Community (A Modest Proposal)

Discussion in 'Python' started by rantingrick, Jun 13, 2010.

  1. rantingrick

    rantingrick Guest

    -------------------------
    Where is the community?
    -------------------------

    I think the Python community is broken. I think we don't really "have"
    a community. It's more like a handful of negitive people at the top
    and every one else is chopped liver.

    Just today i saw another chance to contribute code to Python's stdlib,
    but then that nagging feeling of "Whats the use, these people are just
    going to discredit you and never accept code from you just because
    they hate you". Sadly though the only damage is done to Python.

    For those who are not aware my very first post to c.l.p (and Usenet)
    was about 1.5 years ago. At that time i saw a void that Python could
    fill nicely as a simple scripting language for an very quickly
    advancing 3D modeling application (Google SketchUp). (You can search
    the archives for a thread called..."Help, Google SketchUp needs a
    Python API" if you are interested.)

    So i my first thought was to find out if anyone was interested in
    starting this project up. So i posted my ideas and to my complete and
    utter surprise i was lynched by the Python community as a heretic...."
    How dare you ask other people to help do what you should be doing
    yourself "... well that was the "Sunday school" version of the
    responses i received. I was discredited and mobbed for no apparent
    reason except that i had the balls to ask the question in the first
    place. I was only looking to get feedback, but the endless hoards
    insisted that "they" new my intentions better than *I*.

    Why was the reaction so negative? Well i will admit some fault in the
    fact that i trashed Ruby pretty bad. I felt everything i said was true
    IMO then as is now (mostly). People should have a right to opinions.
    However since i was such an "unknown" and you could say a "newbie",
    was this reaction warranted? I think not, and it speaks volumes to the
    negative attitudes within this community.

    This brings me to a new question. How many really exceptional Python
    programmers have been left out OR pushed out because of the extreme
    narcissism of the "core" python group. And when i say "core" i am
    speaking of the handful of people who hang out here discrediting and
    mobbing anybody they see as a threat to their superiority. They clutch
    to power like a hated dictator because that is all they have left.

    You people need to get a life, drop your narcissistic attitudes and be
    more helpful, friendly, and welcoming to the wider world. This
    community is not a community, its a "Cosa Nostra". Your predator like
    behaviors are bleeding the spirit of Python's community. This
    community does not belong to you or me or even GvR, we all share an
    equal piece. And no matter how much, or little, each of use
    contribute, we all share an equally divided peice.

    I have spoken with "other" Python programmers (far more advanced than
    myself) who echo this sentiment. However unlike me they cannot afford
    to sacrifice their image to this group, EVEN if the group is at fault!
    However this behavior is causing Python to suffer from lack of diverse
    developers, and shrinks the pool of those who wish to participate.

    But i'll tell you one thing, you will never bleed me dry because i am
    stronger than all! I will be a thorn in your sides every time you pick
    on a newbie. I will point out every negative comment you make, it will
    not be hidden as you like. Whether i am accepted or assassinated i
    will create an irreversible butterfly affect that no organization of
    negativity can endure. I will bring some positive attitudes to this
    group if it's the last thing i do! That will be my contribution to
    this group, and it may just save the Python community as a whole!
    rantingrick, Jun 13, 2010
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. On Sat, Jun 12, 2010 at 11:09 PM, rantingrick <> wrote:
    >
    > -------------------------
    >  Where is the community?
    > -------------------------

    [snip]
    >
    > You people need to get a life, drop your narcissistic attitudes and be
    > more helpful, friendly, and welcoming to the wider world. This
    > community is not a community, its a "Cosa Nostra". Your predator like
    > behaviors are bleeding the spirit of Python's community. This
    > community does not belong to you or me or even GvR, we all share an
    > equal piece. And no matter how much, or little, each of use
    > contribute, we all share an equally divided peice.
    >
    > I have spoken with "other" Python programmers (far more advanced than
    > myself) who echo this sentiment. However unlike me they cannot afford
    > to sacrifice their image to this group, EVEN if the group is at fault!
    > However this behavior is causing Python to suffer from lack of diverse
    > developers, and shrinks the pool of those who wish to participate.
    >
    > But i'll tell you one thing, you will never bleed me dry because i am
    > stronger than all! I will be a thorn in your sides every time you pick
    > on a newbie. I will point out every negative comment you make, it will
    > not be hidden as you like. Whether i am accepted or assassinated i
    > will create an irreversible butterfly affect that no organization of
    > negativity can endure. I will bring some positive attitudes to this
    > group if it's the last thing i do! That will be my contribution to
    > this group, and it may just save the Python community as a whole!


    8/10 on the troll scale. Handsome work.

    You are aware that python has over 120 core commiters - which is quite
    large for a project of our size. To put it differently: at a typical
    PyCon any random lunch table will have someone with a commit bit
    sitting at it. 900 people are listed in Misc/ACKS which is lower than
    the real number because people frequently forget to include it in
    their patch (or are too modest to do so).

    Furthermore the PSF now has an active program to get more people
    involved with core development. A combination of money and volunteer
    time is being spent on encouraging would-be contributors to do so.

    In various threads you haven't met the minimum qualifications to be
    taken seriously: you have contributed no code, don't even bother to
    use something that looks like a real name, and continually demand that
    volunteers (which we all are) write code to fulfill your speculative
    needs.

    If-it-walks-like-a-troll-and-smells-like-a-troll-it's-a-troll-ly,

    -Jack
    Jack Diederich, Jun 13, 2010
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. rantingrick

    James Mills Guest

    On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 1:57 PM, Jack Diederich <> wrote:
    > On Sat, Jun 12, 2010 at 11:09 PM, rantingrick <> wrote:
    >>
    >> -------------------------
    >>  Where is the community?
    >> -------------------------

    > [snip]


    [snip]

    > In various threads you haven't met the minimum qualifications to be
    > taken seriously: you have contributed no code, don't even bother to
    > use something that looks like a real name, and continually demand that
    > volunteers (which we all are) write code to fulfill your speculative
    > needs.


    I'm sorry Rick (if that's even your name), I have to agree with Jack.

    Nobody really enjoys or even cares (or likes) people that complain
    and contribute nothing. I have read (and I believe was partly involved
    with your thread 1.5 years ago or so) and well it seemed you were
    only interested in finding out if "others" were willing to put "their time"
    and effort into doing the work.

    Also I should point out that no-one is going to take you seriously
    when you publically point out your 1.5 years experience in using
    (what projects have you actively worked on and contributed to?) Python.

    Have a nice day,

    cheers
    James
    James Mills, Jun 13, 2010
    #3
  4. On 12Jun2010 20:09, rantingrick <> wrote:
    | I think the Python community is broken. I think we don't really "have"
    | a community. It's more like a handful of negitive people at the top
    | and every one else is chopped liver.

    Hmm. I think this is an overreaction. I must be chopped liver myself,
    though I've rarely felt outright rejected here.

    Of course, me not being part of the core" and all, everything below is
    merely my opinion.

    | Just today i saw another chance to contribute code to Python's stdlib,
    | but then that nagging feeling of "Whats the use, these people are just
    | going to discredit you and never accept code from you just because
    | they hate you". Sadly though the only damage is done to Python.

    The stdlib isn't where code should start.

    Code should start on your machine, probably then post to
    http://pypi.python.org/pypi when it's usable (and, in your opinion at
    least, _useful_) if you want others to have easy access.

    Stuff for the stdlib needs to serve a widely felt need, solve the
    problem in a well defined way and be both clean in interface and
    practially bugfree. This is because _everyone_ who uses python gets a
    copy of the stdlib and should be able to rely on it totally for what
    facilities it does provide.

    | For those who are not aware my very first post to c.l.p (and Usenet)
    | was about 1.5 years ago. At that time i saw a void that Python could
    | fill nicely as a simple scripting language for an very quickly
    | advancing 3D modeling application (Google SketchUp). (You can search
    | the archives for a thread called..."Help, Google SketchUp needs a
    | Python API" if you are interested.)

    A direct link to the start of thread would have been nice... Anyway,
    I've just searched it out and read chunk of it.

    Your enthusiasm is encouraging, but you _do_ start by bagging Ruby and
    saying nobody can find it easy to use. This is clearly false given how
    many people like it so much - it certainly appears very succinct to my
    eye from the examples I've seen, and it _will_ appeal strong to people
    of a mathematical bent and likely fans of functional languages.

    Then as the thread progresses you rant somewhat about how nobdy is
    jumping in to join your quest to bring Python to SketchUp, and complain
    that nobody is prepared to advocate for python in another arena.

    You're doing this wrong:

    - you need to produce a prototyple yourself first, however small

    - you need to not bag out Ruby, especially if you're going to
    go and repeat the exercise in the existing Ruby-centric list

    - you need to _not_ expect help on your pet project here in python-list;
    the place you're going to find SketchUp enthusiasts is the SketchUp list,
    not here; go and ask "can someone help me make a Python API paralleling
    the Ruby API" _there_!


    | So i my first thought was to find out if anyone was interested in
    | starting this project up. So i posted my ideas and to my complete and
    | utter surprise i was lynched by the Python community as a heretic...."
    | How dare you ask other people to help do what you should be doing
    | yourself "... well that was the "Sunday school" version of the
    | responses i received. I was discredited and mobbed for no apparent
    | reason except that i had the balls to ask the question in the first
    | place. I was only looking to get feedback, but the endless hoards
    | insisted that "they" new my intentions better than *I*.

    I've read some of these responses. You're misreading things, or coming
    with unrealistic expectations.

    You did get a "put up of shut up" response; this was blunt, but you
    really do need to bring stuff to the party yourself. There are many many
    people who think "something should be done" for a variety of somethings.
    But for your pet "something" you must provide a start of your own; my
    incomplete scan of the thread suggests that _here_, in c.l.p/python-list,
    you are the sole SketchUp scripting enthusiast.
    So you should be looking for supporters there, not here.

    | Why was the reaction so negative? Well i will admit some fault in the
    | fact that i trashed Ruby pretty bad. I felt everything i said was true
    | IMO then as is now (mostly). People should have a right to opinions.
    | However since i was such an "unknown" and you could say a "newbie",
    | was this reaction warranted? I think not, and it speaks volumes to the
    | negative attitudes within this community.

    No, it speaks volumes to your expectations. c.l.p is, in my experience,
    an _extremely_ civil group. Occasionally blunt, but almost invariably
    willing to listen to reason and examples, and to critique examples.
    In this list there is a very strong ethic (for want of a word) for use
    cases as justification for "need".

    So in this instance I would expect you to start in the SketchUp group
    and find someone to help you write an API, even as a layer that calls
    the Ruby API.

    In c.l.p, I would think it reasonable to come here and say
    "I have this code [href to code, or inline small snippet reproducing the
    issue" and I can't find enough Python expertise in the SketchUp list to
    solve this problem".

    It is _not_ reasonable to expect non-SketchUp users to make you an API
    or to go to the SketchUp list to support you.

    Python advocacy seems to be by example, not cheerleading.

    | This brings me to a new question. How many really exceptional Python
    | programmers have been left out OR pushed out because of the extreme
    | narcissism of the "core" python group. And when i say "core" i am
    | speaking of the handful of people who hang out here discrediting and
    | mobbing anybody they see as a threat to their superiority. They clutch
    | to power like a hated dictator because that is all they have left.
    |
    | You people need to get a life, drop your narcissistic attitudes and be
    | more helpful, friendly, and welcoming to the wider world. This
    | community is not a community, its a "Cosa Nostra". Your predator like
    | behaviors are bleeding the spirit of Python's community. This
    | community does not belong to you or me or even GvR, we all share an
    | equal piece. And no matter how much, or little, each of use
    | contribute, we all share an equally divided peice.

    Bah.

    Your supposed "community" is a discussion place for people with Python
    interest. A co-operative anarchy, like a lot of things. It is not a
    club or other formal grouping.

    Aside from the core devs of the language implementors and the real
    maintainer of the various library packages, everyone else is here to
    have on-topic, usually technical, discussions about python. _Nobody_
    is under an obligation to assist. Complaining because others don't share
    your particular itch _will_ get you negative responses.

    | I have spoken with "other" Python programmers (far more advanced than
    | myself) who echo this sentiment. However unlike me they cannot afford
    | to sacrifice their image to this group, EVEN if the group is at fault!
    | However this behavior is causing Python to suffer from lack of diverse
    | developers, and shrinks the pool of those who wish to participate.
    |
    | But i'll tell you one thing, you will never bleed me dry because i am
    | stronger than all! I will be a thorn in your sides every time you pick
    | on a newbie. I will point out every negative comment you make, it will
    | not be hidden as you like.

    You don't need to need to hide; list members can killfile you as they
    see fit, and not be particularly bothered. Their choice:)

    | Whether i am accepted or assassinated i
    | will create an irreversible butterfly affect that no organization of
    | negativity can endure. I will bring some positive attitudes to this
    | group if it's the last thing i do! That will be my contribution to
    | this group, and it may just save the Python community as a whole!

    Hmm. Your efforts are misdirected. It would be better to devote your
    energies to implementing something useful, such as your API.

    Other list members surely have enough on their plates; I don't have enough
    time to work on my own stuff, and I don't even have a life! Nobody needs
    to do this stuff for you unless they personally want the same thing.

    Cheers,
    --
    Cameron Simpson <> DoD#743
    http://www.cskk.ezoshosting.com/cs/

    Weakness is a better teacher than strength. Weakness must learn to
    understand the obstacles that strength brushes aside. - Mason Cooley
    Cameron Simpson, Jun 13, 2010
    #4
  5. rantingrick

    Aahz Guest

    In article <>,
    rantingrick <> wrote:
    >
    >I will bring some positive attitudes to this group if it's the last
    >thing i do!


    "Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then
    shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."
    --
    Aahz () <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

    "If you don't know what your program is supposed to do, you'd better not
    start writing it." --Dijkstra
    Aahz, Jun 13, 2010
    #5
  6. I call bullshit.

    The Python community is vibrant, accessible, and willing to endure far
    more then anyone has any right to expect when people come to it for help.

    The community seems willing to explain fundamental concepts to newbies
    over, and over, and over again; to go out of their way, time and again,
    to spend countless man-hours showing newbies how to think in Python, how
    to be successful in Python, how to excel in Python.

    It does expect something from those coming to it for aide; it expects
    the seeker to disclose the problem in a complete, clear manner, with
    real code and errors, with clear questions; and then it goes out of its
    way to explain what all is going on, and how to approach the problem in
    a Pythonic way.

    And when the newbies fail to show even the vaguest level of
    due-diligence (let alone, ability to simply Google a problem), the
    community doesn't call them idiots, doesn't tell them to RTFM and GFYS,
    but explains again, how best to ask a question, what to include so that
    we can help you best, and then try to find a solution, even when the
    community is dubious of the intent of the asker.

    Why do people respond poorly to you?

    Because you don't just argue a point of view.

    You don't argue a position; you don't support it with facts, logic,
    reason. You start immediately into this emotional rhetoric,
    pseudo-inspirational nonsense which just comes off as inane. It's like a
    bad cross between a politician and an self-help speaker, and the crux of
    your arguments are focused on that emotional charge-- how TCL is impure,
    gross, and its inclusion makes us "less", makes us the mockery of the
    language world, how everyone loathes and detests it.

    None of that is true, on any factual level.

    Time and time again, you presume to speak for "us", for "we", and that's
    detestable.

    Meaning to or not, you come across as a troll, as if these emotional
    responses are your end and not your means.

    Make an argument. Support it with facts, leave out the rhetoric, make
    your case. This is a forum of engineers-- even if most of us aren't
    professional engineers, and many are just starting along the line of
    becoming engineers. But this is not a religious organization. This is
    not a political party. By and large, we don't mind if someone chooses
    another solution. (Yes, I'm speaking for "we" now, I know)

    Practicality beats purity.

    This is a fundamental concept, not only in Python, but in the community.
    The community is about solving problems. Not an agenda. There is no
    desire to win. There is no desire to be best. There is a desire for
    individuals to be empowered to succeed.

    --

    Stephen Hansen
    ... Also: Ixokai
    ... Mail: me+list/python (AT) ixokai (DOT) io
    ... Blog: http://meh.ixokai.io/


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    Stephen Hansen, Jun 13, 2010
    #6
  7. On 6/12/10 10:10 PM, Cameron Simpson wrote:
    > Python advocacy seems to be by example, not cheerleading.


    +1 QOTW

    --

    Stephen Hansen
    ... Also: Ixokai
    ... Mail: me+list/python (AT) ixokai (DOT) io
    ... Blog: http://meh.ixokai.io/


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    Stephen Hansen, Jun 13, 2010
    #7
  8. <snip all>
    At first I wanted to response in the style of 'karma is a bitch' or
    'what goes around comes around' but then I considered that won't be
    helping much, so I only did at first in a meta sort of way, sorry for that.
    The thing is that sometimes for no good or appealing reasons, which I
    personally think in this case isn't so, the whole world is against you.

    So I would propose that, instead of beating up a dead horse (I try to
    write from your point of view) you fork the project, call it Rython (or
    whatever you fancy) and create the community you want by patching up the
    language to your standards.

    I promise if there is something where I am competent enough I will
    seriously consider contributing.

    --
    mph
    Martin P. Hellwig, Jun 13, 2010
    #8
  9. Re: Community (*sigh*)

    You want to contribute to the stdlib? No problem, it's easy! I did so
    recently. You file an issue on the python.org bug tracker, describing
    the problem, and attach a patch that fixes it. A nice developer with
    commit rights will be with you shortly. The guy that committed my tiny
    little patch the other day was even kind enough to add me to the authors
    (or was it acknowledgements? I forget.) file.

    Oh, you want to contribute a new package/module? Then write it, and post
    it to the cheese shop! If it's any good, people may want to help you
    build upon the foundation you laid. If it's really, really good, and
    universally useful, it might actually end up in the stdlib. For example,
    the standard unittest module which we all know and love was an
    independent package once upon a time!

    Also, I'm sick of reading "a modest proposal" in hundreds of subject lines.

    -- Thomas


    On 06/13/2010 05:09 AM, rantingrick wrote:
    >
    > -------------------------
    > Where is the community?
    > -------------------------
    >
    > I think the Python community is broken. I think we don't really "have"
    > a community. It's more like a handful of negitive people at the top
    > and every one else is chopped liver.
    >
    > Just today i saw another chance to contribute code to Python's stdlib,
    > but then that nagging feeling of "Whats the use, these people are just
    > going to discredit you and never accept code from you just because
    > they hate you". Sadly though the only damage is done to Python.
    >
    > For those who are not aware my very first post to c.l.p (and Usenet)
    > was about 1.5 years ago. At that time i saw a void that Python could
    > fill nicely as a simple scripting language for an very quickly
    > advancing 3D modeling application (Google SketchUp). (You can search
    > the archives for a thread called..."Help, Google SketchUp needs a
    > Python API" if you are interested.)
    >
    > So i my first thought was to find out if anyone was interested in
    > starting this project up. So i posted my ideas and to my complete and
    > utter surprise i was lynched by the Python community as a heretic...."
    > How dare you ask other people to help do what you should be doing
    > yourself "... well that was the "Sunday school" version of the
    > responses i received. I was discredited and mobbed for no apparent
    > reason except that i had the balls to ask the question in the first
    > place. I was only looking to get feedback, but the endless hoards
    > insisted that "they" new my intentions better than *I*.
    >
    > Why was the reaction so negative? Well i will admit some fault in the
    > fact that i trashed Ruby pretty bad. I felt everything i said was true
    > IMO then as is now (mostly). People should have a right to opinions.
    > However since i was such an "unknown" and you could say a "newbie",
    > was this reaction warranted? I think not, and it speaks volumes to the
    > negative attitudes within this community.
    >
    > This brings me to a new question. How many really exceptional Python
    > programmers have been left out OR pushed out because of the extreme
    > narcissism of the "core" python group. And when i say "core" i am
    > speaking of the handful of people who hang out here discrediting and
    > mobbing anybody they see as a threat to their superiority. They clutch
    > to power like a hated dictator because that is all they have left.
    >
    > You people need to get a life, drop your narcissistic attitudes and be
    > more helpful, friendly, and welcoming to the wider world. This
    > community is not a community, its a "Cosa Nostra". Your predator like
    > behaviors are bleeding the spirit of Python's community. This
    > community does not belong to you or me or even GvR, we all share an
    > equal piece. And no matter how much, or little, each of use
    > contribute, we all share an equally divided peice.
    >
    > I have spoken with "other" Python programmers (far more advanced than
    > myself) who echo this sentiment. However unlike me they cannot afford
    > to sacrifice their image to this group, EVEN if the group is at fault!
    > However this behavior is causing Python to suffer from lack of diverse
    > developers, and shrinks the pool of those who wish to participate.
    >
    > But i'll tell you one thing, you will never bleed me dry because i am
    > stronger than all! I will be a thorn in your sides every time you pick
    > on a newbie. I will point out every negative comment you make, it will
    > not be hidden as you like. Whether i am accepted or assassinated i
    > will create an irreversible butterfly affect that no organization of
    > negativity can endure. I will bring some positive attitudes to this
    > group if it's the last thing i do! That will be my contribution to
    > this group, and it may just save the Python community as a whole!
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    Thomas Jollans, Jun 13, 2010
    #9
  10. rantingrick

    John Bokma Guest

    Re: Community (*sigh*)

    Thomas Jollans <> writes:

    > Also, I'm sick of reading "a modest proposal" in hundreds of subject lines.


    OK, how about a modest proposal in the body? Please do not top post. Or
    at least don't quote a very, very long article. Thank you.

    --
    John Bokma j3b

    Hacking & Hiking in Mexico - http://johnbokma.com/
    http://castleamber.com/ - Perl & Python Development
    John Bokma, Jun 13, 2010
    #10
  11. rantingrick

    rantingrick Guest

    On Jun 13, 5:04 am, "Martin P. Hellwig" <>
    wrote:

    > So I would propose that, instead of beating up a dead horse (I try to
    > write from your point of view) you fork the project, call it Rython (or
    > whatever you fancy) and create the community you want by patching up the
    > language to your standards.


    I have considered this although i dared not say it on the list until
    all diplomatic means have failed, and it seems that we have reached
    that point. Also i do not think splitting the community was a good
    idea. However, if the ivory towers continue to pretend that the rest
    of the Python community does not exist well then they will force my
    hand, and i will start a fork. Then we will have a sort of ironic
    situation... the very people who rail *against* me (and others) would
    actually be working *for* me unwillingly but without recourse. he-he
    Yes, as you've said "karma *is* a bitch" ;-)

    > I promise if there is something where I am competent enough I will
    > seriously consider contributing.


    That is a wonderful response Martin thank you. I don't know if you are
    serious, but a wonderful response nonetheless!
    rantingrick, Jun 13, 2010
    #11
  12. rantingrick

    rantingrick Guest

    On Jun 13, 1:50 am, Stephen Hansen <me+list/> wrote:

    > You don't argue a position; you don't support it with facts, logic,
    > reason. You start immediately into this emotional rhetoric,
    > pseudo-inspirational nonsense which just comes off as inane. It's like a
    > bad cross between a politician and an self-help speaker, and the crux of
    > your arguments are focused on that emotional charge-- how TCL is impure,
    > gross, and its inclusion makes us "less", makes us the mockery of the
    > language world, how everyone loathes and detests it.


    Could it be that *you* are taking my opinions and suggestions too
    emotionality?

    > Meaning to or not, you come across as a troll, as if these emotional
    > responses are your end and not your means.


    My *ends* are to move Python forward. No i do not i have all the
    answers however i can look at what i do see and ask the hard
    questions. Then i would like to get some "thoughtful" answers.

    Instead of just simply barking down orders from the top we need to
    have useful discussion on the many topics that concern Python. And not
    just the "core" developers or the "core" protagonist on this list
    should be involved in this discussion. Everyone needs to have a chance
    to speak.

    My are arguments for Tkinter/Tcl/Tk are all true. However it should be
    a community decision (not my sole decision or yours!) as to whether
    Tkinter stays or not. As i have said before i *do* actually use
    Tkinter quite a lot (along with other libraries). But we must make a
    choice, Keep Tkinter and improve it, or dump Tkinter and consider
    something that will scale better for the future. I AM HAPPY EITHER
    WAY!

    I have documented time and again the poor state of IDLE. The only
    responses i ever get are...

    "Nobody uses IDLE"
    "Only a dumbass would use IDLE"
    "I have never used IDLE but i *know* nothing is wrong with it"

    .... and all these arguments are BS! It's just more argumentative
    hyperbole that keeps these and many other modules in static
    development. I am also committing to contributing code myself *if* it
    will be seriously considered on the *value* of the code and NOT *who*
    it originated from. But i digress...
    rantingrick, Jun 13, 2010
    #12
  13. rantingrick

    Zeth Guest

    On Jun 13, 4:09 am, rantingrick <> wrote:
    >  Where is the community?


    In Birmingham from 17th to 22nd of July:
    http://www.europython.eu/talks/timetable/

    (Couldn't resist - one good troll deserves another)
    Zeth, Jun 13, 2010
    #13
  14. rantingrick

    Aahz Guest

    In article <>,
    Zeth <> wrote:
    >On Jun 13, 4:09=A0am, rantingrick <> wrote:
    >>
    >> Where is the community?

    >
    >In Birmingham from 17th to 22nd of July:
    >http://www.europython.eu/talks/timetable/
    >
    >(Couldn't resist - one good troll deserves another)


    That's not a troll, that's publicity! And a nice subversion of the
    troll.
    --
    Aahz () <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

    "If you don't know what your program is supposed to do, you'd better not
    start writing it." --Dijkstra
    Aahz, Jun 13, 2010
    #14
  15. rantingrick

    Terry Reedy Guest

    Re: Community (*sigh*)

    On 6/13/2010 7:40 AM, Thomas Jollans wrote:
    > You want to contribute to the stdlib? No problem, it's easy! I did so
    > recently. You file an issue on the python.org bug tracker, describing
    > the problem, and attach a patch that fixes it. A nice developer with
    > commit rights will be with you shortly.


    That is more true now than is used to be. Last week while reviewing
    older issues tagged with 2.5, I found
    http://bugs.python.org/issue3129
    a bug report with patch with no comments for two years. I verified that
    the problem still existed in 3.1, read the patch, suggested application,
    and now the fix has been applied to 3.2.

    Three points here:
    1. even if an issue does not get immediae attention, someone will see it
    eventually.
    2. people are needed to make it sooner than later.
    3. almost anyone reading this could have typed 'import struct' and
    pasted in the two examples, like I did, and report the result. People
    who cannot change the header fields as I did can request assistence on
    #python chat channed or post change suggestions here or email someone
    like me or just suggest changes in the issue message, which will very
    likely get seen by someone who can respond.

    Terry Jan Reedy
    Terry Reedy, Jun 13, 2010
    #15
  16. On 6/13/10 9:14 AM, rantingrick wrote:
    > On Jun 13, 1:50 am, Stephen Hansen <me+list/> wrote:
    >
    >> You don't argue a position; you don't support it with facts, logic,
    >> reason. You start immediately into this emotional rhetoric,
    >> pseudo-inspirational nonsense which just comes off as inane. It's like a
    >> bad cross between a politician and an self-help speaker, and the crux of
    >> your arguments are focused on that emotional charge-- how TCL is impure,
    >> gross, and its inclusion makes us "less", makes us the mockery of the
    >> language world, how everyone loathes and detests it.

    >
    > Could it be that *you* are taking my opinions and suggestions too
    > emotionality?


    No. Your emotional impact on me has been zero.

    However, all you do is spew emotionally charged rhetoric. It doesn't
    actually *work*, you don't fire me up, inspire me, convince me that
    you've somehow made a point and said something of substance, as I can
    recognize you have not. You start from a certain point you want to make,
    and instead of making it with an actual argument, you start spewing
    emotionally-charged nonsense. This is what politicians do to try to get
    around not saying anything of substance or supporting their positions.
    They're just better at it.

    Do you want quotes? Okay!

    --

    You: "Insane asylums are filled to the rafters with these people. They walk
    around with tin foil wrapped around their heads supposedly because
    cell phone towers are "really" mind control devices. Well at least
    thats their side of the story ;-). You can also compare this attitude
    to a heart transplant recipient who says he doesn't want the heart if
    it came from a black, brown, or yellow person. In that case the hatred
    is race based but it is exactly the same thing as we have here. Hate
    is hate no matter what "form" it takes or "excuse" it makes."

    Translation: "I make the vague allusion of an insane asylum, then
    include blatant bigotry and ignorance, and make sure to bring up the
    'hatred' card and therefore through these utterly irrelevant additions,
    I have discredited the opposition and I am therefore right."

    --

    You: "These people are the ones who cannot change with the times. You know
    what they say. """ Change with the times or get left behind""". They
    would rather hack together a curses front-end than to drop into a GUI,
    yes really. You old timers need to get with the program, GUI is here
    to stay until wet-ware interfaces take over. So drag yourself into the
    21st century (kicking and screaming if necessary)"

    Translation: "I realize there is a significant subset of the community
    who believe that GUI's should not be included in the stdlib, and they
    have made coherent arguments as to why: since I can not refute them
    directly, I shall write them into the position of being an anachronism,
    a thing of the past to be moved on from and pitied. Even though they
    have not lobbied for a great Return to the Console and abandonment of
    the mouse, I shall imply that they have so you can discredit their
    opinions as mere fringe fanaticism."

    --

    You: "Oh Please lets not help user in the age of
    "take-over-my-puter--all-my-
    data, and-my-freedoms, and-then-force-me-to-be-a-slave-to-you-just-so-
    i-can-use-my-data, with-your-permission, master!" era. Yes i have seen
    these GUI, HTML, CSS, Javascript freaks of nature and lament them
    daily! What a nightmare! Give me a good ole GUI and get the hell outta
    my way!"

    Translation: "The reality that more then one modern GUI(both QT and the
    latest from Microsoft come to mind) systems have incorporated technology
    that originated on the web into their application-based user interface
    systems (not to be confused with a web user interface) is not lost on
    me, but for whatever reason I just object in principle. So, instead of
    arguing against such technologies on their merit, I shall distract the
    entire point into the realm of hype and web-based applications, and
    remind people of the dangers of giving our data over to The Cloud, and
    that the Web 2.0 is all about taking control away you."

    --

    You: "But we sure don't need an embedded TCL interpretor packaged
    with Python either *YUCK*!!!"

    Translation: "Even though I have absolutely no idea what technological
    problems having TCL bundled with Python presents, I'm going to appeal to
    your inner purist and fanatic, and say: If its not in Python, its
    rubbish! Just cuz."

    --

    You: "psst, hey Guido, it's time to make your triumphant comeback to
    c.l.p. We are waiting..."

    Translation: "As part of my ongoing passive-aggressive Tea Party-like
    anger towards the Establishment over on python-dev, I shall repeatedly
    make references to the abandonment of The Community by Those in Power
    (and Guido in particular), and through this shall continue to try to
    inspire you my fellow brothers to rise up and take Python back! All the
    while attempting to appear to be at least a member of the loyal opposition."

    --

    You: "... well just keep your negativity to yourself. When you have real
    solutions or real ideas that could foster real solutions then for
    Pete's sake bring them forth and let them be weighed in the balances
    of truth. But i can tell you right now, everyone will have to
    sacrifice something to get the perfect GUI for Python. Yes you heard
    me correctly, the perfect GUI for Python! Not the perfect GUI for you,
    me, or even xah lee!"

    Translation: "Although your challenge of my idea or position was purely
    technical and fact-based, I will dismiss it as 'negativity' and declare
    that you are one of those moochers who don't ever actually contribute,
    that way your opinion won't actually mean anything when compared to mine."

    I could go on all day. You do it ALL THE TIME. Not only on this thread.

    Its tiresome.

    > Instead of just simply barking down orders from the top we need to
    > have useful discussion on the many topics that concern Python. And not
    > just the "core" developers or the "core" protagonist on this list
    > should be involved in this discussion. Everyone needs to have a chance
    > to speak.


    As I said before: The Python community is far, far, far larger then this
    mailing list. It has broad and diverse interests.

    > My are arguments for Tkinter/Tcl/Tk are all true. However it should be
    > a community decision (not my sole decision or yours!) as to whether
    > Tkinter stays or not.


    Actually, it is not a community decision.

    It is, according to every policy that I'm aware of, pretty much set in
    stone that Tkinter stays.

    The only way in which it can be removed (or, really, significantly
    changed in a backwards-incompatible way) would be for you to write a
    PEP, have it fully fleshed out with both pro and con arguments, and try
    to build a community consensus around the issue, one way or the other.

    If you fail to get a consensus, the status quo almost certainly stands
    (though the BDFL can step in and rule one way or the other: he tends to
    be pretty conservative on these things unless there's something new made
    possible and elegant)

    If you succeed to get a consensus, then it probably goes through another
    round of debate on python-dev, and then Guido (or, sometimes, a delegate
    he appoints) decides one way or the other, taking the 'consensus' under
    advisement.

    At least, this seems to be how such works out from my outsider's
    perspective of watching the threads go along.

    > As i have said before i *do* actually use
    > Tkinter quite a lot (along with other libraries). But we must make a
    > choice, Keep Tkinter and improve it, or dump Tkinter and consider
    > something that will scale better for the future. I AM HAPPY EITHER
    > WAY!


    There is a third choice: The status quo is satisfactory.

    --

    Stephen Hansen
    ... Also: Ixokai
    ... Mail: me+list/python (AT) ixokai (DOT) io
    ... Blog: http://meh.ixokai.io/


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    Stephen Hansen, Jun 13, 2010
    #16
  17. On 6/13/10 8:42 AM, rantingrick wrote:
    > However, if the ivory towers continue to pretend that the rest
    > of the Python community does not exist well then they will force my
    > hand, and i will start a fork. Then we will have a sort of ironic
    > situation... the very people who rail *against* me (and others) would
    > actually be working *for* me unwillingly but without recourse. he-he
    > Yes, as you've said "karma *is* a bitch" ;-)


    There is nothing ironic about it.

    They will not be working for you; and they will not actually care in the
    least that you have forked the code. They will not mind. They will not
    be hurt, hampered, threatened, or in any way inconvenienced. They will
    continue to do what they always have done. Volunteer to a project that
    they care about.

    The terms of that volunteer donation is that the work is open source;
    not just open source, but open source with a very liberal license, that
    says anyone can do basically anything they want. Including package it up
    in a commercial application and make millions without ever giving
    anything back, if one so chooses.

    They know the license. They are fully aware of the terms by which they
    do their volunteer work. They don't care what you do with it.

    Its yours to use as you please.

    Welcome to Open Source (not to be confused with Free Software, where
    they don't care what you *do* with it, but do care that if you share it,
    you share it on their terms-- note this statement is intended to be
    taken as a neutral statement and not a condemnation of one over the other).

    --

    Stephen Hansen
    ... Also: Ixokai
    ... Mail: me+list/python (AT) ixokai (DOT) io
    ... Blog: http://meh.ixokai.io/


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    Stephen Hansen, Jun 13, 2010
    #17
  18. rantingrick

    Terry Reedy Guest

    On 6/13/2010 12:14 PM, rantingrick wrote:

    > I have documented time and again the poor state of IDLE. The only
    > responses i ever get are...
    >
    > "Nobody uses IDLE"
    > "Only a dumbass would use IDLE"
    > "I have never used IDLE but i *know* nothing is wrong with it"


    Perhaps you are listening selectively. I have said more than once on
    this list that I use IDLE, I like using it, it works for me, AND I would
    like it improved. When a student proposed that as part of a Google
    Summer of Code project, I (and others) encouraged him to go ahead, which
    he did. Any concrete effort you make to improve IDLE would be
    appreciated by me. There are issues on the tracker already.

    Terry Jan Reedy
    Terry Reedy, Jun 13, 2010
    #18
  19. On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 08:42:57 -0700, rantingrick wrote:

    > i will start a fork.


    That is the most sensible thing you have said yet. Please do so, it will
    be a great thing for the Python community.


    --
    Steven
    Steven D'Aprano, Jun 13, 2010
    #19
  20. Here's the thing. Python has one of the nicest communities of most
    software projects (except maybe ubuntu), try Perl or C. Unless you
    completely know what you're talking about, have spent atleast 1/2 an
    hour researching your problem, those guys will refrain from helping.

    On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 1:45 PM, Terry Reedy <> wrote:
    > On 6/13/2010 12:14 PM, rantingrick wrote:
    >
    >> I have documented time and again the poor state of IDLE. The only
    >> responses i ever get are...
    >>
    >>  "Nobody uses IDLE"
    >>  "Only a dumbass would use IDLE"
    >>  "I have never used IDLE but i *know* nothing is wrong with it"

    >
    > Perhaps you are listening selectively. I have said more than once on this
    > list that I use IDLE, I like using it, it works for me, AND I would like it
    > improved. When a student proposed that as part of a Google Summer of Code
    > project, I (and others) encouraged him to go ahead, which he did. Any
    > concrete effort you make to improve IDLE would be appreciated by me. There
    > are issues on the tracker already.
    >
    > Terry Jan Reedy
    >
    > --
    > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
    >
    Someone Something, Jun 13, 2010
    #20
    1. Advertising

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