights and opportunities
and receive equal pay for equal work.

I have no problem with some feminist rhetoric that has a purpose to promote
logical equality issues.

Will I use vulgarity in the presence of women? Almost never.

Good.

However, I don't do so very often with men either.

Good again.......

I guess that is a carryover from my upbringing in the 40's and 50's when
Carlin's 7 words you don't say on TV was valid and the Nelsons slept in
separate beds.

mmmmmm I wasn't even a twinkle in anyone's eye in the 40's, but I made it to
the twinkle in the late 50's.

The issue here, though, is not about gender. It is about commentary on
html coding. A woman can be just as much a bull in a china closet as a
man and a man can be just as sensitive to criticism as a woman.

No argument there... but that hasn't been this particular case.

The discussion here was not "with a lady". It was with "an html coder".

hahaha I am a woman first and many other things first... html coding is
what I do for a living. It doesn't define who I am, and shouldn't.

To use an old cliche, "if you can't take the heat, stay out of the
kitchen". You enter this "kitchen" as a coder, NOT as a man or a woman.

There is no sign posted on the door that at entering.. anyone who posts here
forfeits their gender identity and should not expect to be treated kindly or
with respect.