What percent of Java developers use Eclipse?

R

Robert M. Gary

IntelliJ has wizards that help you create your beans, J2EE objects, web
apps, etc. You tell it what you want and it creates code stubs for you
and configures any configuration file (web.xml, etc). At work, I take
IntelliJ hands down. At home, I'm not sure I want to pay $300 for an
IDE.

-Robert
 
R

Robert M. Gary

Funny, the bundles in Eclipse is what I don't like. I tried for 2 days
to get the JBoss plug-in and all its dependancies to work. I finally
found a JBoss Eclipse pre-compiled. For me, if I'm going to use
Eclipse, I'm going to want to find an Eclipse package that someone else
has spent weeks trying to get all the plug-ins to work.

-Robert
 
C

Chris Smith

Robert M. Gary said:
IntelliJ has wizards that help you create your beans, J2EE objects, web
apps, etc. You tell it what you want and it creates code stubs for you
and configures any configuration file (web.xml, etc). At work, I take
IntelliJ hands down. At home, I'm not sure I want to pay $300 for an
IDE.

I've never seen the need to invest a great amount of effort into
maintaining a web.xml file, or to purchase tools to do it. You write
the file once, and then move one.

If you're working on EJB-based applications, then yes you need tools to
handle the duplication inherent in the framework. XDoclet is marginally
sufficient, but IDE tools are better. I've always made it a point to
avoid work environments where marketing is the driving force behind
implementation decisions, so I am completely unfamiliar with any tools
for building EJBs in any environment. I can only say that I hear good
things about MyEclipse for the task.

It does appear that in terms of core features, IntelliJ is a nice
product. What it lacks, of course, is the sheer extent of flexibility
and extensibility of Eclipse... a characteristic that - at its core -
conflicts with providing a commercial product.

--
www.designacourse.com
The Easiest Way To Train Anyone... Anywhere.

Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
MindIQ Corporation
 
G

gevatron

Robert said:
Maybe its better now. When I used to use JDeveloper is was very, very,
very slow.

-Robert

JDeveloper is much better now - try out the 10.1.3 version from the
oracle site.
on-par with eclipse in terms of refactoring features, but much better
at support for enterprise J2EE, Web interface (JSF, JSP, Struts), XML,
databse and more.
http://oracle.com/technology/jdev
 
C

Chris Smith

Robert M. Gary said:
Funny, the bundles in Eclipse is what I don't like. I tried for 2 days
to get the JBoss plug-in and all its dependancies to work. I finally
found a JBoss Eclipse pre-compiled. For me, if I'm going to use
Eclipse, I'm going to want to find an Eclipse package that someone else
has spent weeks trying to get all the plug-ins to work.

Have you spent weeks getting plugins to work? I haven't, and I've got
Eclispe set up to do J2ME, C/C++, Perl, Scheme, Tomcat integration, EMF
and GEF, Subversion, profiling (with TPTP), and UML.

--
www.designacourse.com
The Easiest Way To Train Anyone... Anywhere.

Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
MindIQ Corporation
 
R

Robert M. Gary

IntelliJ has the same extensibility as Eclipse. In fact it has a wizard
to write IntelliJ plug-ins. There is also a wide variety of plug-ins
already written. I use several, including the Clearcase source control
one. Rather than have to actually go and check a file out, I just start
typing in IntelliJ and the plug-in does teh clearcase work.

-Robert
 
R

Robert M. Gary

Maybe its just Jboss. I installed and reinstalled several times. I used
teh Eclipse plug-in manager GUI but I still could never keep it from
just crashing. We've talked about moving our entire department over to
Eclipse (partially to save the IntelliJ renewal fees) but we would have
to have one person be in charge of setting up a working image.

-Robert
 
C

Chris Smith

Robert M. Gary said:
IntelliJ has the same extensibility as Eclipse.

I seriously doubt that. But yes, I realize that there are plugins for
IntelliJ.

--
www.designacourse.com
The Easiest Way To Train Anyone... Anywhere.

Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
MindIQ Corporation
 
A

aj

Mickey Segal said:
Do people find Eclipse to be a better environment or are they attracted by
it being free?

[snip]

Eclipse changed everything. Before Eclipse, we had to deal with crap like
JBuilder, and the God aweful Microsoft J++, haha. Eclipse set the new
standard, and like a previous poster said, it get's better everyday. If it
weren't for Eclipse, I bet we'd all still be wrestling with crap IDE's to
this day. The reason for it's long learning curve is because it's just so
damn configurable, but time well spent. I've never used a free product of
such high quality and I see no reason to switch to another IDE just because
it may be "catching up" to Eclipse's level no matter how quickly. In a
world where 99% of everything is crap, Eclipse is a breath of fresh air.
And the fact that it's free just makes it supernatural.
 
N

Nishad

Hi Robet,

Could you please tell how did you run the jboss in eclipse???
I am using Jboss 4.0.2 and eclipse 3.1. Which plugin i need to install
for running Jboss using my eclipse

Thanks
 
M

Missaka Wijekoon

Mickey said:
Do people find Eclipse to be a better environment or are they attracted by
it being free?
While getting started with Eclipse required a steep learning curve, I
find I love it. The configurability and wide variety of plugins makes it
a very powerful development environment. For our company, Eclipse is
proving to save huge amounts of man hours. Our software uses Java,
Perl, C, JSP/HTML/JavaScript and it is all on Eclipse. Also, Eclipse
integrated very easily with our existing CVS infrastructure.
 
I

iamfractal

Missaka Wijekoon skrev:

For our company, Eclipse is
proving to save huge amounts of man hours.

Hi, Missaka,

This sort of question always sounds contentious, but I'm just
interested: do you have a documentation to this effect?

I'd be keen to see some real-world figures of using one IDE over
another (or none at all).

Thanks,

..ed
 
B

bugbear

pkriens said:
In visual age I disliked the automatic compilation but in Eclipse it is
fast enough to become a real joy.

If I'm starting a major change around in a project,
it can be a coupla' hours during which compilation
of the project is not going to happen (as functionality,
methods, signatures etc changes).

I find it frustrating enough that most
java compilation is "whole project or nothing"
which means I can't (easily...) check that
mu changes are "OK" on a small subset of files.

The though of an IDE attempting to perform
continuous compilation in similar circumstances
is horrible.

Unless there's something I don't know.

You can't always refactor 1 (compilable...)
change at a time.

BugBear
 
C

Chris Uppal

bugbear said:

Interesting to ponder what /other/ reasons there can be for using Eclipse.

After studying the matter for, oh, all of 20 seconds, I came up with:

- because it's a requirement at our shop.

- because I'm stupid ;-)

- because "everyone" else does, and I think it better
to conform than to seek excellence.

- because I cannot currently afford the time/effort
required to switch to <x>.

Anything else ?

Note, BTW, that "better" does not necessarily imply "good".

-- chris
 
O

Oliver Wong

Missaka Wijekoon skrev:



Hi, Missaka,

This sort of question always sounds contentious, but I'm just
interested: do you have a documentation to this effect?

I'd be keen to see some real-world figures of using one IDE over
another (or none at all).

I can't actually give hard numbers, but I can list a few features I
would have liked back in University.

* Continuous compilation: At best, when you clicked "go", your IDE or
ANT task would recompile the whole project then and there, forcing you to
wait a bit. At worst, you were compiling manually from the command line (or
using ANT), and when your program behaved erratically, you asked yourself
"Did I remember to recompile?"

* Source code navigation: You see a method call, and you'd really like
to peer inside it's code. In the old days, you essentially search through
the entire class hierarchy, 'cause you never know where a method might have
been defined, or when it might have gotten overloaded.

* Error highlighting: In the old days, you'd try to compile and see some
error messages. You'd read the first one, and fix it, and then recompile.
Why? Because the other messages might have been spurrious errors caused by
the first one (especially if the first one was a syntax error). Now, errors
are underlined, and as soon as you fix one and save, the file is
automatically recompiled, and the new errors are shown.

* Refactoring: This is a very general one. Refactoring used to be
tedious and error prone (especially if you didn't have error highlighting).
It was difficult to remember all the small changes you had to make. Now it's
two or three clicks, and it's done.

There are many others, but these are the ones I'm sure most Eclipse
users use every day.

Then there's stuff that's probably relatively specific to my company. We
exploit the fact that Eclipse is highly extensible a lot, and have some very
powerful plugins. I wrote the front end to a COBOL 85 compiler "manually" (I
used generators like JavaCC and JTB, but not our homebrewed Eclipse plugin,
'cause it wasn't developped enough yet), and it took me about 2 months to
finish. It was just a lot of tedious coding involving dealing with every
keyword in COBOL (of which there are a lot). The "difficult" part could be
isolated into a few small modules. Because I developped it over 2 months,
the style and API is inconsistent: over time, I found better ways to do
something, or found out that I needed some methods to be more general, etc.

When our plugin was ready, I spent about a week writing code in our
proprietary language, clicked a button, and another COBOL 85 compiler front
end was generated, having all the same features of the original one, except
now the API and style was completely consistent (since it was all described
over the course of a few days instead of months).

Now less than 3% of our Java code (measured by filesize) is written by
humans.

We've got several compiler front-ends right now; for Java 1.4 (i.e. no
generics support yet), C, C# 1.0, COBOL 85, SQL, etc. and we will
occasionally want to make architectural changes to all of them. For example,
we were using the (vanilla) Visitor pattern to go through the ASTs and
perform computations on them. We decided to scrapped the visitors, and go
with a hybrid of the "Guide" pattern and the "Visitor Combinator" pattern.

Normally this would be a monstrous task. We're essentially rewriting the
core components of every compiler for every language we support! But with
our plugin, it's just a matter of changing a handful of Java classes (20 at
the most), perhaps change our templating language a bit, click the "go"
button, and all the compilers will be regenerated using the new design
pattern.

The Eclipse team describes Eclipse not only as an IDE, but as a
platform. We've taken that idea and ran with it. We don't just code using
Eclipse; we write tools custom-tailed and specifically designed to solve the
problems that WE are facing. In that sense, Eclipse is a meta-tool that
allows us to create the tools that bring us about a 8x savings in time, and
a 33x savings in codebase size (which reduces maintenance costs).

- Oliver
 
D

Danno

That was a good page, good poltical ammo for my republican
adversaries. ;)

But onto IDEs. Your forth point is the key. There are people that
learned the intricacies of their IDEs that they don't want to give that
up.
 

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