Who owns the patent for HTML, if there is one?

G

Grant Robertson

I know it is W3C's policy to ensure that any patented technology use in
any of their standards is promised to be licensed with no fees. What I
can't find out is if there is a patent on the HTML standard itself. If
there is one, then who owns it? Does the W3C own the patent? I imaging
they own the patent for the latest versions but do they own the original
version? Was that ever patented?

Don't worry, I'm just curious. I'm not going to try to buy "The
Internet."

As a corollary, if there are patents, who is listed as the inventors?
 
T

Toby A Inkster

Grant said:
Was that ever patented?

No, why would it have been? The whole point of the Web is that it should
be free and open. Patenting HTML would be contrary to the spirit of it.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
Geek of ~ HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python*/Apache/Linux

* = I'm getting there!
 
J

James Hutton

Toby said:
No, why would it have been? The whole point of the Web is that it should
be free and open. Patenting HTML would be contrary to the spirit of it.
I seem to recall, but it is very hazy, that British Telecom tried at one
point to patent the hyperlink. Can anyone shed any light on this?
 
J

Jukka K. Korpela

Scripsit Toby A Inkster:
No, why would it have been?

Who knows? Companies patent things for various reasons. And I haven't
checked the patent registrations in all the countries of world (patents are
normally country-specific, with some exceptions like community patents in
the EU) to see whether HTML has been patented. But it could hardly have been
patented by W3C, since HTML was invented and published years before the W3C
was established.
The whole point of the Web is that it
should be free and open.

In any case, it's not completely free and open. But there would be little
point in making HTML patented.
Patenting HTML would be contrary to the spirit of it.

In any case, the W3C uses the trademark sign ("TM" in superscript style) to
indicate "XHTML" as protected by _trademark_. Of course, there's a good
reason to that, and a real reason. To add to the confusion, their "legal
notice" at
http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/2002/ipr-notice-20021231
indicates both "HTML" and "XHTML" as "generic terms", which looks very much
like nonsense, especially when compared with their use of the trademark
sign.
 
T

Toby A Inkster

James said:
I seem to recall, but it is very hazy, that British Telecom tried at one
point to patent the hyperlink. Can anyone shed any light on this?

Indeed they did. About 8 years ago, BT noticed that they held a US patent
on hyperlinks. They proceeded to attempt to claim license fees from a
number of US ISPs. Prodigy stood up to them, so BT sued.

BT lost the case on the grounds that the technology covered in their patent
described a particular *method* of implementing hyperlinks, but hyperlinks
on the web use a different method. Same end result -- different invention
used to implement it.

Even if the judge hadn't ruled on those grounds, it is likely that BT's
patent claim could have been invalidated based in arguments of prior art.
I suppose that Prodigy chose to argue what they did, rather than arguing
prior art, because the former was an easier case to argue.

BT's original patent expired last year without any fanfare.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
Geek of ~ HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python*/Apache/Linux

* = I'm getting there!
 
T

Toby A Inkster

Jukka said:
In any case, the W3C uses the trademark sign ("TM" in superscript style) to
indicate "XHTML" as protected by _trademark_. Of course, there's a good
reason to that, and a real reason.

Indeed, but patents and trade marks are entirely different kettles of fish.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
Geek of ~ HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python*/Apache/Linux

* = I'm getting there!
 
N

nice.guy.nige

While the city slept, Jukka K. Korpela ([email protected]) feverishly
typed...

[html patents?]
But it could hardly have been patented by W3C, since HTML was
invented and published years before the W3C was established.

Indeed, but in the realms of genetic research, certain genes have been
patented, despite the years of evolution that brought them before the
company who filed the patent existed... (not that I agree with this, in
fact, quite the opposite!)

Cheers,
Nige
 
G

Grant Robertson

Scripsit Toby A Inkster:


In any case, it's not completely free and open. But there would be little
point in making HTML patented.

Well, the reason I ask is that I am writing a standard for marking up
educational material that I hope to submit to the W3C. In keeping with
their policies I would license the technology for free. However, I am
still interested in a patent for several reasons. Primarily:

* A patent would preempt another episode of the browser wars where
Microsoft and Netscape kept adding non-standard features to HTML in an
attempt to shut each other out. With a patent, I could license the
technology for free but only under the condition that no one modify the
standard without going through the standards body. If Microsoft tried to
"embrace and extend" then I could revoke their license.

* If there is already a patent then no one could try to patent the
technology and steal it from the world for their own profit.

* If there is a patent then my name will be on it. Even if I never make a
penny from the standard itself, it would be nice to get some credit for
saving the world.
 
J

Jukka K. Korpela

Scripsit Grant Robertson:
Well, the reason I ask is that I am writing a standard for marking up
educational material that I hope to submit to the W3C.

Why didn't you say so in your first message? That would have saved anyone's
time. The odds of having a useful system for marking up educational material
approved as a W3C "standard" (recommendation) are comparable to the
proverbial odds of a snowball in Sahara.
In keeping with
their policies I would license the technology for free.

It is questionable whether anyone would need a license to use some tags.
* A patent would preempt another episode of the browser wars

No, not on this planet.
* If there is already a patent then no one could try to patent the
technology and steal it from the world for their own profit.

Welcome to Earth. Patents are generally country-specific, and patent offices
aren't literally filled with Einsteins (and a guess Einstein wasn't such a
great patent officer), so patents are granted that should never by granted,
for one reason or another.
* If there is a patent then my name will be on it.

Perhaps, but nobody knows that. Either the patent is not of any interest to
anything, or some company buys it from you.
 
G

Grant Robertson

Scripsit Grant Robertson:

Why didn't you say so in your first message? That would have saved anyone's
time.

I have found that sometimes if one reveals the true reason for a
question, then respondents will prejudge one's intent and not provide
accurate answers. By narrowing the focus of my question I ensure I get
the information I seek so that I can make my own judgements.
The odds of having a useful system for marking up educational material
approved as a W3C "standard" (recommendation) are comparable to the
proverbial odds of a snowball in Sahara.

Are you saying that marking up educational material so it is machine
parseable is not something W3C is interested in? Are they only interested
in general standards which can then be used for any type of material?
Perhaps I should look to another organization such as OASIS, which seems
to be more interested in specific standards for specific uses.

It is questionable whether anyone would need a license to use some tags.

That is like saying it is questionable whether someone would need a
license to use a protocol or to use some lines of code. If creative work
goes into defining a standard set of tags, and software won't work with
that data unless the tags in a data set follow that exact standard then
it is entirely possible to restrict use of that standard set of tags to
those who have agreed to a license and the restrictions contained
therein. It is done all the time. Just because you are used to not
needing to worry about licensing for the standards you use does not mean
that there are not patents on those technologies. It is entirely possible
to patent a technology then freely license it to anyone who wants to use
it.

No, not on this planet.

If the restrictions of the license specified that no one could "embrace
and extend" the standard then that is the restriction everyone would have
to live with. If Microsoft added new tags and tried to claim they were
compatible then I could suspend their license to use the main part of the
standard and they would be left with only their additional tags. Even if
someone improves on a patent they still have to abide by the license to
the original patent. Any patents they hold on the improvements only apply
to those improvements.

Please also keep in mind: I will not be charging any licensing fees for
the technology. I would only be restricting use of the technology, which
is perfectly legal.

Welcome to Earth. Patents are generally country-specific, and patent offices
aren't literally filled with Einsteins (and a guess Einstein wasn't such a
great patent officer), so patents are granted that should never by granted,
for one reason or another.

Patents are always country specific. What is commonly know as a world
wide patent is really just a separate patent in every country in the
world. Most "world wide" patents are only recorded in the major
countries/legal regions.

I agree, Einstein was probably pretty distracted with "other things"
while he was processing patents.

I know that the patent process is long and arduous. But I still feel that
having a patent would better for the long term viability of this
technology than not having a patent.

Perhaps, but nobody knows that. Either the patent is not of any interest to
anything, or some company buys it from you.

I will know it. History will know it. Every web site explaining the
history of how the world was changed by the availability of free and
effective education for everyone in the world will mention it.

I will never "cash in" and sell this technology. In fact I have plans to
spilt the "ownership" or "assignment" of the patent between myself and
some other organization. There will be an agreement that neither side may
sell the patent and that, if reassignment becomes necessary, then the new
assignees must also agree to always license the technology for free with
the same restrictions. This is all possible and completely legal and so
would stand up in court.
 
J

Jukka K. Korpela

Scripsit Grant Robertson:
I have found that sometimes if one reveals the true reason for a
question, then respondents will prejudge one's intent and not provide
accurate answers.

So what? Why would you want to get accurate answers to a wrong question
rather than (assumedly) less than perfect answers to your real question?
That's what people ask for very often on Usenet, though naturally they tend
to get inaccurate or wrong answers to their wrong question, and when they
finally (if ever) tell the real question, few people are interested in
helping any more.
Are you saying that marking up educational material so it is machine
parseable is not something W3C is interested in?

I'm not saying much about the reasons for the small odds, but you should
realize that W3C is an industry consortium driven by the interests of the
major industry players.
That is like saying it is questionable whether someone would need a
license to use a protocol or to use some lines of code.

No it isn't. Program code is typically protected by copyright, unless it's
fairly trivial.
Please also keep in mind: I will not be charging any licensing fees
for the technology.

Do you think someone is interested?
I will never "cash in" and sell this technology.

Quite probably, but the main reason is that nobody is interested in buying
it.
 
T

Toby A Inkster

Grant said:
Are you saying that marking up educational material so it is machine
parseable is not something W3C is interested in? Are they only interested
in general standards which can then be used for any type of material?
Perhaps I should look to another organization such as OASIS, which seems
to be more interested in specific standards for specific uses.

Getting it standardised by either would be an uphill battle.

If you've not already started, I'd suggest basing your standard on XHTML
1.0 Strict, and then using special education-specific values for class
attributes. Then submit your standard to microformats.org.

The aim of microformats is to create standards in specialised areas by
extending existing formats such as XHTML and Atom in backwards-compatible
ways. It's an interesting concept, and I think in the next few years it
will really take off.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
Geek of ~ HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python*/Apache/Linux

* = I'm getting there!
 
B

Ben C

On 2007-03-31 said:
No it isn't. Program code is typically protected by copyright, unless it's
fairly trivial.

Not at all, the program code for many large and non-trivial projects is
protected (or should I say, liberated) by copyleft.
 
N

Neredbojias

I have found that sometimes if one reveals the true reason for a
question, then respondents will prejudge one's intent and not provide
accurate answers. By narrowing the focus of my question I ensure I get
the information I seek so that I can make my own judgements.

You sound like a lawyer. The statement itself is not only prejudgmental
but basically dishonest and unethical to boot. It seems as if obfuscation
is your primary conduit to garner favor and/or agreement for your premises.
 
J

Jukka K. Korpela

Scripsit Ben C:
Not at all, the program code for many large and non-trivial projects
is protected (or should I say, liberated) by copyleft.

This has nothing to do with HTML any more, but I just need to remark that
"copyleft" is just some people's word for the publics licences that some
people grant. You cannot make anything "copyleft" unless you have copyright
to it, and you are not giving the copyright away but exercising your
copyright.
 
G

Grant Robertson

You sound like a lawyer. The statement itself is not only prejudgmental
but basically dishonest and unethical to boot. It seems as if obfuscation
is your primary conduit to garner favor and/or agreement for your premises.

No. I wanted to know if HTML was patented so that is what I asked. I
didn't want everyone's opinion about what I should do about my standard.
I only wanted to know if HTML was patented. If I had explained why I
wanted to know then no one would have told me the actual information I
was seeking but would have gone off on all these darn tangents instead.

I'm not trying to garner anything other than information about whether
HTML was patented and perhaps some guidance on how to protect my
standard. Why you feel the need to attack me for simply asking a question
in such a way that I will actaully get a useable answer is beyond me.
 
B

Blinky the Shark

Grant said:
No. I wanted to know if HTML was patented so that is what I asked. I
didn't want everyone's opinion about what I should do about my standard.

That's one of the nifty things about Usenet -- you often get even more than
you asked for, at no additional cost. Best deal in town.
 
G

Grant Robertson

Scripsit Grant Robertson:

So what? Why would you want to get accurate answers to a wrong question
rather than (assumedly) less than perfect answers to your real question?
That's what people ask for very often on Usenet, though naturally they tend
to get inaccurate or wrong answers to their wrong question, and when they
finally (if ever) tell the real question, few people are interested in
helping any more.

So, you are telling me that I don't have the right to phrase my question
in such a manner that I truly get the information I am looking for.
Instead, you seem to be telling me that I must phrase all of my questions
in such a manner that you can second guess my needs and only feed me the
answer you think I should have so you can unduly influence my decisions
in the direction you you would take. That is just absurd!

I have been on Usenet practically since there has been a UseNet and I was
on bulletin boards for years before that. I know how to ask questions to
get the information I need and I know that if I ask questions the way you
suggest then all I will get is opinions and conjecture.

so, please just give me a break and stop nagging me because you didn't
get the opportunity to tell me what to do.


I'm not saying much about the reasons for the small odds, but you should
realize that W3C is an industry consortium driven by the interests of the
major industry players.

I'll keep that in mind. But all standards overseen by W3C are required to
be licensed freely. Yes the members of W3C are primarily major
corporations. However, the goal is to further open standards because they
believe that will most benefit everyone in the long run. They are not
going to refuse my standard simply because no one can sell it.
Additionally, just because one can't make money selling a license to use
the standard doesn't mean people don't make money selling software that
adheres to the standard.

You really do seem to have a narrow and naive view of how open standards
work. Perhaps you should take a look at the following:

http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/office/ipr.php

http://www-03.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/BobSutor?
entry=grading_open_standards_what_does

http://stephesblog.blogs.com/my_weblog/2005/09/open_standards_.html

As you can see, there are patents on many open standards. No one makes
money selling the rights to use the standard. They make money selling
software that uses the standard. Patents are commonly used to prevent
others from modifying a standard in a proprietary manner. In fact, this
is a primary goal of standards bodies.

No it isn't. Program code is typically protected by copyright, unless it's
fairly trivial.

Actually, copyright only protects the actual text of the code itself. All
anyone would have to do is change some variable names and comments and
they would not be violating the copyright. Ask an expert in Intellectual
Property. I did, just two days ago. He was very specific about that. One
must get a patent to protect the actual algorithm to achieve the goal.

Naturally many are opposed to software patents but this is only because
they are often misused or issued for trivial things. After seeing a few
patents for things that were both obvious and prior art I get pretty
frustrated as well. However, you would be very interested in a patent if
it was the only way you could protect your ideas from being used by
others to make a profit without compensating you. Well, guess what. It is
the only way you can truly protect a standard or software algorithm. So
just get used to it.

Do you think someone is interested?


Quite probably, but the main reason is that nobody is interested in buying
it.

Now you are just being mean for meanness sake. You have no idea what my
standard does or how it might benefit mankind. So why don't you just go
away and let the adults have an adult conversation.
 
B

Blinky the Shark

Grant said:
I have been on Usenet practically since there has been a UseNet and I was
on bulletin boards for years before that. I know how to ask questions to

BBSs preceded netnews?

Where?
 
G

Grant Robertson

BBSs preceded netnews?

Where?

Nope, I was just using them before I started using newsgroups.

Granted, netnews was around for a long time before I got into anything.
But I said "UseNet" not "netnews." UseNet is based on netnews but is not
exactly the same thing.
 

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