ANNOUNCE: TimingAnalyzer version beta 0.87

Discussion in 'VHDL' started by timinganalyzer, Jul 19, 2008.

  1. Hi All,

    A new version of the TimingAnalyzer, beta 0.87, is now available.
    The following improvements and changes are new since the last version.


    1) Changed the user interface to be more windows like. Click to
    select objects. Hold Ctrl key down and click to select multiple
    objects. Click in empty area to deselect all the select objects.

    2) Drag the mouse anytime draws a select rectangle to select objects.
    Previously, you needed to hold down the alt and drag

    3) Fixed saving images to selected directory in file chooser dialog.

    4) Changed all DTT object references to PulseWidthLabel objects.

    5) Fixed all commands that move edges do not move DigitalClocks edges
    now.

    6) Changed Ctrl Up key combination to Alt Up when moving delay,
    constraint, and PulseWidthLabels up in the diagram. Ctrl Up is used by
    the JTabbedPane so users can hit Ctrl up and left and right to select
    a diagram in other tab panes.

    7) Save as dialog does not display when just saving (Ctrl-S). When
    exiting the application, the save as dialog displays for each file
    that has been modified by not saved.

    8) Fixed file needs to be saved when selecting or deselecting objects.

    9) Standard Edition Features enabled until 9/13/08 for trail and
    testing. All beta versions will have the SE features enabled until the
    final release.

    10) Working SE Features currently include savings images in other
    formats such as eps, pdf, svg, png, and gif, and also the scripting
    interface.


    You can download and use it at:

    www.timing-diagrams.com
    timinganalyzer, Jul 19, 2008
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. timinganalyzer

    rickman Guest

    On Jul 19, 2:11 pm, timinganalyzer <> wrote:
    > Hi All,
    >
    > A new version of the TimingAnalyzer, beta 0.87, is now available.
    > The following improvements and changes are new since the last version.

    ....snip...

    Could I suggest that you add a forum to your web site and announce
    your product releases there? That is what most projects like yours
    do. Announcing it in multiple newsgroups is really no different from
    other spam.

    How about you give it a rest? Besides, I think you are over
    estimating the demand for your product. I have only seen a small
    indication of any interest in this product. If it is any good and
    there is a need, customers will find you by word of mouth.

    Rick
    rickman, Jul 19, 2008
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. On Jul 19, 3:11 pm, rickman <> wrote:
    > On Jul 19, 2:11 pm, timinganalyzer <> wrote:> Hi All,
    >
    > > A new version of the TimingAnalyzer, beta 0.87, is now available.
    > > The following improvements and changes are new since the last version.

    >
    > ...snip...
    >
    > Could I suggest that you add a forum to your web site and announce
    > your product releases there? That is what most projects like yours
    > do. Announcing it in multiple newsgroups is really no different from
    > other spam.
    >
    > How about you give it a rest? Besides, I think you are over
    > estimating the demand for your product. I have only seen a small
    > indication of any interest in this product. If it is any good and
    > there is a need, customers will find you by word of mouth.
    >
    > Rick


    Hello Rick,

    I didn't think it would considered spam if it's related to the subject
    of
    the newsgroup but I guess you have a good point. I won't announce
    updates
    to the program on the newsgroups anymore.

    You might be right about the interest level as well. Time will
    tell.
    There seems to more interest with ASIC and VLSI design engineers
    needing ways
    to document complex interface timing diagrams and generating test
    vectors.
    That was why I decided to develop the program in the first place.

    -Dan











    -Dan
    timinganalyzer, Jul 19, 2008
    #3
  4. timinganalyzer

    CBFalconer Guest

    timinganalyzer wrote:
    > rickman <> wrote:
    >> timinganalyzer <> wrote:> Hi All,
    >>
    >>> A new version of the TimingAnalyzer, beta 0.87, is now
    >>> available. The following improvements and changes are new since

    >>< the last version.
    >>
    >> ...snip...
    >>
    >> Could I suggest that you add a forum to your web site and
    >> announce your product releases there? That is what most projects
    >> like yours do. Announcing it in multiple newsgroups is really no
    >> different from other spam.

    >

    .... snip ...
    >
    > I didn't think it would considered spam if it's related to the
    > subject of the newsgroup but I guess you have a good point. I
    > won't announce updates to the program on the newsgroups anymore.
    >
    > You might be right about the interest level as well. Time will
    > tell. There seems to more interest with ASIC and VLSI design
    > engineers needing ways to document complex interface timing
    > diagrams and generating test vectors. That was why I decided to
    > develop the program in the first place.


    I don't consider it spam. It is available, free, and pertinent.
    Without this sort of announcement interested users will never know
    it exists.

    --
    [mail]: Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net)
    [page]: <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>
    Try the download section.
    CBFalconer, Jul 19, 2008
    #4
  5. timinganalyzer

    rickman Guest

    On Jul 19, 7:37 pm, Jerry Avins <> wrote:
    > CBFalconer wrote:
    > > timinganalyzer wrote:
    > >> rickman <> wrote:
    > >>> timinganalyzer <> wrote:> Hi All,

    >
    > >>>> A new version of the TimingAnalyzer, beta 0.87, is now
    > >>>> available. The following improvements and changes are new since
    > >>> < the last version.

    >
    > >>> ...snip...

    >
    > >>> Could I suggest that you add a forum to your web site and
    > >>> announce your product releases there? That is what most projects
    > >>> like yours do. Announcing it in multiple newsgroups is really no
    > >>> different from other spam.

    > > ... snip ...
    > >> I didn't think it would considered spam if it's related to the
    > >> subject of the newsgroup but I guess you have a good point. I
    > >> won't announce updates to the program on the newsgroups anymore.

    >
    > >> You might be right about the interest level as well. Time will
    > >> tell. There seems to more interest with ASIC and VLSI design
    > >> engineers needing ways to document complex interface timing
    > >> diagrams and generating test vectors. That was why I decided to
    > >> develop the program in the first place.

    >
    > > I don't consider it spam. It is available, free, and pertinent.
    > > Without this sort of announcement interested users will never know
    > > it exists.

    >
    > I don't consider it spam either. Instead of a complete accounting of new
    > features, Rickman might be happier with a brief announcement that alerts
    > the reader to new material on the website. Personally, I don't care.


    Are you and CBF OK with *any* vendor of hardware, software, tools,
    components, boards or materials related to embedded, FPGA, DSP or VHDL/
    Verilog posting here to advertise their products? The fact that this
    software offers a free version with limited features does not make it
    unique. There are any number of software vendors that do the same
    thing. Many component manufacturers offer free samples. Even makers
    of tools, boards, systems and test equipment will let you use their
    products for evaluation.

    Is there something special about this vendor and his product?

    Personally I feel that his posts are not on topic. Selling and
    marketing is not the topic of any of these groups.


    Rick
    rickman, Jul 20, 2008
    #5
  6. timinganalyzer

    CBFalconer Guest

    rickman wrote:
    > Jerry Avins <> wrote:
    >> CBFalconer wrote:
    >>

    .... snip ...
    >>
    >>> I don't consider it spam. It is available, free, and pertinent.
    >>> Without this sort of announcement interested users will never
    >>> know it exists.

    >>
    >> I don't consider it spam either. Instead of a complete accounting
    >> of new features, Rickman might be happier with a brief
    >> announcement that alerts the reader to new material on the
    >> website. Personally, I don't care.

    >
    > Are you and CBF OK with *any* vendor of hardware, software, tools,
    > components, boards or materials related to embedded, FPGA, DSP or
    > VHDL/ Verilog posting here to advertise their products? The fact
    > that this software offers a free version with limited features
    > does not make it unique. There are any number of software vendors
    > that do the same thing. Many component manufacturers offer free
    > samples. Even makers of tools, boards, systems and test equipment
    > will let you use their products for evaluation.
    >
    > Is there something special about this vendor and his product?
    >
    > Personally I feel that his posts are not on topic. Selling and
    > marketing is not the topic of any of these groups.


    As far as I can tell the source is available, and there is no
    long-term commercial interest. This puts it in the same
    classification as Linux. He is not selling - he is offering.

    --
    [mail]: Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net)
    [page]: <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>
    Try the download section.
    CBFalconer, Jul 20, 2008
    #6
  7. CBFalconer <> writes:

    > rickman wrote:
    >> Jerry Avins <> wrote:
    >>> CBFalconer wrote:
    >>>

    > ... snip ...
    >>>
    >>>> I don't consider it spam. It is available, free, and pertinent.
    >>>> Without this sort of announcement interested users will never
    >>>> know it exists.
    >>>
    >>> I don't consider it spam either. Instead of a complete accounting
    >>> of new features, Rickman might be happier with a brief
    >>> announcement that alerts the reader to new material on the
    >>> website. Personally, I don't care.

    >>
    >> Are you and CBF OK with *any* vendor of hardware, software, tools,
    >> components, boards or materials related to embedded, FPGA, DSP or
    >> VHDL/ Verilog posting here to advertise their products? The fact
    >> that this software offers a free version with limited features
    >> does not make it unique. There are any number of software vendors
    >> that do the same thing. Many component manufacturers offer free
    >> samples. Even makers of tools, boards, systems and test equipment
    >> will let you use their products for evaluation.
    >>
    >> Is there something special about this vendor and his product?
    >>
    >> Personally I feel that his posts are not on topic. Selling and
    >> marketing is not the topic of any of these groups.

    >
    > As far as I can tell the source is available,


    But you are not allowed to look at it

    <http://www.timing-diagrams.com/license.html>

    "You may not modify, reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the
    TimingAnalyzer program."

    > and there is no long-term commercial interest. This puts it in the
    > same classification as Linux. He is not selling - he is offering.


    ...."You must buy a license to use TimingAnalyzer Standard
    Edition(SE)"...

    It appears to be a commercial program, free for personal,
    non-commercial use only. So I agree with rickman.

    --

    John Devereux
    John Devereux, Jul 20, 2008
    #7
  8. timinganalyzer

    Rich Webb Guest

    On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 00:03:58 -0400, Jerry Avins <> wrote:

    >rickman wrote:


    >> Are you and CBF OK with *any* vendor of hardware, software, tools,
    >> components, boards or materials related to embedded, FPGA, DSP or VHDL/
    >> Verilog posting here to advertise their products?


    A salient difference is that the posts were not simply (or even mostly)
    advertising but rather were part of a conversation about the features,
    operation, and behaviors of a useful tool that was under development.

    Boy, it sure would suck if the product development engineers from Xilinx
    or Atmel or whatever would hang around here and do that, eh?

    >> The fact that this
    >> software offers a free version with limited features does not make it
    >> unique. There are any number of software vendors that do the same
    >> thing. Many component manufacturers offer free samples. Even makers
    >> of tools, boards, systems and test equipment will let you use their
    >> products for evaluation.
    >>
    >> Is there something special about this vendor and his product?


    Other than soliciting and responding to community feedback?

    >> Personally I feel that his posts are not on topic. Selling and
    >> marketing is not the topic of any of these groups.


    Personally, I feel that the joker who keeps littering the groups with
    "Spam" posts is more of a menace.

    >There is something special about this vendor, if not his product. He has
    >made something on his own that he hopes is useful, and has no budget to
    >make it known. He came to us initially for advice, which he heeded
    >despite the criticism that was unfortunately necessary. If nothing else,
    >I'm happy to give him a bye.


    Indeed.

    --
    Rich Webb Norfolk, VA
    Rich Webb, Jul 20, 2008
    #8
  9. timinganalyzer

    rickman Guest

    On Jul 20, 1:06 am, CBFalconer <> wrote:
    >
    > As far as I can tell the source is available, and there is no
    > long-term commercial interest. This puts it in the same
    > classification as Linux. He is not selling - he is offering.


    Did you actually look at his web page? There is nothing "open" about
    this program and the only "free" is the limited capability version
    licensed only for "personal or academic use", not commercial.

    http://www.timing-diagrams.com/license.html

    In particular,

    "You must buy a license to use TimingAnalyzer Standard Edition(SE)"

    and

    "You may not modify, reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the
    TimingAnalyzer program."


    I'm not trying to bust anyone's balls. But this guy has been
    cluttering up a number of newsgroups, Yahoo groups and who knows where
    else with his frequent postings. I don't object to his making it
    known that there is a new product on the market. I get tired of
    seeing his, sometimes bi-weekly, announcements that a new version is
    out there. If anyone is looking for a timing analyzer then he will
    already be easy to find. If anyone wants to know the current status
    of his program he has a web site.

    I just think that a lot of people, here and elsewhere, don't so much
    "think" about a topic like this, they justify what they "feel". How
    would people "feel" if every vendor came here to advertise, announce
    new products, new features or even just to solicit comments and
    advice? I remember awhile back there were some job postings and it
    was rather contentious whether that was considered acceptable. For
    the most part people had no logical justification for wanting to allow
    that sort of post. They just tried to rationalize their feelings, "if
    you were out of work, you would welcome those posts" sort of
    thing.

    Well my feelings are that I get tired of seeing advertising in this
    group and elsewhere. I moderate multiple Yahoo groups and have made a
    real effort to exclude the spam. Don't you think these groups would
    be better served with less spam?

    Rick
    rickman, Jul 20, 2008
    #9
  10. timinganalyzer

    CBFalconer Guest

    rickman wrote:
    > CBFalconer <> wrote:
    >
    >> As far as I can tell the source is available, and there is no
    >> long-term commercial interest. This puts it in the same
    >> classification as Linux. He is not selling - he is offering.

    >
    > Did you actually look at his web page? There is nothing "open"
    > about this program and the only "free" is the limited capability
    > version licensed only for "personal or academic use", not
    > commercial.


    No, I admit I didn't. I have limited interest in such a utility.

    --
    [mail]: Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net)
    [page]: <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>
    Try the download section.
    CBFalconer, Jul 20, 2008
    #10
  11. On Jul 20, 9:14 am, rickman <> wrote:
    > On Jul 20, 1:06 am, CBFalconer <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > > As far as I can tell the source is available, and there is no
    > > long-term commercial interest. This puts it in the same
    > > classification as Linux. He is not selling - he is offering.

    >
    > Did you actually look at his web page? There is nothing "open" about
    > this program and the only "free" is the limited capability version
    > licensed only for "personal or academic use", not commercial.
    >
    > http://www.timing-diagrams.com/license.html
    >
    > In particular,
    >
    > "You must buy a license to use TimingAnalyzer Standard Edition(SE)"
    >
    > and
    >
    > "You may not modify, reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the
    > TimingAnalyzer program."
    >
    > I'm not trying to bust anyone's balls. But this guy has been
    > cluttering up a number of newsgroups, Yahoo groups and who knows where
    > else with his frequent postings. I don't object to his making it
    > known that there is a new product on the market. I get tired of
    > seeing his, sometimes bi-weekly, announcements that a new version is
    > out there. If anyone is looking for a timing analyzer then he will
    > already be easy to find. If anyone wants to know the current status
    > of his program he has a web site.
    >
    > I just think that a lot of people, here and elsewhere, don't so much
    > "think" about a topic like this, they justify what they "feel". How
    > would people "feel" if every vendor came here to advertise, announce
    > new products, new features or even just to solicit comments and
    > advice? I remember awhile back there were some job postings and it
    > was rather contentious whether that was considered acceptable. For
    > the most part people had no logical justification for wanting to allow
    > that sort of post. They just tried to rationalize their feelings, "if
    > you were out of work, you would welcome those posts" sort of
    > thing.
    >
    > Well my feelings are that I get tired of seeing advertising in this
    > group and elsewhere. I moderate multiple Yahoo groups and have made a
    > real effort to exclude the spam. Don't you think these groups would
    > be better served with less spam?
    >
    > Rick



    Hello All,

    I'm sorry to be the cause of this debate. Originally, my intentions
    were to find some beta testers to help me test the program and at the
    same time get some visibility to potential customers. Its hard to
    find experience engineers to help. I have been getting feedback from
    users of each beta version which has been helpful.

    rickman, Yes, I have made the announcement on other groups that I
    thought were relative to digital logic timing analysis and drawing
    timings. I am not just blindly sendiing frequent postings to any
    group that are not related.

    But, I will follow any newsgroup guidelines there are and will not
    clutter them will frequent announcements anymore if that is considered
    spam or not good practice.

    Regards,
    Dan
    timinganalyzer, Jul 20, 2008
    #11
  12. On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 06:14:35 -0700 (PDT), rickman <>
    wrote:


    >I'm not trying to bust anyone's balls. But this guy has been
    >cluttering up a number of newsgroups, Yahoo groups and who knows where
    >else with his frequent postings. I don't object to his making it
    >known that there is a new product on the market. I get tired of
    >seeing his, sometimes bi-weekly, announcements that a new version is
    >out there. If anyone is looking for a timing analyzer then he will
    >already be easy to find. If anyone wants to know the current status
    >of his program he has a web site.
    >
    >I just think that a lot of people, here and elsewhere, don't so much
    >"think" about a topic like this, they justify what they "feel". How
    >would people "feel" if every vendor came here to advertise, announce
    >new products, new features or even just to solicit comments and
    >advice? I remember awhile back there were some job postings and it
    >was rather contentious whether that was considered acceptable. For
    >the most part people had no logical justification for wanting to allow
    >that sort of post. They just tried to rationalize their feelings, "if
    >you were out of work, you would welcome those posts" sort of
    >thing.
    >
    >Well my feelings are that I get tired of seeing advertising in this
    >group and elsewhere. I moderate multiple Yahoo groups and have made a
    >real effort to exclude the spam. Don't you think these groups would
    >be better served with less spam?
    >
    >Rick


    Spam is going to part of the internet for the foreseeable future, and
    unmoderated newsgroups are always going to be subject to unwanted
    intrusions. I suggest you learn to use killfiles and ignore
    settings rather than harp on anybody who comes along that might have a
    product relevant to the group, because that's not going to stop.
    People can make their own decisions and clearly, as in this case, some
    people do like getting the information.

    For this particular case I think he's been exceptional in that he's
    looking for (and getting, and responding to) feedback to make his
    product better. Would that all vendors in relevant fields would do
    this.

    Eric Jacobsen
    Minister of Algorithms
    Abineau Communications
    http://www.ericjacobsen.org

    Blog: http://www.dsprelated.com/blogs-1/hf/Eric_Jacobsen.php
    Eric Jacobsen, Jul 20, 2008
    #12
  13. timinganalyzer

    rickman Guest

    On Jul 20, 10:54 am, Eric Jacobsen <> wrote:
    > On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 06:14:35 -0700 (PDT), rickman <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > >I'm not trying to bust anyone's balls. But this guy has been
    > >cluttering up a number of newsgroups, Yahoo groups and who knows where
    > >else with his frequent postings. I don't object to his making it
    > >known that there is a new product on the market. I get tired of
    > >seeing his, sometimes bi-weekly, announcements that a new version is
    > >out there. If anyone is looking for a timing analyzer then he will
    > >already be easy to find. If anyone wants to know the current status
    > >of his program he has a web site.

    >
    > >I just think that a lot of people, here and elsewhere, don't so much
    > >"think" about a topic like this, they justify what they "feel". How
    > >would people "feel" if every vendor came here to advertise, announce
    > >new products, new features or even just to solicit comments and
    > >advice? I remember awhile back there were some job postings and it
    > >was rather contentious whether that was considered acceptable. For
    > >the most part people had no logical justification for wanting to allow
    > >that sort of post. They just tried to rationalize their feelings, "if
    > >you were out of work, you would welcome those posts" sort of
    > >thing.

    >
    > >Well my feelings are that I get tired of seeing advertising in this
    > >group and elsewhere. I moderate multiple Yahoo groups and have made a
    > >real effort to exclude the spam. Don't you think these groups would
    > >be better served with less spam?

    >
    > >Rick

    >
    > Spam is going to part of the internet for the foreseeable future, and
    > unmoderated newsgroups are always going to be subject to unwanted
    > intrusions. I suggest you learn to use killfiles and ignore
    > settings rather than harp on anybody who comes along that might have a
    > product relevant to the group, because that's not going to stop.
    > People can make their own decisions and clearly, as in this case, some
    > people do like getting the information.
    >
    > For this particular case I think he's been exceptional in that he's
    > looking for (and getting, and responding to) feedback to make his
    > product better. Would that all vendors in relevant fields would do
    > this.


    If I understand your post correctly, you are making two points. The
    first is that since it is impossible to stop all spam, that we should
    not try to stop *any* spam posts, is that correct? That is, when
    otherwise reputable companies use spam to promote their products, we
    should just shrug our shoulders and consider this part of the Internet
    landscape?

    The second point I think you are making is that you have a personal
    feeling that this particular spammer should be allowed because you
    don't find his posts offensive. Is that correct?

    So just to be clear on this, you don't have a problem with all
    embedded related vendors coming to these newsgroups and posting
    advertising, marketing, update announcements or asking for "opinions"
    on their latest products. Is that right?

    Rick
    rickman, Jul 20, 2008
    #13
  14. timinganalyzer

    CBFalconer Guest

    timinganalyzer wrote:
    >

    .... snip ...
    >
    > I'm sorry to be the cause of this debate. Originally, my
    > intentions were to find some beta testers to help me test the
    > program and at the same time get some visibility to potential
    > customers. Its hard to find experience engineers to help. I
    > have been getting feedback from users of each beta version
    > which has been helpful.


    Don't get too excited about it. There is always at least one
    person who considers almost every announcement commercial spam.
    The real spammers know what they are.

    --
    [mail]: Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net)
    [page]: <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>
    Try the download section.
    CBFalconer, Jul 20, 2008
    #14
  15. timinganalyzer

    Guest

    On Jul 20, 1:29 pm, Jerry Avins <> wrote:
    > rickman wrote:
    >
    > ...
    >
    > > So just to be clear on this, you don't have a problem with all
    > > embedded related vendors coming to these newsgroups and posting
    > > advertising, marketing, update announcements or asking for "opinions"
    > > on their latest products. Is that right?

    >
    > Asking opinions can be a marketing ploy. Political and public-interest
    > organizations often include a questionnaire with low-key appeals for a
    > donation. Dan is different. He has actually acted on the suggestions he
    > got, to the point that he has produced new (and improved) versions that
    > incorporate most of them. In fact, those new versions account for the
    > profusion of announcements. Yhe longer this thread grows, the more
    > inclined I become to cheer him on.
    >
    > Jerry
    > --
    > Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
    > ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯


    Anyone who (1) develops a tool that is useful, at least in principal,
    to the majority of people doing digital design, (2) listens to and
    applies feedback derived from these postings, and (3) offers a free
    version (limited or not), would seem to be entirely justified in
    posting to at least those few groups I've seen these posts in
    (comp.lang.vhdl in particular).

    In fact, I find a number of arguably more topical, yet grossly stupid,
    posts to be much more annoying than these. I have in mind those posts
    that (to paraphrase) say "I need a VHDL module for an advanced
    multiresolution wavelet homotopy-modulated Fourier domain analyser. I
    forget how to use Google. I can also barely understand how to
    multiply single digit integers. Please send me the source code and
    hold my hand as I make an ass of myself."

    Just my two cents.

    - Kenn
    , Jul 20, 2008
    #15
  16. On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 08:30:51 -0700 (PDT), rickman <>
    wrote:

    >On Jul 20, 10:54 am, Eric Jacobsen <> wrote:
    >> On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 06:14:35 -0700 (PDT), rickman <>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> >I'm not trying to bust anyone's balls. But this guy has been
    >> >cluttering up a number of newsgroups, Yahoo groups and who knows where
    >> >else with his frequent postings. I don't object to his making it
    >> >known that there is a new product on the market. I get tired of
    >> >seeing his, sometimes bi-weekly, announcements that a new version is
    >> >out there. If anyone is looking for a timing analyzer then he will
    >> >already be easy to find. If anyone wants to know the current status
    >> >of his program he has a web site.

    >>
    >> >I just think that a lot of people, here and elsewhere, don't so much
    >> >"think" about a topic like this, they justify what they "feel". How
    >> >would people "feel" if every vendor came here to advertise, announce
    >> >new products, new features or even just to solicit comments and
    >> >advice? I remember awhile back there were some job postings and it
    >> >was rather contentious whether that was considered acceptable. For
    >> >the most part people had no logical justification for wanting to allow
    >> >that sort of post. They just tried to rationalize their feelings, "if
    >> >you were out of work, you would welcome those posts" sort of
    >> >thing.

    >>
    >> >Well my feelings are that I get tired of seeing advertising in this
    >> >group and elsewhere. I moderate multiple Yahoo groups and have made a
    >> >real effort to exclude the spam. Don't you think these groups would
    >> >be better served with less spam?

    >>
    >> >Rick

    >>
    >> Spam is going to part of the internet for the foreseeable future, and
    >> unmoderated newsgroups are always going to be subject to unwanted
    >> intrusions. I suggest you learn to use killfiles and ignore
    >> settings rather than harp on anybody who comes along that might have a
    >> product relevant to the group, because that's not going to stop.
    >> People can make their own decisions and clearly, as in this case, some
    >> people do like getting the information.
    >>
    >> For this particular case I think he's been exceptional in that he's
    >> looking for (and getting, and responding to) feedback to make his
    >> product better. Would that all vendors in relevant fields would do
    >> this.

    >
    >If I understand your post correctly, you are making two points. The
    >first is that since it is impossible to stop all spam, that we should
    >not try to stop *any* spam posts, is that correct? That is, when
    >otherwise reputable companies use spam to promote their products, we
    >should just shrug our shoulders and consider this part of the Internet
    >landscape?


    I didn't say that, no. You've read a lot into my statements that's
    not there. Feel free to re-read.

    >The second point I think you are making is that you have a personal
    >feeling that this particular spammer should be allowed because you
    >don't find his posts offensive. Is that correct?


    I wouldn't find ANY posts offensive that led to product improvement
    for tools useful to the newsgroup. How would that be off-topic? Feel
    free to re-read the last paragraph in my previous post.

    >So just to be clear on this, you don't have a problem with all
    >embedded related vendors coming to these newsgroups and posting
    >advertising, marketing, update announcements or asking for "opinions"
    >on their latest products. Is that right?
    >
    >Rick


    That's not what I said. Again, feel free to re-read the post to
    which you're responding. Especially useful to you might be the part
    about ignoring or killfiling sources that you personally don't want to
    have to deal with.

    Usenet is not, and has never been, a utopia of electronic discourse.
    The reality is that there will be objectionable and useless posts
    regardless of what anyone does. There also won't always be agreement
    on whether certain posts are useful or objectionable, and this case is
    a pretty good example of that, evidently.

    There's off topic spam (e.g., clothing sales ads in technical groups),
    there are trolls, and there are worthwhile contributions, and there's
    everything in between. I think what you're seeing is that there are
    folks who find the case in point to be in the on-topic and worthwhile
    category. Why should that be an issue?


    Eric Jacobsen
    Minister of Algorithms
    Abineau Communications
    http://www.ericjacobsen.org

    Blog: http://www.dsprelated.com/blogs-1/hf/Eric_Jacobsen.php
    Eric Jacobsen, Jul 20, 2008
    #16
  17. timinganalyzer

    rickman Guest

    On Jul 20, 1:02 pm, Jerry Avins <> wrote:
    > John Devereux wrote:
    >
    > ...
    >
    > > But you are not allowed to look at it

    >
    > > <http://www.timing-diagrams.com/license.html>

    >
    > > "You may not modify, reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the
    > > TimingAnalyzer program."

    >
    > >> and there is no long-term commercial interest. This puts it in the
    > >> same classification as Linux. He is not selling - he is offering.

    >
    > > ..."You must buy a license to use TimingAnalyzer Standard
    > > Edition(SE)"...

    >
    > > It appears to be a commercial program, free for personal,
    > > non-commercial use only. So I agree with rickman.

    >
    > Years ago, I bought ($10) a very nice interactive star map program
    > called SkyGlobe for DOS. A few years later, I got a free upgrade for
    > Windows. I still use it. This stuff is shareware, and I don't think of
    > it as commercial. I put TimingAnalyzer in the same category. I hope it
    > hets to be as polished.


    You paid for something, but it is "not commercial". If you bought it
    for DOS, I would guess that inflation makes it about equivalent to $20
    to $30 now. Jerry, you have a very unique definition of
    "commercial".

    Rick
    rickman, Jul 21, 2008
    #17
  18. timinganalyzer

    rickman Guest

    On Jul 20, 10:38 am, timinganalyzer <> wrote:
    > On Jul 20, 9:14 am, rickman <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > > On Jul 20, 1:06 am, CBFalconer <> wrote:

    >
    > > > As far as I can tell the source is available, and there is no
    > > > long-term commercial interest. This puts it in the same
    > > > classification as Linux. He is not selling - he is offering.

    >
    > > Did you actually look at his web page? There is nothing "open" about
    > > this program and the only "free" is the limited capability version
    > > licensed only for "personal or academic use", not commercial.

    >
    > >http://www.timing-diagrams.com/license.html

    >
    > > In particular,

    >
    > > "You must buy a license to use TimingAnalyzer Standard Edition(SE)"

    >
    > > and

    >
    > > "You may not modify, reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the
    > > TimingAnalyzer program."

    >
    > > I'm not trying to bust anyone's balls. But this guy has been
    > > cluttering up a number of newsgroups, Yahoo groups and who knows where
    > > else with his frequent postings. I don't object to his making it
    > > known that there is a new product on the market. I get tired of
    > > seeing his, sometimes bi-weekly, announcements that a new version is
    > > out there. If anyone is looking for a timing analyzer then he will
    > > already be easy to find. If anyone wants to know the current status
    > > of his program he has a web site.

    >
    > > I just think that a lot of people, here and elsewhere, don't so much
    > > "think" about a topic like this, they justify what they "feel". How
    > > would people "feel" if every vendor came here to advertise, announce
    > > new products, new features or even just to solicit comments and
    > > advice? I remember awhile back there were some job postings and it
    > > was rather contentious whether that was considered acceptable. For
    > > the most part people had no logical justification for wanting to allow
    > > that sort of post. They just tried to rationalize their feelings, "if
    > > you were out of work, you would welcome those posts" sort of
    > > thing.

    >
    > > Well my feelings are that I get tired of seeing advertising in this
    > > group and elsewhere. I moderate multiple Yahoo groups and have made a
    > > real effort to exclude the spam. Don't you think these groups would
    > > be better served with less spam?

    >
    > > Rick

    >
    > Hello All,
    >
    > I'm sorry to be the cause of this debate. Originally, my intentions
    > were to find some beta testers to help me test the program and at the
    > same time get some visibility to potential customers. Its hard to
    > find experience engineers to help. I have been getting feedback from
    > users of each beta version which has been helpful.
    >
    > rickman, Yes, I have made the announcement on other groups that I
    > thought were relative to digital logic timing analysis and drawing
    > timings. I am not just blindly sendiing frequent postings to any
    > group that are not related.
    >
    > But, I will follow any newsgroup guidelines there are and will not
    > clutter them will frequent announcements anymore if that is considered
    > spam or not good practice.
    >
    > Regards,
    > Dan


    Dan,

    Please don't worry about it. Although I am saying that I think the
    posts are not appropriate for these groups (I can't say about the ones
    I don't frequent), I'm certainly not saying you are a bad person or
    that your product is bad. I'm really just trying to make a point.
    This happened a while back when someone posted an advert about a job
    and a long controversy erupted when someone called is spam.

    I only posted about it because I have seen your posts frequently in
    time and see them in some three or four groups that I read. But you
    have said that you won't continue doing that and I am happy with that
    response. I wish you good luck with your program and when I have more
    time I may take another look at it.

    At this point I just think that some people are taking absurd stances
    and I am trying to pin them down so they can see what they are really
    saying. Or maybe I will see that I am not making sense. Either way,
    this discussion is not really about you any more. So don't sweat
    it!

    Rick
    rickman, Jul 21, 2008
    #18
    1. Advertising

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