Respect and Disappointment

M

Mark Probert

Hi ..

But they don't 'wield them', do they? Not unless they're the size of king
kong, at least.
Taken an axe to them is close :)
The simple answer is 'because it's really good.'
So are IOWA, Nitro, Wee .. and the list goes on.
The next question that springs to mind is:
'what the hell does the developers personality have to do with your choice
of tools?'

That is a good question. Pragmatically, none. As I grow older, I find that
pragmatics matters less "doing the right thing", being "karmically clean", to
use West Coast speak. It is a personal choice of mine, like trying to use as
much freeware, or paying for shareware even when I can get the keys. Just my
personal choice.

Regards,
 
M

Mark Probert

Hi ..

The choices you make as a programmer serves as indicators for your
cultural standing and performance. The kind of books you read, the
methodologies that you favor, the pastime projects you're involved
with, and yes, your choice of programming language and computing
environment.
Poor you! Such sad psycho-babble .. If you are motorhead, it means? Or an
opera fan?

Do you ~really~ believe this?
Additionally, I don't buy into the notion that discussion choice of
computing platform is similar to discussing what color you like better
or other instinctive matters. The choice is a conscious one and open
for debate.
David,

Here is a quick challenge. Design for us a VoIP cellphone. Take me through
your choices of hardware platform and OS. Don't forget that time to market
and end-user cost are paramount.

Regards,
 
C

Caleb Tennis

Here is a quick challenge. Design for us a VoIP cellphone. Take me
through
your choices of hardware platform and OS. Don't forget that time to
market
and end-user cost are paramount.

Couple into that notion that your major customer, a very large cellular
provider, requires that their engineering teams be able to read and
understand your embedded software code so that they can customize the
product after taking receipt of it.

Oh, and none of them are familiar with Ruby.
 
A

Austin Ziegler

* Austin Ziegler (Mar 31, 2005 19:30):
Ah, a fellow total commander addict. It's the one application I have
installed on my Windows installation besides Warcraft 3,

I'm NOT an addict. I can give it up any time I ...

NO YOU WILL NOT DELETE IT FROM MY SYSTEM!

This one application makes me at least 20 times more productive in
Windows than I will be in bash. With its built in FTP support and
pluggable SFTP support (flaky, but...), it is the *single* application
that is *always* running on my system. Always.

-austin
 
A

Austin Ziegler

What about all the Windows users who look forward to using Macs?!?
Am I the only one? :)

No. I'm buying a Mac (PowerBook) when I can afford it. I might get a
Mac Mini in the interim.

But I am not a lesser developer because I *also* choose Windows.

-austin
 
L

Luc Heinrich

Stephen Kellett said:
Please demonstrate why the Mac is not proprietary and
where I can buy a Mac with a mouse having more than one button.

No, I'm sorry, I won't, for 2 reasons:
- this place is not the right place.
- I've probably had this kind of "discussion" a quintizillion times and
I know exactly how it's going to end. There's absolutely no point.
 
N

Nikolai Weibull

* Mark Probert (Mar 31, 2005 22:00):
A few paradigms come to mind:
Object Oriented -- all OS components are first class objects
(Oberon)
Distributed Objects -- all OS components are distributed
objects (Amoeba)
No Files -- there is no concept of files at all,
just an app (embedded OSs)

And why are "objects" better than "files"? A file is an object right,
it's just a very hands-on alternative to hiding stuff behind objects and
interfaces. Think of it this way:
 
S

Stephen Kellett

David said:
There's no mistake. Hiring a programmer is a composite image of many
things good and bad. For 37signals, it's definitely a disadvantage to
still be a Windows user. I wouldn't say that it's impossible, just
considerably harder, to convince us that it didn't matter too much.

You need to do some research on psychology. You really need to be
looking at the person and their ability, not at the fact they strongly
dislike Bovril and have a passion for Sushi.
On the other hand, if you want to work with open source technologies
like the Rails stack of Apache/lighttpd, MySQL/PostgreSQL, Ruby/Rails,
etc, I find a strong disconnect with doing so from Windows.

There may be many reasons a company is using Windows, reasons which are
not made public. The Ruby/Rails/MySQL/otherOSS tools may be chosen
because they are still perceived as the most suitable/best (delete as
appropriate) whilst on windows (*). The fact that someone is using a
Proprietary OS/hardware has no bearing on their tool choice (except if
they are prevented from choosing the tool). They may also want to use
other software that is not available on your free OS of choice. Thus
they have to use Windows. Quite apart from they just like Windows. I've
tried Macs loads of times. I really do not like how they work. Why? I
don't know. Same with Bovril. Same with Independent skateboard trucks,
but Trackers are great.

On my last consulting gig at a Windows software house there were plenty
of tools you'd expect to find in Unixland in use - mainly Perl and
Python. Why? Because some of the guys writing Windows code wanted some
flexible tools for other jobs and chose those tools. Management didn't
mind, so the OSS tools get in the software house. An active move against
Windows would stop such a thing, as the OSS tools wouldn't be available
at all. In 1990 a company I worked for choose gcc to use as the compiler
for VMS and 6 different Unix OSes rather than use the native compiler
for each. They chose gcc as it was seen as the best tool (**).

Rails will be bigger and better with a strong Windows community. As will
any other OSS. Given you claim there is a political stance in your
choice, your choice is actively working against the widest possible
adoption of OSS.
other instinctive matters. The choice is a conscious one and open for
debate.

The answer boils down to "because I couldn't afford a Mac", or "because
its easier, I prefer this", or "I don't like that". For me, all 3
exclude Macs as a possible choice. I wouldn't choose my software
platform out of OSS/freedom/political considerations. I choose it
because I think it is the best/most appropriate for my needs (***). If
that meant I had to save for a Mac I would. Luckily for me, it doesn't.
Probably also explains why I don't have the lastest Warp-Factor 5,
Hyper-This-That-TheOther-Intelium 2000 box.

Note (*) (**) (***) are the same thing. People choose what is for them,
the best, most appropriate tool. For some, most appropriate may include
a quasi-political stance, which seems to be your case. Don't make the
mistake that everyone makes software decisions on those lines.

If you cannot get your head around the fact that other people do not
think the same way as you, you are going to have a hard time getting
people to adopt Rails when you actively antagonise them. People will
choose the best unless the people providing the best antagonise them.

See
http://www.insearchofstupidity.com/Book_Excerpts/Chapter_Five/chapter_fiv
e.html

I recommend reading the whole book. Its a hoot.

Final comment. Why didn't you write something intelligible like the
posting you made here rather than the stuff on the blog that caused this
bother?

Stephen
 
S

Stephen Kellett

Luc Heinrich said:
No, I'm sorry, I won't, for 2 reasons:
- this place is not the right place.

By email then.
- I've probably had this kind of "discussion" a quintizillion times and
I know exactly how it's going to end. There's absolutely no point.

There is every point. Its a matter of fact, not opinion. Either you are
right or you are wrong. You are wrong on the price front as others have
noted. On the remaining two point you are taking the classic "I know
better than thou" stance but refusing to provide the answers. That is a
stance that trolls take.

Stephen
 
G

gabriele renzi

Mark Probert ha scritto:
Hi ..




Have a look at

http://tunes.org/Review/OSes.html

A few paradigms come to mind:

Object Oriented -- all OS components are first class objects (Oberon)
Distributed Objects -- all OS components are distributed objects (Amoeba)
No Files -- there is no concept of files at all, just an app (embedded OSs)

The "everything is a file" is a *nix mantra. The original MacOS wasn't like
that at all.

sorry, but is'nt winNT based on the everything is a object?
 
D

David Heinemeier Hansson

You need to do some research on psychology. You really need to be
looking at the person and their ability, not at the fact they strongly
dislike Bovril and have a passion for Sushi.

To me, a person is defined in large parts by their likes and dislikes.
It reflects their view on the world and in turn their cultural fit in
an organization. Some preferences are more relevant than others, so
while sharing food preferences would perhaps make it easier to gel for
lunch breaks, your choice of computing environment tells me something
about your approach to software development.

For the type of applications 37signals (and others in the same sphere)
pursue, Apple are on many fronts a role model. The shared appreciation
of Apple's products is an important component of the company culture.
Just like a shared appreciation of the open source benefits is an
important component.

The mash of shared values, aspirations, and appreciations creates a
unity that makes it easier to operate efficiently. We can communicate
by alluding to references and settle arguments by drawing on
authoritarian examples.

As such, I'm a bit surprised by the apparent controversial nature of
the original posting. Sure, it was worded with enough sting to likely
cause a reaction. But that 37signals, and companies in general, base
hiring decisions on a sound technical/cultural/political fit surprise
me to come as a surprise.

While raw programming talent most certainly is an important facet of
the hiring game, it is by far not the only one. Or even the most
important one. I'd take a good programmer with a good fit on the three
axis as described above any day over a superstar with a bad fit.
Rails will be bigger and better with a strong Windows community. As
will any other OSS. Given you claim there is a political stance in
your choice, your choice is actively working against the widest
possible adoption of OSS.

I heartily welcome a strong Windows community on Rails. In part because
I see getting on Rails as a great way of in turn getting people onto OS
X/'nix. Just as I see getting on Rails as an introduction to Ruby.

And while being on Windows doesn't help your chances getting a job at
37signals, it doesn't mean that I devalue your clever patches or other
contributions to Rails. I believe you would be a happier and more
productive participant if you were doing it from a platform like OS X,
but if that's not in the cards (for lack of funds, corporate policies,
or whatever), I'll cope.

In other words, to use or contribute to Rails doesn't require as close
a TCP fit as I would demand from a coworker. I believe you're going to
have a more enjoyable ride in that community if the fit _is_ closer,
but it's not a permission pass.

As an example of good fit, I don't think it's a surprise that pretty
much all of the Rails core contributors are Mac users. That Rails heavy
shops like Robot Coop (43 Things), Combustion Labs, and others are
using Macs. Of course they didn't have to, but it was a natural fit.
For some, most appropriate may include a quasi-political stance, which
seems to be your case. Don't make the mistake that everyone makes
software decisions on those lines.

Oh, I know they don't. The market share of the predominate OS in the
world hasn't eluded me :). I am saying that I have a much harder time
relating to (and in some cases understanding) people who choose that
path.
Final comment. Why didn't you write something intelligible like the
posting you made here rather than the stuff on the blog that caused
this bother?

The conclusions you choose to draw from a handful of paragraphs in a
blog posting are your own. But okay, I concede that a longer posting
not written at 4:22 AM would have had a larger chance of explaining my
position in full. I don't know if it would have caused less of a stir,
but perhaps there would have been fewer questions about motives.

I also readily concede the provocative nature of the posting. I believe
that the way forward consists of both some rubbing against and with the
furs. Since my threshold on personal attacks (arrogant, stupid,
stubborn, childish, ridiculous) is pretty high, I'm okay taking
aggressive push-back on controversial stances.

And there's nothing like a spring cleansing :). Just as the
temperatures in Denmark are rising from just a couple into the tens. A
change of season. Maybe you should consider the occasion ripe to do a
chance of computing environment? I know this great platform... oh,
wait. My evangelistic record looped. Sorry about that. Should be at
least 3 months before we try a replay from a different angle.
 
M

Matt Lawrence

Can we all just get back to talking about Ruby?

At least David didn't admit to being a member of Mensa :)

-- Matt
Nothing great was ever accomplished without _passion_
 
C

Curt Hibbs

Well put David! This is exactly what I had hoped you meant in your
original post.

Curt
 
M

Mark Probert

Hi ..

Mark Probert ha scritto:

sorry, but is'nt winNT based on the everything is a object?

I am not sure, however I seem to recall that it was developed more along the
lines of the VAX VMS than Unix. I think that BeOS is another object OS,
though I am not sure of that either.
 
J

Jay Levitt

As an example of good fit, I don't think it's a surprise that pretty
much all of the Rails core contributors are Mac users.

Darn it.. you're going to make me contribute just to prove you wrong,
aren't you?
 
B

Bill Kelly

From: "Stephen Kellett said:
Identify the statement that isn't true. Overpriced: Lots of others have
given examples. The other two statements are facts.

Disclaimer: I develop on Windows, OS X, and Linux... All
three have characteristics I like, and dislike...

It's true Macs ship with a one-button mouse. But I have a
two-button Logitech w/ scroll wheel hooked up to the Mac
here... both buttons + the scroll wheel are functional.
(So if one can afford $15 for a third party mouse, the one-
button thing is a non-issue.)

Regarding the degree to which Macs are a proprietary
system: I do like that their operating system core is Open
Source. I think that's pretty cool.
( http://developer.apple.com/darwin/projects/darwin/ )
( download source:
rsync -vL "darwinsource.opendarwin.org::darwinsource/10.3.8/*.tar.gz" ./ )

So to me that makes OS X significantly less proprietary
than Windows. (At least as far as software goes. Maybe
you were referring to hardware.)


In any case, ..... MY AMIGA CAN BEAT UP YOUR ATARI-ST !!!

Just kidding,

Regards,

Bill
 
D

David Heinemeier Hansson

As an example of good fit, I don't think it's a surprise that pretty
Darn it.. you're going to make me contribute just to prove you wrong,
aren't you?

Actually, we have a ton of patches coming from Windows users. But
please do join the party :).

By core, I was referring to people like Jeremy Kemper, Tobias Luekte,
Florian Weber, Sam Stephenson, Jamis Buck, and Scott Baron that all
have contributed substantial and continued parts of Rails. Enough to be
considered core contributors.

They are not the only core contributors, though. People like Marcel
Molina and Nicholas Seckar are contributing from Linux. And we've had
plenty of big and important patches from Windows users too. Not just
code, but people like Curt Hibbs have been doing a great job
documenting/evangelizing.

So. Again. I don't hate Windows people :). I just don't understand the
willful choice of that operating system in the defined context. And I'd
wish more of them would switch.

That should conclude my comments on the subject.
 
D

Dick Davies

* Mark Probert said:
[ on as-400s ]
Taken an axe to them is close :)

You'd be there a while :)
I wish I could remember the origins of the quote I heard somewhere during an
'intel/amd clock cycle pissing contest' somewhere on usenet. Some grizzled vet
piped up with:

"They're not real computers.
A real computer is one that would kill you if it fell on you"
 

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments. After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.

Ask a Question

Members online

Forum statistics

Threads
473,770
Messages
2,569,584
Members
45,075
Latest member
MakersCBDBloodSupport

Latest Threads

Top