What is joone?

[Roedy Green]

If, a person starts a new thread, which is either of little interest,
irrelevant or obvious, then I suggest that you do not send a reply and leave
it be.

That is the first time I have heard that suggested as netiquette. I
think it would actually be a dangerous practice. You can see the
result in newsgroups where people did not jitter at posters to
maintain a certain standard of relevancy. They become like newsgroup
slums and eventually the people who contribute move away.

You can also go too far in the other direction, scaring people away
with too much prissiness.

Usually the problem is people jumping in posting without first reading
any posts to get feel for the local customs of a newsgroup. This
leads to some awkward moments before they get the hang of what is
expected.

The troll's purpose is disruption or irritating others to give them
some drama. The best way to handle them is plonking since they know
perfectly well what they are doing

There is an amusing website with cartoons that characterises various
net denizens. You can get at it via
http://mindprod.com/jgloss/flame.html
..

 

[Roedy Green]

I was not familiar with neural networks
and dont know what neural engine is.

You probably studied now networks of neurons worked in biology. Neural
nets are the electronic analogy. They can of course switch much more
quickly. You can also simulate them in software.

Let's say you were training a neural net to recognise faces.

You perturb the functions controlling the strengths of the
interconnections of the "neurons". If it gets faces correct, you
"reward" the net. It then strengthens the connections that just
fired. If it gets it wrong, you "punish" it. The net then weaken the
connections that just fired.

In the brain, whether a neuron fires depends on the soup of
neurotransmitters put into the synapse by other neurons. In an
electronic net, you are simulating such logic with functions that may
be based for example on the recent firing frequency of some other
neuron.

The interesting thing is the net can create it its own algorithm for
face matching that no human has a clue how it works. It can then
miraculously recognise new pictures of the faces in its learned set.

This as an oversimplfication. You need to study up on neural nets
before you get into the fine details of how you simulate one in Java.

For what you are about to do, you probably want to go to the library
and read a book on them.

 

[Thomas Weidenfeller]

Either help or leave it be.

Telling someone he should get his lazy arse up and first do his homework
is helping him to become a better programmer. Also telling someone to
write complete words and sentences is helping him to improve his
communication style.

And, it was the OP who started the rudeness. He insulted us by treating
us like his search engine slaves and personal consultants. Even you
couldn't be bothered to answer him.

So what exactly is your problem?

There are people
dying in the world you know.

Oh, and don't forget about the children! Would someone please think
about the childen!?

/Thomas

 

[primeattheark via JavaKB.com]

Also telling someone to
write complete words and sentences is helping him to improve his
communication style.

Okay........ I will try to do better in future.

And, it was the OP who started the rudeness. He insulted us by treating
us like his search engine slaves and personal consultants. Even you
couldn't be bothered to answer him.

So to answer him with rudeness is a more valid reason to send a message than
to support him. I only entered the fray to offer a little support.

You are only his consult if you answer him.

So what exactly is your problem?

Well I have this irritation between my toes. I thought it was some athletes
foot and I tried some.... Oh, sorry I thought we were talking about something
else.

Oh, and don't forget about the children! Would someone please think
about the childen!?

/Thomas

Aaaa.... okay. My point was that people should not be so serious about this.


An interesting point was made earlier by Roedy Green:

That is the first time I have heard that suggested as netiquette.

I did mean just general etiquette, sorry.

I think it would actually be a dangerous practice. You can see the
result in newsgroups where people did not jitter at posters to
maintain a certain standard of relevancy. They become like newsgroup
slums and eventually the people who contribute move away.

Good point. Is there no other ways of persuasion than pestering? Perhaps an
extra 'Posting Rule'?

 

[java]

hey guys,
I never thought my doubt will create these kinds of responses...well, i
got my answer and I was not treating you people as slaves or something
like that.....Sorry if I asked my doubt in a rude way...

Regards..

 

[Alex Hunsley]

Sorry, but *do* you know what Netiquette is?

Yes, only too well.

If, a person starts a new thread, which is either of little interest,
irrelevant or obvious, then I suggest that you do not send a reply and leave
it be.

If a person appears to have a problem either with knowing to (or how to)
use a search engine, or a problem with making it clear what their
original problem is, addressing this is always on topic. Likewise,
netiquette is always on-topic.


I may not be directly helping the guy by spoon feeding him whatever it
is that he wants to know (which is hard to tell from his vague
question), but I am ultimately helping him in other ways (see below).
And also, other people may be reading who may get something from this
exchange. Usenet is never just about the original poster and the replier
- others can benefit too.

Here's a little story to illustrate matters:

You're walking out in the sticks and you find a guy at his farm who
tells you that he is running out of food (although he doesn't even seem
to be making much of an effort to communicate clearly - he mumbles a
bit, but you realise that this is lazyness rather than the effects of
ill health etc., and forget about it, despite it being distracting).
Luckily, you have a few things with you. You have a sack with some food
in it, and you also have a hoe and a few other farming tools with you,
going spare. So which do you give him?

Options:

A) you give him the food, helping him to put off starvation a little
longer. What then? He has to wait for another well wisher to come along
and leave him some food. His survival this way is looking tenuous, and
he is relying on the good will of others who may or may not even turn up.

B) you give him the farming tools and maybe some advice on how to use
them. This empowers him - he becomes master of providing his own food.
He becomes more independent. Not only are other people in the world
putting less of their into food him, but one day he might even have a
good farm, and feed other people!


Do you propose the A) option for the original poster? Do you not think
B) is ultimately for the best?
If we can teach him something about asking a clearer question, or about
how to find the answer to the question for himself, everyone wins. He
wins, because he is empowered to help himself; and the newsgroup wins,
because there will be less vague/obviously web searchable questions
kicking about (from him, and perhaps from other readers who got
something from the exchange).

I am surprised by some of the comments in this page.

I'm not.

People should not get so personal over something so trivial. There are people
dying in the world you know.

Usenet can seem harsh sometimes. But this isn't personal. I am trying to
help this guy. It's constructive criticism.

Are you fairly new to usenet, btw?
Veterans of usenet tend to seem abrupt sometimes. It's not usually any
intended rudeness, just the way of things.

Either help or leave it be.

We *were* helping, as detailed above.

No offence meant (honest).

Rob

None taken! I hope that you can see that some people do have some
interest in helping this guy, even if it's not the help he (or you)
envisaged...

 

[Alex Hunsley]

ok i am sorry for the way i asked my doubts...
Recently only i heard about google groups and joined ....
I have seen many topics ,people asking their doubts ,never caring about
how they should write,whether in a formal or informal way....

The style that people use on Usenet varies from group to group. Some
groups will have a lot of informal txt style writing. In others, it's
the norm to communicate using plain English.

This is why newsgroup FAQs are so handy - they can answer questions
about newsgroups you're interested in reading/posting to, before you post.

So perhaps try the mini-FAQ at
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/computer-lang/java/help/minifaq/
(and I suggest you follow the link from there to Jon Skeet's page on
"How to get answers on the comp.lang.java.* newsgroups" - worth reading).

So i just copied their way ..
Next time i wont repeat this ...
And I am preparing to do my seminar in my college..and I selected this
topic....it was suggested by my friend...My friend only gave me the
idea to ask doubts here.....

Asking questions is fine, but find out more about the best way to ask
questions, and indeed what questions you should be asking!

I was not familiar with neural networks
and dont know what neural engine is....

Ah, now we're getting somewhere. Your original post doesn't say this -
it just says that you want a brief description of Joone. So your problem
really is that you don't understand neural networks/engines - so try and
find out more about that!
(Perhaps part of your misunderstand is that you thought that neural
networks and engines are necessarily something to with Joone - they
aren't - they're subjects and concepts in their own right, and Joone
just happens to be one implementation/system that addresses these concepts.)

Anyways thanks to all who cared
to reply...
Sorry if I annoyed u..

You didn't particuarly annoy us, we just want to help you get better
with getting help!

 

[Lasse Reichstein Nielsen]

ok i am sorry for the way i asked my doubts...
Recently only i heard about google groups and joined ....

Ah, then welcome to Usenet, a networked system of discussion groups
that has nothing in particular to do with Google or Google Groups,
except that they are just one more node in the network.

Usenet have existed since 1979, and in (mostly) its current form since
1986. There's a lot of history and a lot of accumulated practices and
etiquettes that a newcomer will run into (and Google Groups does little
to help there).

I have seen many topics ,people asking their doubts ,never caring about
how they should write,whether in a formal or informal way....

Google Groups carry both Usenet groups and their own, undistributed,
groups. The latter is often created by a single person for his or
her needs, and accepted behavior differs widely.

On Usenet groups, there is also differing idea about how to write
between groups, but there is one way, the most traditional, that's
pretty sure not to get you into trouble. It's also the one recommended
by the FAQ of this group:
<URL:http://jibbering.com/faq/#FAQ2_3>
It's generally recommended to read a group for "a while" (between a
week and a month back) before posting yourself. It allows you to get
a feel for the group and which questions are on-topic, and get a chance
to find the FAQ and read it.

There are no moderators or maintainers on Usenet (well, there are in
moderated groups, but most groups are not moderated). If the
participants of a group wants a particular posting style or tone or
any other non-technically-enforcable behavior, they must police
it themselves. That is why people react so (apparently) strongly to
people not following this recommendation - it's what they (we) want
people reading for a week or a month to get a feel for the group
to see. Letting it slip is far too easy

So i just copied their way ..
Next time i wont repeat this ...

Good. Remember, you are only one person writing, but there could be
thousands of people reading it, so an extra minute spend making your
post more readable is easily saved at the other end if each reader
doesn't have to spend five extra seconds guessing what you mean.

And if you still use Google Groups as your interface to newsgroups,
I recommend reading this:
<URL:http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/>
Otherwise, I recommend using a real newsreader, like Agent, XNews or
even Outlook/Outlook Expresss (but if using O/OE, read
<URL:http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/> and

And I am preparing to do my seminar in my college..and I selected this
topic....it was suggested by my friend...My friend only gave me the
idea to ask doubts here..... I was not familiar with neural networks
and dont know what neural engine is....

Me neither.

Anyways thanks to all who cared to reply...
Sorry if I annoyed u..

Not badly. I do get somewhat annoyed by phonetic abbreviations (like
"y" for "why" and "u" for "you" and "4" for "for"). I'm not a native
English speaker, so it is an extra step for me to pronounce the letter
in English and match it to the pronounciation of a word that fits into
the sentence. Perhaps it is to native English speakers too, it's just
a bigger step for me (and other non-native English speakers too, I'll
wager). Capitalize, punctuate and spell it out, and a lot of us are
much more likely to be willing to spend the time reading it (so, it's
really for your own good .

/L

 

[Lasse Reichstein Nielsen]

<URL:http://jibbering.com/faq/#FAQ2_3>

Ooops, sorry, wrong FAQ (but the recommendation in that one is good
too).
Here is something more local:
<URL:http://www.yoda.arachsys.com/java/newsgroups.html>

/L

 

[Luc The Perverse]

Sorry, but *do* you know what Netiquette is?

If, a person starts a new thread, which is either of little interest,
irrelevant or obvious, then I suggest that you do not send a reply and
leave
it be.

I am surprised by some of the comments in this page.

People should not get so personal over something so trivial. There are
people
dying in the world you know.

Either help or leave it be.

No offence meant (honest).

I don't want to hear about Netiquette from someone who doesn't know how to
properly bottom post

 

[Luc The Perverse]

hey guys,
I never thought my doubt will create these kinds of responses...well, i
got my answer and I was not treating you people as slaves or something
like that.....Sorry if I asked my doubt in a rude way...

Regards..

You're fine - the responses in this thread are typical.

We don't have a problem with you - it's people that keep doing stuff that we
ask them not to that bother use

 

[Roedy Green]

Good point. Is there no other ways of persuasion than pestering? Perhaps an
extra 'Posting Rule'?

I usually point somebody to http://mindprod.com/jgloss/newsgroups.html
when they are new and I see them heading for hot water. If they take
the hint they will stay out of trouble. If they take this as an
affront, usually they get themselves in a dogfight with several
people.

I have speculated that since this is an international group, there are
people here who have servants. They tend to relate to others on the
newsgroup as if they were paid servants who could be ordered about.
Perhaps they imagine fellow posters are Google employees. Perhaps
they are accustomed to deferential treatment due them by wealth or
birth.

This REALLY gets the backs up of the North Americans. Those are the
disputes where the fur flies. There is a fierce belief in essential
equality. If there is any special status, it has to be earned through
unusual knowledge or cleverness at problem solving. It does not come
from wealth or social standing outside the newsgroup.

I don't think there is much hope of asking North Americans not to
snarl when treated as servants.

The people here who contribute most love Java and love teaching others
about it. They have spent thousands of hours studying themselves and
working on problems. It is a slap across the face when someone says
words to the effect" "I have no interest in Java. I have just have to
pass the course. I want to do it by faking and without effort. You
HAVE to help me do this".

The natural reaction is to slap the twit silly. I often point them to
http://mindprod.com/jgloss/homework.html which both argues why this is
not a wise thing to do and what you can do to solve a tough homework
problem.

Why should anyone help you do something so self-destructive? And why
would they be OBLIGATED to do something so counter to their own
values? Who the hell are you that others are obligated to do your
learning for you?

 

[primeattheark via JavaKB.com]

I usually point somebody to http://mindprod.com/jgloss/newsgroups.html
when they are new and I see them heading for hot water. If they take
the hint they will stay out of trouble. If they take this as an
affront, usually they get themselves in a dogfight with several
people.

I guess not a good idea if they are new to this. However I think the mindprod
article is asking for trouble when it states:

"If you insist on playing helpless, use a female signature, something that
subliminally suggests youth, incompetence and sexual availability, e.g.
Brandi, Sherri, Rykkii or Beertha de Bourbon. There are still suckers for
that lame dodge."

I actually know some women I work with that would go stark raving bonkers at
this statement.

I have speculated that since this is an international group, there are
people here who have servants. They tend to relate to others on the
newsgroup as if they were paid servants who could be ordered about.
Perhaps they imagine fellow posters are Google employees. Perhaps
they are accustomed to deferential treatment due them by wealth or
birth.

This REALLY gets the backs up of the North Americans. Those are the
disputes where the fur flies. There is a fierce belief in essential
equality. If there is any special status, it has to be earned through
unusual knowledge or cleverness at problem solving. It does not come
from wealth or social standing outside the newsgroup.

You cannot just assume people will know this winds North Americans up. It
needs to be put in ‘black and white’, more prominently than buried within
'Netiquette Guidelines' on a web site.

I don't think there is much hope of asking North Americans not to
snarl when treated as servants.

I understand the anger. But, like you have said previously it needs to be
tempered and not so severe that it puts people off.

The people here who contribute most love Java and love teaching others
about it. They have spent thousands of hours studying themselves and
working on problems. It is a slap across the face when someone says
words to the effect" "I have no interest in Java. I have just have to
pass the course. I want to do it by faking and without effort. You
HAVE to help me do this".

People getting angry will not stop this.

The natural reaction is to slap the twit silly. I often point them to
http://mindprod.com/jgloss/homework.html which both argues why this is
not a wise thing to do and what you can do to solve a tough homework
problem.

A mature and constructive opinion. It is a pity others are not as
constructive.

Why should anyone help you do something so self-destructive? And why
would they be OBLIGATED to do something so counter to their own
values? Who the hell are you that others are obligated to do your
learning for you?

At the risk of repeating myself, there must be a better way of handling this.
If someone is deliberately being lazy, cheating or otherwise. Would it not be
better to introduce some way of binning the thread. E.g.: if X number of
users vote the thread as irrelevant or inappropriate.

You have asked in other postings if I am new. I am not so much new more
inexperienced at posting. I tend to read what others have written.

I know I stirred a bit of a hornets nest here. But it was the first time I
saw what appeared to be a little unfair treatment of a new user.

I don't think I would had so much of a reaction if I had not used the word
'Netiquette'

Thank you for your input and an apology to Alex I was a bit 'harsh' at first.

As the Vorlon says 'Understanding is a 3 edged sword'.

Rob

 

[Roedy Green]

You cannot just assume people will know this winds North Americans up. It
needs to be put in ‘black and white’, more prominently than buried within
'Netiquette Guidelines' on a web site.

It is stated there, in slightly different words.

"Posts of the form "I asked this question a hour ago and I still have
not got an answer. This newsgroup sucks." are more likely to get you
put in killfiles than to spur an answer. Get it into your head. You
are not entitled to an answer no matter how badly you may need it. If
you receive one, it is because some stranger decided to give you a
gift of his or her time. Everyone who answers questions is giving you
a gift that would you have to pay perhaps $25US for from a
subscription help desk. If you act like some precious little prince
ordering his servants about, you will soon find your questions
ignored."

 

[Stefan Ram]

Everyone who answers questions is giving you a gift that would
you have to pay perhaps $25US for from a subscription help
desk.

Psychologically, those giving answers must get back something
of about the same value, otherwise it just would not work,
they just would not do it.

When you work at a helpdesk, the customer chooses the time and
contents of his question and you have to give some answer.
Here, in the groups, you can choose which posts you answer and
when and which posts you ignore. Here you have the publicity
for your answers, at a helpdesk even the most ingenious answer
might be viewed by your customer only.

So, on one hand he has no entitlement to expect any answer
whatsoever in this group. On the other hand, if he gets an
answer, he does not have to show gratefulness to the equivalent
of USD 25.

 

[primeattheark via JavaKB.com]

It is stated there, in slightly different words.

I know, my point was: it is buried.

Get it into your head. You are not entitled to an answer no matter how badly you >may need it.

I am not saying that I must or deserve an answer. I neither want to treat
anyone like a servant

If you act like some precious little prince
ordering his servants about, you will soon find your questions
ignored."

That's a little harsh. I actually have not ordered or even asked anyone to do
anything. I just indulged in a conceptual discussion. If you are being
frustrated by this, I apologise and will stop it now. All I am doing now is
exploring the point.

I know this is a Java site this has just become interesting.

This is not about 'getting it into my head' it is about approaching the
subject from other angles. I do this with programming and any other element
of life. My intent is not to irritate anyone I have just found that even the
simplest of subjects have other avenues to explore. Stefan has produced
another opinion and this is all I am looking for.

Thank you for your comments.

Rob.

 

[Scott Ellsworth]

I like this approach because it relieves posters of any need to judge
whether a question is an attempt to cheat or not. [...] If they are
trying to cheat, they get lots of information that is useless to them.

Which does rather mean that you've wasted your own time. The usual tension
between generosity and scepticism...

Yes and no - even if the original poster is a cheater type, a good
question might apply to others as well.

(And it also depends on your guessing correctly about whether the questioner
/ought/ be asking for hints only -- if a working programmer looking for, say,
a
Skip List package, was referred only to the original paper (very readable,
btw), and given a couple of implementation hints, then they would be
justifiably disappointed.)

Also true, but if they are such, they will come back to the well if they
get good, but insufficient, information.

Scott