The ONLY thing that prevents me from using Python

[Kevin]

I have been using java (jsp/servlets), vb/asp and perl for a few years.
Almost all my projects are web site development related, and many of my
clients' web sites are hosted on those shared web hosting services.

The problem is that it's difficult to find hosting services with Python
installed and supported. And most hosting companies are reluctant to
install it for you because they don't want to do the extra work(they
would always say to me, why don't you use php or java or asp or per?).
I have searched and found some companies that support Python. But still
there are far few choices than other options.

I am sure this issue has already been raised a billion times. I just
feel very frustrated on this. I want to learn and use Python in my web
projects.

One day in last December I decided to learn Python, because of Bruce
Eckel's recommendation on his web site (I started java with his book).
After writing a few scripts (each with a hundred lines or less), I
really liked Python, even though at first to me, it has a very
different style and mindset from my accustomed java approach. I enjoyed
the experience and was ready to delve into the OO and other aspect of
Python.

But because of the hosting issue, I stopped and since then have spent
more time on php, and it seems that I would soon become a full time
PHPer now.

I really wish Python could be more widely available on web server
machines. This is just my own experience and I would like to hear your
comments.

 

[Bill Mill]

I really wish Python could be more widely available on web server
machines. This is just my own experience and I would like to hear your
comments.

I would like a pony... no, wait, even better, a unicorn!

Peace
Bill Mill
bill.mill at gmail.com

PS (the gist is, why don't you offer some constructive comments,
instead of ones we can do nothing about?)

 

[Benji York]

I have been using java (jsp/servlets), vb/asp and perl for a few years.
Almost all my projects are web site development related, and many of my
clients' web sites are hosted on those shared web hosting services.

The problem is that it's difficult to find hosting services with Python
installed and supported.

See http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonHosting and remember that Google
is your friend.

 

[Istvan Albert]

There are plenty of webhosts that offer python, do a little research.

 

[Terry Reedy]

The problem is that it's difficult to find hosting services with Python
installed and supported.

The Python Wiki has lists of both free and commercial hosting services.
The top page is http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonHosting. Did you look at
these? Are the choices inadequate? (I have no idea, never having been
involved with the subject.)
....

I am sure this issue has already been raised a billion times.

Yes, that is why the wiki pages were added. Improvements are welcome, I
presume.
.....

I really wish Python could be more widely available on web server
machines. This is just my own experience and I would like to hear your
comments.

We all wish that. But in my ignorance, I wonder why the few that there are
are so insufficient that you would drop Python (for PHP, no less). Do
clients require that you use specific hosting services, even though they do
not host a preferred package? Do the few Python hosters that there are,
knowing that they are few, exploit Python developers with high rates or
other obnoxious policies? This issue has been raised enough that I really
am curious.

Terry J. Reedy

 

[Roy Smith]

The problem is that it's difficult to find hosting services with Python
installed and supported.

I just googled for ["web hosting" python] and got 1,250,000 hits. I
can personally recommend panix.com, but there's plenty of other
choices too.

 

[Martin P. Hellwig]

Kevin wrote:
<cut, can't get as many python web hosters as I want>

Well, for some strange reason I have never found that to be a problem.
But that is perhaps because I'm an administrator and I want full root
access, install the OS as I see fit and don't want others on the same
(virtual)box. So hosting doesn't work for me I need colo or dedicated.

Mostly I slap DragonFlyBSD( or NetBSD if the other doesn't run smoothly)
with PostgreSQL, Mod_python/Apache and some other handy tools like
tripwire. The advantage is that I am the administrator, the
dis-advantage is that I am the administrator .

Here in the Netherlands I can get 1HE colo for 95EUR/month, a reasonable
price IMO.

You can always rent space at different providers (for fail-over) install
the machines just as your like it and rerent your own shared web
hosting. Then you can have all the goodies you want and still be in the
price range of comparible hosters.

 

[Kevin]

Thank you all for the messages. I agree with Bill on that I was just
whining here. I should do a bit more research.

I guess I am just getting accustomed to the endless supplies of asp/php
hosting services. All I need to do is shopping for the lowest
price/good service. But it's not the case for Python, so for a newbie
like me it's a little discouraging. Now I have more information I will
look into it, and hopefully can pick up Phthon again. To tell you the
truth, after perl, java, vb, and (some) php and groovy, I want to
settle down on something (along with java). That maybe the reason of my
frustration.

 

[Magnus Lycka]

Kevin wrote:
<cut, can't get as many python web hosters as I want>

Well, for some strange reason I have never found that to be a problem.

If you develop software for an external customer, and they have
an existing web site run by some ISP that you have no control over,
this might well be a problem.

Even if the customer is in control of their web servers, it might be
difficult to convince them to install and maintain something like
Python on them.

I find it a bit surprising that so many people on comp.lang.python
don't realize what kind of practical complications most commercial
software developers have to struggle with if they don't just follow
the mainstream and use PHP or Java for all web apps.

My ISP (FS Data in Sweden) has Python installed, and always upgraded
it when I asked them (but only then, so I suspect I'm the only user--
and this is one of the biggest ISPs in Sweden).

Even if I have access to Python, they don't allow me to have my own
long running processes, so I'm stuck with CGI, which wouldn't work
very well with a much higher load than my moin has. (Actually, I
didn't really need more, so I haven't asked for mod_python support
etc.)

Colocation is certainly getting much cheaper, my ISP charges much less
than 95EUR/month.(295 SEK). Still, it would certainly be great if
mod_python, twisted and zope support etc would be as common as mod_perl
or PHP support. We can only get that if we actively ask for it, and if
we really favour vendors that provide this support when we can.

 

[Martin P. Hellwig]

If you develop software for an external customer, and they have
an existing web site run by some ISP that you have no control over,
this might well be a problem.

Yes indeed there are a *load of companies not interested in technology
they just want a fancier web page then their rivals, for them this is
definitely a problem well actually it's a problem for the developer.
Do you tell the client to do it your way or do you do it their way.
It all depends, I work in and for non-profit organization so I mostly I
can do what I think is the best solution. I'll explain that and what the
advantage or dis-advantage is of all different possibilities.

Even if the customer is in control of their web servers, it might be
difficult to convince them to install and maintain something like
Python on them.

I find it a bit surprising that so many people on comp.lang.python
don't realize what kind of practical complications most commercial
software developers have to struggle with if they don't just follow
the mainstream and use PHP or Java for all web apps.

Yeah well, I remember that I had a hard time getting java support
instead of cgi alone, then somewhat later I've had that with perl and
PHP and whatever, it always feels like playing catch up.
I really had it with all that begging to get this or that supported.
I've been bitten so many times over support issues that it isn't even
funny anymore, so in the end I realized that the only way to get it down
in a acceptable way is to do it myself or source it to a small company
that needs the customer.

My ISP (FS Data in Sweden) has Python installed, and always upgraded
it when I asked them (but only then, so I suspect I'm the only user--
and this is one of the biggest ISPs in Sweden).

As I said above, I found it more likely to get support from smaller
companies then the bigger ones.

Even if I have access to Python, they don't allow me to have my own
long running processes, so I'm stuck with CGI, which wouldn't work
very well with a much higher load than my moin has. (Actually, I
didn't really need more, so I haven't asked for mod_python support
etc.)

Colocation is certainly getting much cheaper, my ISP charges much less
than 95EUR/month.(295 SEK). Still, it would certainly be great if
mod_python, twisted and zope support etc would be as common as mod_perl
or PHP support. We can only get that if we actively ask for it, and if
we really favour vendors that provide this support when we can.

But overall I must say the I agree with you, and that this chicken/egg
problem can only be resolved by further popularity of python.

 

[Paul McGuire]

Just because a hosting service doesn't list Python on their web page
doesn't mean that it's not available. My company's service
(LunarPages) supports Python, and only recently has it started
appearing on their online literature.

Once you find your service based on price/support/etc., send them an
e-mail asking for Python support. The worst they can say is "no, and
we never will," but just as likely they might respond "yes, it's
already there" or "yes, we can add that".

-- Paul

 

[fuzzylollipop]

lazy newbie programmers, that is what the world needs more of for sure!

 

[D H]

I would highly recommend user-mode linux (UML) hosting, like bytemark or
Linode: http://user-mode-linux.sourceforge.net/uses.html

Starting around the same price as average shared hosting, you get your
own virtual linux box (i recommend debian), on which you can install
java, mod_python, php, mono, jabber, or whatever you need. You are no
longer subject to the whims of the hosting provider, with respect to
things like which version of PHP they support, or how many mysql
databases you can create.

 

[Mike Meyer]

Once you find your service based on price/support/etc., send them an
e-mail asking for Python support. The worst they can say is "no, and
we never will," but just as likely they might respond "yes, it's
already there" or "yes, we can add that".

The only way ISPs will find out that Python is popular is if potential
customers tell them they need it. So if they say no, be *sure* and
tell them you won't be using them because of that.

<mike

 

[EP]

The only way ISPs will find out that Python is popular is if potential
customers tell them they need it. So if they say no, be *sure* and
tell them you won't be using them because of that.

I think this is an issue of critical mass, but I know minds the like of this group will immediate see that something as general as critical mass can be further reduced.

Point being, all one needs is critical mass at a given point to overcome the inertia at that point.

By overcoming inertia, and getting change at that point, if that point is visible to other major points, you can change thought on the larger scale.


<warning, some elements of this message may be considered commercial and or troublemaking in nature>

Personally, my current needs are sub collocation or dedicated server. In respect of a good ISP (though I may be breaking all usenet etiquette by mentioning a specific hosting company), I have been treated well by Zettai.net (Zope, Plone, Python + the usual other languages) -- and I get a lot of value there. I have no desire to move. Good people, and nice hosting if you like Unix.

However, I would really like to see Python hosting part of the normal competitive hosting landscape, at least for the reasons mentioned --- sometimes we do not get to pick the host. What percent of the commercial hosting servers will my (Python) code run on? It is a small number, I think.


So, if this issue were going to get some attention from some Pythonistas, what are the 2,3 or 5 hosting companies we would most like to see Python hosting offered by? And what are their e-mail addresses?


I would certainly nominate GoDaddy.com ([email protected]), who haves done a tremendous job on domain name registration, and may end up with a very large footprint in the (recently launched) hosting business. Python should definitely run on their servers (filers?). For the betterment of mankind.


Anyway, just a thought.

EP

 

[Paul Rubin]

The only way ISPs will find out that Python is popular is if potential
customers tell them they need it. So if they say no, be *sure* and
tell them you won't be using them because of that.

I think the issue is low cost web hosts, not ISP's. PHP is much more
available than Python among low cost hosts because those languages let
multiple user scripts run in the same process without being able to
mess with each others' data. That means the hosting service can run a
single Apache instance with mod_php and thousands of virtual hosts all
on the same IP address without needing to fork new processes for every
user script. I'm not sure if mod_perl is the same way.

Some hosts do let you use perl cgi's, forking a new process for every
script invocation, and those hosts may as well also offer Python. But
I think the really cheap hosts don't let you use any cgi's.

 

[Chris Smith]

Kevin> I have been using java (jsp/servlets), vb/asp and perl for
Kevin> a few years. Almost all my projects are web site
Kevin> development related, and many of my clients' web sites are
Kevin> hosted on those shared web hosting services.

Kevin> The problem is that it's difficult to find hosting services
Kevin> with Python installed and supported. And most hosting
Kevin> companies are reluctant to install it for you because they
Kevin> don't want to do the extra work(they would always say to
Kevin> me, why don't you use php or java or asp or per?). I have
Kevin> searched and found some companies that support Python. But
Kevin> still there are far few choices than other options.

Kevin> I am sure this issue has already been raised a billion
Kevin> times. I just feel very frustrated on this. I want to learn
Kevin> and use Python in my web projects.

Kevin> One day in last December I decided to learn Python, because
Kevin> of Bruce Eckel's recommendation on his web site (I started
Kevin> java with his book). After writing a few scripts (each
Kevin> with a hundred lines or less), I really liked Python, even
Kevin> though at first to me, it has a very different style and
Kevin> mindset from my accustomed java approach. I enjoyed the
Kevin> experience and was ready to delve into the OO and other
Kevin> aspect of Python.

Kevin> But because of the hosting issue, I stopped and since then
Kevin> have spent more time on php, and it seems that I would soon
Kevin> become a full time PHPer now.

Kevin> I really wish Python could be more widely available on web
Kevin> server machines. This is just my own experience and I would
Kevin> like to hear your comments.

Not to be a shill, but I'd be interested in testimonials on
http://linode.org/
I wonder if virtualization is the next killer app.
Certainly blows the WTF my ISP? question away...
-Chris

 

[Richie Hindle]

[Chris]

Not to be a shill, but I'd be interested in testimonials on
http://linode.org/
I wonder if virtualization is the next killer app.
Certainly blows the WTF my ISP? question away...

I can't speak for linode.org, but I have a Xen VPS from rimuhosting.com
and it's early days but so far I've been very impressed. It's $19/mo
(normally $20 but they kindly gave me a 5% Open Source Developer discount)
which is not that much more than a decent shared hosting account. You
need to be comfortable with administering your own Linux box, but these
days that's not difficult. (NB. entrian.com is not running on it yet.)

 

[Paul Rubin]

I can't speak for linode.org, but I have a Xen VPS from rimuhosting.com
and it's early days but so far I've been very impressed. It's $19/mo
(normally $20 but they kindly gave me a 5% Open Source Developer discount)

Do you get enough resources in that minimal-cost configuration to run
significant Python applications?

 

[D H]

Do you get enough resources in that minimal-cost configuration to run
significant Python applications?

Yes, you get more than enough to run python apps. You have to know how
to run your own linux box though, including installing and configuring
any extra software you want (with debian it's very easy using 'sudo
apt-get'). Mod_python for example and apache2.

I would look for a minimum 64mb ram, 3 gigs hd space, and minimum 15
gigs transfer/mo. At $20/mo, rimuhosting gives you 96mb ram, 4gig
space, and 30gigs transfer/mo. So that does look like a good deal.

(I don't use or work with any UML hosting provider. I used to have
Bytemark, and it was great, although it looks like rimu and others may
offer more for your buck now)

The catch is the RAM restriction, which you might run into if you have
huge mysql databases or whatever, and hard drive access is a slower than
on a dedicated server. But I never noticed any slowdowns or ran into
ram limitations.