CLPM - a help group?

Discussion in 'Perl Misc' started by sln@netherlands.com, Aug 2, 2008.

  1. Guest

    Whats the charter of this newsgroup?
    Is it strictly Q&A?

    All questions. Post code without a question reveals nothing.
    I wouldn't call this an educational/professional group in that case.

    Am I posting to the wrong group? Just what is this group for?

    Not for programmers it seems.

    Perhaps it should be renamed to

    comp.lang.perl.questions.misc.beginner.programmer.edu

    Because it makes sence.

    Whats the answer, this is a question?

    sln
    , Aug 2, 2008
    #1
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  2. brian d foy Guest

    In article <>,
    <> wrote:

    > Whats the charter of this newsgroup?
    > Is it strictly Q&A?


    I've never seen an official charter for this group, but it certainly
    isn't a help desk. It's for general discussion of Perl. That might be
    questions, answers, essays, or whatever else people decide to post.

    People post the thoughtful stuff in blogs now, so you don't see much of
    that in usenet anymore.

    > Am I posting to the wrong group? Just what is this group for?


    It depends on what you are trying to acheive. If you're looking to
    learn perl, you probably want to move over to learn.perl.org and look
    at its discussion lists.

    If you want detailed discussions of the gory details of Perl, you might
    try PerlMonks.

    If you are interested in topical discussion of narrow topics, look at
    the Perl mailing lists to see if one meets your needs:
    http://lists.cpan.org/

    If you're looking for something else, tell us what it is and somebody
    might be able to point you in the right direction.

    clpm is what it is, despite what anyone tries to make it. If that works
    for you, great. If it doesn't, there's not much chance of making it
    into something else.

    Good luck :)
    brian d foy, Aug 3, 2008
    #2
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  3. Adam Worrall Guest

    brian d foy wrote:
    > In article <>,
    > <> writes:
    >
    > > Whats the charter of this newsgroup?
    > > Is it strictly Q&A?


    According to the original charter, one may discuss anything Perl:

    <ftp://ftp.isc.org/pub/usenet/control/comp/comp.lang.perl.gz>
    From Thu May 23 13:40:31 1991
    Path: rpi!think.com!compass!news
    From: (news)
    Newsgroups: comp.lang.perl.ctl
    Subject: newgroup comp.lang.perl
    Message-ID: <>
    Date: 23 May 91 16:14:05 GMT
    Control: newgroup comp.lang.perl
    Distribution: world
    Organization: Compass, Inc., Wakefield, MA
    Lines: 1
    Approved:

    Discussion of Larry Wall's Perl system.

    And the .misc charter:

    <ftp://ftp.isc.org/pub/usenet/control/comp/comp.lang.perl.misc.gz>
    From Mon May 8 16:46:29 1995
    Path: uunet!tale
    From: (David C Lawrence)
    Newsgroups: comp.lang.perl.misc
    Subject: newgroup comp.lang.perl.misc
    Control: newgroup comp.lang.perl.misc
    Approved:
    Message-ID: <>
    Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 20:43:32 GMT
    Lines: 12
    Xref: uunet control:1996186

    comp.lang.perl.misc is an unmoderated newsgroup which passed its
    vote for creation by 328:48 as reported in news.announce.newgroups
    on 1 May 1995.This group supersedes comp.lang.perl, which will be
    removed on 8 Aug 1995.

    For your newsgroups file:
    comp.lang.perl.misc The Perl language in general.

    The charter, culled from the call for votes:

    Existing traffic in comp.lang.perl will migrate to
    comp.lang.perl.misc, which will remain an unmoderated newsgroup for
    discussion of issues of all sorts relating to perl.


    > I've never seen an official charter for this group, but it certainly
    > isn't a help desk. It's for general discussion of Perl. That might be
    > questions, answers, essays, or whatever else people decide to post.


    Please explain, who actually decides that it isn't a help? I never saw
    Larry Wall state that in this group. It's not in the charter, which
    actually says the opposite:

    Existing traffic in comp.lang.perl will migrate to
    comp.lang.perl.misc, which will remain an unmoderated newsgroup for
    discussion of issues of all sorts relating to perl.

    "discussion of issues of all sorts relating to perl", and help questions
    fall into this category.

    > People post the thoughtful stuff in blogs now, so you don't see much of
    > that in usenet anymore.


    Sigh... ain't that the truth.

    > > Am I posting to the wrong group? Just what is this group for?


    It's for "discussion of issues of all sorts relating to perl."

    > It depends on what you are trying to acheive.


    No, the only requirement to post here is if it's a Perl related question.

    > If you're looking to learn perl, you probably want to move
    > over to learn.perl.org and look at its discussion lists.
    >
    > If you want detailed discussions of the gory details of Perl, you might
    > try PerlMonks.


    I would say use the lists or nntp.perl.org, this news group, and the
    'Monks list.

    > clpm is what it is, despite what anyone tries to make it.


    What I dislike it the arm-chair legislation that some people love to
    impose; this notion that "this is not a help desk", for instance, is
    bunk. It's not a _personal_ help desk, but in a sense, it is a public
    volunteer based help desk, as people come and ask questions and often
    someone answers them. I don't know how else you can describe a "help desk."

    > If it doesn't, there's not much chance of making it into something else.


    I think the ruling populous did that a long time ago.

    - Adam
    Adam Worrall, Aug 4, 2008
    #3
  4. Guest

    On Sat, 02 Aug 2008 18:09:47 -0500, brian d foy <> wrote:

    >In article <>,
    ><> wrote:
    >
    >> Whats the charter of this newsgroup?
    >> Is it strictly Q&A?

    >
    >I've never seen an official charter for this group, but it certainly
    >isn't a help desk. It's for general discussion of Perl. That might be
    >questions, answers, essays, or whatever else people decide to post.
    >
    >People post the thoughtful stuff in blogs now, so you don't see much of
    >that in usenet anymore.
    >
    >> Am I posting to the wrong group? Just what is this group for?

    >
    >It depends on what you are trying to acheive. If you're looking to
    >learn perl, you probably want to move over to learn.perl.org and look
    >at its discussion lists.
    >
    >If you want detailed discussions of the gory details of Perl, you might
    >try PerlMonks.
    >
    >If you are interested in topical discussion of narrow topics, look at
    >the Perl mailing lists to see if one meets your needs:
    >http://lists.cpan.org/
    >
    >If you're looking for something else, tell us what it is and somebody
    >might be able to point you in the right direction.
    >
    >clpm is what it is, despite what anyone tries to make it. If that works
    >for you, great. If it doesn't, there's not much chance of making it
    >into something else.
    >
    >Good luck :)


    Thank You!

    This seems like the perfect place for me.
    I will use this group as a repository to dump large scale code into.

    How far back are the posts saved?

    sln
    , Aug 4, 2008
    #4
  5. <> wrote:


    > How far back are the posts saved?



    Saved where, exactly?

    There is no "central" server on Usenet.

    Each Usenet servers retains articles for as long as their
    individual news administrators have configured them to be kept.

    You need to direct that question at whomever you are getting
    your news feed from, as they are the only ones who know the answer.


    See also:

    "How the Usenet News Protocols Work"

    http://people.dsv.su.se/~jpalme/e-mail-book/usenet-news.html


    --
    Tad McClellan
    email: perl -le "print scalar reverse qq/moc.noitatibaher\100cmdat/"
    Tad J McClellan, Aug 5, 2008
    #5
  6. cartercc Guest

    On Aug 2, 7:09 pm, brian d foy <> wrote:
    > People post the thoughtful stuff in blogs now, so you don't see much of
    > that in usenet anymore.


    I've had the bad experience several times now of seeing news groups
    trashed and driving people away. It seems like a good idea to have a
    general discussion area for topics, but there seems to be a Gresham's
    law for usenet -- over time the bad posters kill the group.

    The reason I don't like blogs is because I haven't found a way to do a
    centralized search. You can find a blog anywhere, or not. At least
    with the usenet heirarchy you can pretty quickly narrow down your
    interest group.

    Maybe the success of usenet is killing it. With a small group of
    people mostly knowledgable and mostly interested you find people like
    Larry Wall, or Randel Schwartz, or brian d foy participating. With
    greater numbers of people futzing the signal to noise ratio, it gets a
    lot harder.

    > clpm is what it is, despite what anyone tries to make it. If that works
    > for you, great. If it doesn't, there's not much chance of making it
    > into something else.


    I have found c.l.p.m. a helpful resource, and I try to give something
    back occasionally as payment for what I have received. There is
    certainly a place for groups like this, and I'm wishing for a long and
    successful run. Even if I have my doubts.

    CC
    cartercc, Aug 5, 2008
    #6
  7. brian d foy Guest

    In article <%9Hlk.17313$>, Adam Worrall
    <> wrote:


    > > I've never seen an official charter for this group, but it certainly
    > > isn't a help desk. It's for general discussion of Perl. That might be
    > > questions, answers, essays, or whatever else people decide to post.

    >
    > Please explain, who actually decides that it isn't a help?


    I think you mean "isn't a help desk". A help desk is a formally
    established service where customers walk up and someone helps them.

    No one here is obligated to do anything, and there aren't office hours,
    shifts, or responsilibities. That people do answer questions here
    doesn't mean it's purpose is to answer questions.

    Help desks aren't lunch rooms, football fields, or street corners. This
    newsgroup, however, can be whatever it decides to be, and even that can
    change.
    brian d foy, Aug 5, 2008
    #7
  8. Justin C Guest

    On 2008-08-04, <> wrote:
    >
    > This seems like the perfect place for me.
    > I will use this group as a repository to dump large scale code into.
    >
    > How far back are the posts saved?


    I think your first step would be to go and find out what usenet is, it
    doesn't seem that you are quite sure. Until you know, I don't know how
    you can be sure that this newsgroup is the place to 'dump large scale
    code'.

    Justin.

    --
    Justin C, by the sea.
    Justin C, Aug 5, 2008
    #8
  9. John Bokma Guest

    bugbear <bugbear@trim_papermule.co.uk_trim> wrote:

    > cartercc wrote:
    >> On Aug 2, 7:09 pm, brian d foy <> wrote:
    >>> People post the thoughtful stuff in blogs now, so you don't see much
    >>> of that in usenet anymore.

    >>
    >> I've had the bad experience several times now of seeing news groups
    >> trashed and driving people away. It seems like a good idea to have a
    >> general discussion area for topics, but there seems to be a Gresham's
    >> law for usenet -- over time the bad posters kill the group.
    >>
    >> The reason I don't like blogs is because I haven't found a way to do
    >> a centralized search. You can find a blog anywhere, or not.

    >
    > Indeed; and if there are (e.g.) 5 wise people
    > you need to search 5 blogs.


    Or let Google do the work, e.g. 2 sites:

    <http://www.google.com/search?q=site:castleamber.com OR site%
    3Ajohnbokma.com%20zelazny>

    If you use Firefox, make a keymark [1], and you can do something like

    keyword query

    with keyword the keyword associated with the bookmark, and query the
    query to search for over all 5 sites.


    [1] See: http://johnbokma.com/firefox/keymarks-explained.html

    --
    John

    http://johnbokma.com/perl/
    John Bokma, Aug 5, 2008
    #9
  10. Adam Worrall wrote:
    > Yes I meant 'help desk', but you are wrong in assuming that a 'help
    > desk' always has to be a formal service for customers. There are, in
    > fact, many volunteer-run help desk, and this newsgroup, like many
    > others, functions as exactly that. People volunteer their time to _help_
    > others.


    I believe that the aversion to calling c.l.p.misc a "help desk" is
    because that term carries a connotation that the purpose of the group is
    to provide a service where someone will solve your problem for you. The
    regular contributors to this group are, on the whole, very resistant to
    that idea. "RTFM. What have you tried? Show us your code."

    nobull phrased it very well:

    "Get real! This is a discussion group, not a helpdesk. You post
    something, we discuss its implications. If the discussion happens
    to answer a question you've asked, that's incidental."

    The purpose of the group is to discuss Perl: it's strengths, weaknesses,
    idioms, quirks, dusty corners, etc. The asking and answering of
    questions are merely a mechanism by which discussion topics are identified.

    -mjc
    Michael Carman, Aug 6, 2008
    #10
  11. Adam Worrall Guest

    Michael Carman wrote:
    > Adam Worrall wrote:
    >> Yes I meant 'help desk', but you are wrong in assuming that a 'help
    >> desk' always has to be a formal service for customers. There are, in
    >> fact, many volunteer-run help desk, and this newsgroup, like many
    >> others, functions as exactly that. People volunteer their time to
    >> _help_ others.

    >
    > I believe that the aversion to calling c.l.p.misc a "help desk" is
    > because that term carries a connotation that the purpose of the group is
    > to provide a service where someone will solve your problem for you. The
    > regular contributors to this group are, on the whole, very resistant to
    > that idea. "RTFM. What have you tried? Show us your code."
    >
    > nobull phrased it very well:
    >
    > "Get real! This is a discussion group, not a helpdesk. You post
    > something, we discuss its implications. If the discussion happens
    > to answer a question you've asked, that's incidental."
    >
    > The purpose of the group is to discuss Perl: it's strengths, weaknesses,
    > idioms, quirks, dusty corners, etc. The asking and answering of
    > questions are merely a mechanism by which discussion topics are identified.


    I understand what you are saying, but it still doesn't answer my
    question: who exactly gets to decide what is and isn't acceptable for
    everyone in a news group? AKAIK, no one simple person can claim
    ownership of a news group, so telling someone something along the lines
    of "this is not a help desk" is legislating your own beliefs, which is
    contrary to what Usenet is and how it works (at least in terms of open
    non-moderated groups.)

    - Adam
    Adam Worrall, Aug 6, 2008
    #11
  12. Adam Worrall wrote:
    > Michael Carman wrote:
    >> Adam Worrall wrote:
    >>> Yes I meant 'help desk', but you are wrong in assuming that a 'help
    >>> desk' always has to be a formal service for customers. There are, in
    >>> fact, many volunteer-run help desk, and this newsgroup, like many
    >>> others, functions as exactly that. People volunteer their time to
    >>> _help_ others.

    >>
    >> I believe that the aversion to calling c.l.p.misc a "help desk" is
    >> because that term carries a connotation that the purpose of the group
    >> is to provide a service where someone will solve your problem for you.
    >> The regular contributors to this group are, on the whole, very
    >> resistant to that idea. "RTFM. What have you tried? Show us your code."
    >>
    >> nobull phrased it very well:
    >>
    >> "Get real! This is a discussion group, not a helpdesk. You post
    >> something, we discuss its implications. If the discussion happens
    >> to answer a question you've asked, that's incidental."
    >>
    >> The purpose of the group is to discuss Perl: it's strengths,
    >> weaknesses, idioms, quirks, dusty corners, etc. The asking and
    >> answering of questions are merely a mechanism by which discussion
    >> topics are identified.

    >
    > I understand what you are saying, but it still doesn't answer my
    > question: who exactly gets to decide what is and isn't acceptable for
    > everyone in a news group? AKAIK, no one simple person can claim
    > ownership of a news group, so telling someone something along the lines
    > of "this is not a help desk" is legislating your own beliefs, which is
    > contrary to what Usenet is and how it works (at least in terms of open
    > non-moderated groups.)


    If I said "comp.lang.perl.misc is not a place for discussing pet
    allergies" would I be legislating my own belief?

    If I were to say "comp.lang.perl.misc is not a help desk" I would be
    merely stating my opinion on the consensus view (as observed by me) of
    the main participants as to how they choose to participate and comparing
    that consensus with a scenario in which people are employed (paid) to
    answer customer enquiries.

    When I say "the sky is blue" it is an observation, I am not legislating
    what the sky may or may not do.

    Your Mileage May Vary.

    --
    RGB
    RedGrittyBrick, Aug 6, 2008
    #12
  13. brian d foy Guest

    In article <>, bugbear
    <bugbear@trim_papermule.co.uk_trim> wrote:


    > Indeed; and if there are (e.g.) 5 wise people
    > you need to search 5 blogs.


    or one google :)
    brian d foy, Aug 6, 2008
    #13
  14. brian d foy Guest

    In article <vvbmk.16412$>, Adam Worrall
    <> wrote:

    > I understand what you are saying, but it still doesn't answer my
    > question: who exactly gets to decide what is and isn't acceptable for
    > everyone in a news group?


    The charter decides that. Beyond that, there is no clpm police that
    gets to decide. So, post whatever Perl stuff you like.

    This still isn't a help desk, but I'm usually happy to help people when
    I can. :)
    brian d foy, Aug 6, 2008
    #14
  15. Adam Worrall Guest

    RedGrittyBrick wrote:
    > Adam Worrall wrote:
    >> Michael Carman wrote:
    >>> Adam Worrall wrote:
    >>>> Yes I meant 'help desk', but you are wrong in assuming that a 'help
    >>>> desk' always has to be a formal service for customers. There are, in
    >>>> fact, many volunteer-run help desk, and this newsgroup, like many
    >>>> others, functions as exactly that. People volunteer their time to
    >>>> _help_ others.
    >>>
    >>> I believe that the aversion to calling c.l.p.misc a "help desk" is
    >>> because that term carries a connotation that the purpose of the group
    >>> is to provide a service where someone will solve your problem for
    >>> you. The regular contributors to this group are, on the whole, very
    >>> resistant to that idea. "RTFM. What have you tried? Show us your code."
    >>>
    >>> nobull phrased it very well:
    >>>
    >>> "Get real! This is a discussion group, not a helpdesk. You post
    >>> something, we discuss its implications. If the discussion happens
    >>> to answer a question you've asked, that's incidental."
    >>>
    >>> The purpose of the group is to discuss Perl: it's strengths,
    >>> weaknesses, idioms, quirks, dusty corners, etc. The asking and
    >>> answering of questions are merely a mechanism by which discussion
    >>> topics are identified.

    >>
    >> I understand what you are saying, but it still doesn't answer my
    >> question: who exactly gets to decide what is and isn't acceptable for
    >> everyone in a news group? AKAIK, no one simple person can claim
    >> ownership of a news group, so telling someone something along the
    >> lines of "this is not a help desk" is legislating your own beliefs,
    >> which is contrary to what Usenet is and how it works (at least in
    >> terms of open non-moderated groups.)

    >
    > If I said "comp.lang.perl.misc is not a place for discussing pet
    > allergies" would I be legislating my own belief?


    No you would obviously be wrong, as the charter clearly states that this
    group is for all things Perl and discussions of "pet allergies" is
    clearly off topic. But that is no where near the same as saying "this is
    not a help desk" which is a personal view that is not something the
    charter (for this or it's predecessor group) had written.

    > If I were to say "comp.lang.perl.misc is not a help desk" I would be
    > merely stating my opinion on the consensus view (as observed by me) of
    > the main participants as to how they choose to participate and comparing
    > that consensus with a scenario in which people are employed (paid) to
    > answer customer enquiries.


    You're assuming the consensus (as in everyone's opinion) is in agreeance
    to what you are saying, and that is something you cannot really confirm.
    further more, stop perpetuating the the false view that all help desks
    are for paid organizations, as plenty are volunteer-run and many are
    non-profit.

    > When I say "the sky is blue" it is an observation, I am not legislating
    > what the sky may or may not do.


    But it is a known fact that the sky is blue, which is different than a
    handful of people telling you that a group shouldn't be used in a why
    _they_ don't happen to approve of.


    - Adam
    Adam Worrall, Aug 7, 2008
    #15
  16. Adam Worrall Guest

    brian d foy wrote:
    > In article <vvbmk.16412$>, Adam Worrall
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> I understand what you are saying, but it still doesn't answer my
    >> question: who exactly gets to decide what is and isn't acceptable for
    >> everyone in a news group?

    >
    > The charter decides that. Beyond that, there is no clpm police that
    > gets to decide. So, post whatever Perl stuff you like.
    >
    > This still isn't a help desk, but I'm usually happy to help people when
    > I can. :)


    No disrespect intended, but I don't think you've ever spent any time on
    a volunteer-run help desk before. Oh wait, you post in clpm :)

    - Adam
    Adam Worrall, Aug 7, 2008
    #16
  17. Adam Worrall <> wrote:
    > RedGrittyBrick wrote:


    >> If I were to say "comp.lang.perl.misc is not a help desk" I would be
    >> merely stating my opinion



    Just as Adam is free to state his opinion that it _is_ a help desk.


    >> on the consensus view (as observed by me) of
    >> the main participants


    > You're assuming the consensus (as in everyone's opinion) is in agreeance
    > to what you are saying, and that is something you cannot really confirm.



    And neither can you confirm that it is not the consensus.

    So where does that leave us?


    > further more, stop perpetuating the the false view that all help desks
    > are for paid organizations, as plenty are volunteer-run and many are
    > non-profit.



    It is not the pay vs. no pay.

    It is the "obligation to help" that most people associate with
    a "help desk". I would expect that even volunteers at a help desk
    are obligated to deliver help.

    There is no obligation to help in clpmisc, which is why people
    say that it is not a help desk.


    > But it is a known fact that the sky is blue, which is different than a
    > handful of people telling you that a group shouldn't be used in a why
    > _they_ don't happen to approve of.



    A person can say that this is a help desk.

    A person can say that this is not a help desk.

    Each of those people has equal righteousness. (hint, hint)



    (
    And I think you do all Perlers a disservice to insist on calling
    this group a "help desk".

    If they begin to actually treat it like a help desk, where they
    expect the fully-formed solution to their problem, then they will
    likely get _less_ help (due to being auto-scored into invisibility).

    Helping folks to get less help is not being helpful.
    )

    --
    Tad McClellan
    email: perl -le "print scalar reverse qq/moc.noitatibaher\100cmdat/"
    Tad J McClellan, Aug 7, 2008
    #17
  18. Adam Worrall wrote:
    > RedGrittyBrick wrote:
    >> Adam Worrall wrote:

    >
    >> When I say "the sky is blue" it is an observation, I am not
    >> legislating what the sky may or may not do.

    >
    > But it is a known fact that the sky is blue,


    Today it is grey.

    > which is different than a
    > handful of people telling you that a group shouldn't be used in a why
    > _they_ don't happen to approve of.


    You miss my point. I can observe that CLPM does not behave like a help
    desk. That does not mean I am "legislating" what CLPM participants may
    do. Whether my observation is right or wrong has no bearing on this.

    ~~~

    Tad probably has it right, some posters presume that readers are under
    some obligation to answer their questions by supplying ready-made solutions.

    You often see "if you can't answer my question just shut up" from
    posters new to a newsgroup when faced with a pointer to a FAQ or a
    criticism of their posting style.

    Any social group develops customs. It is useful for newcomers to know
    what those are, before they decide whether they want to try and change
    them. I suspect many such customs persist because they help make CLPM a
    useful place.

    Many of those who say something like "usenet isn't a help-desk" I
    recognise as long standing participants who have contributed positively
    to this newsgroup over many years and from whom I have learned much
    about Perl. Those who say something like "usenet is a help desk" seem
    not to be such people.

    --
    RGB
    RedGrittyBrick, Aug 7, 2008
    #18
  19. brian d foy Guest

    In article <Girmk.19323$>, Adam Worrall
    <> wrote:


    > > This still isn't a help desk, but I'm usually happy to help people when
    > > I can. :)

    >
    > No disrespect intended, but I don't think you've ever spent any time on
    > a volunteer-run help desk before. Oh wait, you post in clpm :)


    I've sat on volunteer help desks and paid help desks. You might say
    that you mean no disrespect, but **** you. You said it, you mean it,
    and you're too much of a pussy to stand by what you typed and posted.
    Take your smiley and shove it up you ass.

    But no matter. You're just another shithead who won't be around in a
    year when I'm still answering questions and helping people.
    brian d foy, Aug 7, 2008
    #19
  20. Adam Worrall Guest

    Tad J McClellan wrote:
    > Adam Worrall <> wrote:
    >> RedGrittyBrick wrote:

    >
    >>> If I were to say "comp.lang.perl.misc is not a help desk" I would be
    >>> merely stating my opinion

    >
    >
    > Just as Adam is free to state his opinion that it _is_ a help desk.


    Ok.

    >>> on the consensus view (as observed by me) of
    >>> the main participants

    >
    >> You're assuming the consensus (as in everyone's opinion) is in agreeance
    >> to what you are saying, and that is something you cannot really confirm.

    >
    >
    > And neither can you confirm that it is not the consensus.
    >
    > So where does that leave us?


    I leaves us with a charter that doesn't say it is or isn't a "help
    desk", and anyone attempting to make authoritative claims it no better
    than a DNS server giving responses for a domain it is not responsible for.

    >> further more, stop perpetuating the the false view that all help desks
    >> are for paid organizations, as plenty are volunteer-run and many are
    >> non-profit.

    >
    >
    > It is not the pay vs. no pay.


    Actually it is, in terms of types of help desks out there.

    > It is the "obligation to help" that most people associate with
    > a "help desk". I would expect that even volunteers at a help desk
    > are obligated to deliver help.


    How can a _volunteer_ service be _obligated_ to do anything? They are
    volunteers...

    > There is no obligation to help in clpmisc, which is why people
    > say that it is not a help desk.


    Which is wrong, because clpmisc functions as a volunteer help service.

    - Adam
    Adam Worrall, Aug 7, 2008
    #20
    1. Advertising

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