Distributing Java Source

Discussion in 'Java' started by Roedy Green, Jul 23, 2008.

  1. Roedy Green

    Roedy Green Guest

    1. is there any format considered more vanilla than ZIP for
    distributing Java source?

    2. If you distribute source via a Version control system, which is the
    preferred one for Java multiplatform?

    3. Is there a place where I can post my source in a vcs for free or
    cheaply? SourceForge turned me down because of my "non-miltary use"
    restriction. My ISP is always too busy to do the work to let me set
    up my own server.


    --

    Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
    The Java Glossary
    http://mindprod.com
     
    Roedy Green, Jul 23, 2008
    #1
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  2. Roedy Green, 23.07.2008 14:21:
    > 1. is there any format considered more vanilla than ZIP for
    > distributing Java source?


    JAR file?

    Although that is essentially the same as a ZIP file, it is "built into" Java.

    So you can be sure that anyone who has the JDK installed (otherwise he/she wouldn't be interested in the sources, right?) can un-jar it, even if no "ZIP utilitiy" is installed on that system

    Thomas
     
    Thomas Kellerer, Jul 23, 2008
    #2
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  3. Roedy Green

    Tom Anderson Guest

    On Wed, 23 Jul 2008, Roedy Green wrote:

    > 1. is there any format considered more vanilla than ZIP for distributing
    > Java source?


    Not that i'm aware of. I might be tempted to use a JAR, so i could
    indicate version numbers and other things in the manifest, but that's not
    a huge advantage.

    > 2. If you distribute source via a Version control system, which is the
    > preferred one for Java multiplatform?


    For distribution, it's hard to beat CVS, since there are clients for every
    platform under the sun, including plugins for IDEs, virtual filesystems,
    etc, and it's very well-understood, and a well-established standard.
    Subversion is a 'better CVS', but it doesn't yet have as wide support, i'd
    say. The more radical changeset-oriented systems, like git, are only
    really necessary if you're doing distributed, anarchic development, which
    i think you aren't (since your development isn't distributed - i make no
    comment as to its anarchicity!).

    > 3. Is there a place where I can post my source in a vcs for free or
    > cheaply? SourceForge turned me down because of my "non-miltary use"
    > restriction. My ISP is always too busy to do the work to let me set up
    > my own server.


    I can't think of any off the top of my head that will let you use an
    arbitrary license, as you would need to impose your non-military
    restriction. You could work your way through this list and see if any
    will, though:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_open_source_software_hosting_facilities

    tom

    --
    We can only see a short distance ahead, but we can see plenty there that
    needs to be done. -- Alan Turing
     
    Tom Anderson, Jul 23, 2008
    #3
  4. Roedy Green

    David Segall Guest

    Roedy Green <> wrote:

    > Is there a place where I can post my source in a vcs for free or
    >cheaply?

    Try http://www.cheap-jsp-hosting.com/. Dave Miller
    <> seems keen to cooperate with
    active Java programmers and, I believe, recently gave some space to
    Andrew Thompson <http://pscode.org/>. My only contact with them was an
    enquiry about an addition to their supplied JVM. The reply was prompt
    and offered a risk free (for me) solution.
    > My ISP is always too busy to do the work to let me set
    >up my own server.

    I don't understand this bit. Unless your ISP is the host what have
    they got to do with setting up your own server? On the other hand, if
    they are willing to provide a free host, then I would keep nagging.
     
    David Segall, Jul 23, 2008
    #4
  5. Roedy Green

    Roedy Green Guest

    On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:21:18 GMT, Roedy Green
    <> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
    someone who said :

    >1. is there any format considered more vanilla than ZIP for
    >distributing Java source?
    >
    >2. If you distribute source via a Version control system, which is the
    >preferred one for Java multiplatform?
    >
    >3. Is there a place where I can post my source in a vcs for free or
    >cheaply? SourceForge turned me down because of my "non-miltary use"
    >restriction. My ISP is always too busy to do the work to let me set
    >up my own server.


    I have summarised your collective wisdom at
    http://mindprod.com/jgloss/distributingsource.html
    --

    Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
    The Java Glossary
    http://mindprod.com
     
    Roedy Green, Jul 23, 2008
    #5
  6. Roedy Green

    Dave Miller Guest

    Daniel Dyer wrote:
    > On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 15:15:35 +0100, David Segall <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >> Roedy Green <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> Is there a place where I can post my source in a vcs for free or
    >>> cheaply?

    >> Try http://www.cheap-jsp-hosting.com/. Dave Miller
    >> <> seems keen to cooperate with
    >> active Java programmers and, I believe, recently gave some space to
    >> Andrew Thompson <http://pscode.org/>. My only contact with them was an
    >> enquiry about an addition to their supplied JVM. The reply was prompt
    >> and offered a risk free (for me) solution.
    >>> My ISP is always too busy to do the work to let me set
    >>> up my own server.

    >> I don't understand this bit. Unless your ISP is the host what have
    >> they got to do with setting up your own server? On the other hand, if
    >> they are willing to provide a free host, then I would keep nagging.

    >
    > Another option is to pay for a VPS (Virtual Private Server). It's just
    > like having your own dedicated machine but cheaper (you get a choice of
    > OS, full root access, install whatever software you like and reboot
    > whenever you feel like it). I use SliceHost and I'm very happy with
    > their service. On a 256Mb slice I run Apache, Jetty and MySQL with no
    > problems. VPSLink is an alternative provider that has lower spec slices
    > available (from $7 a month), but I can't vouch for their service having
    > never used it myself.
    >
    > SliceHost: https://manage.slicehost.com/customers/new?referrer=456685539
    > (this is a referral link)
    > VPSLink: http://vpslink.com/vps-hosting/
    >
    > Dan.
    >

    VPS used to be a midpoint between a managed environment and a full
    dedicated server. Rather than a full dedicated at $100, you could buy a
    quarter of a dedicated VPS at $40. That was then.

    Now, in order to compete on price, some VPS providers are cutting
    servers into extremely small pieces. When Dan buys a 256MB virtual
    server he is buying, in essence, a computer with 256MB of total RAM. In
    that there is no GUI to suck up power, that can work (as Dan attests).
    When other vendors try to cut that down further (a 64MB computer?)
    they're either trying to kid the customers or they're kidding themselves.

    It comes down to how much you want to be involved in customizing the
    server and maintaining it. MB for MB managed hosting is cheaper than VPS
    and removes the need to do maintenance, security updates, etc. VPS gives
    you a totally customized experience as a practicing server admin.

    --
    Dave Miller
    Java Web Hosting at:
    http://www.cheap-jsp-hosting.com/
     
    Dave Miller, Jul 23, 2008
    #6
  7. Roedy Green

    thufir Guest

    On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:21:18 +0000, Roedy Green wrote:

    > 1. is there any format considered more vanilla than ZIP for distributing
    > Java source?
    >
    > 2. If you distribute source via a Version control system, which is the
    > preferred one for Java multiplatform?
    >
    > 3. Is there a place where I can post my source in a vcs for free or
    > cheaply? SourceForge turned me down because of my "non-miltary use"
    > restriction. My ISP is always too busy to do the work to let me set up
    > my own server.
    >



    I like code.google.com, which is free, which uses subversion (similar to
    cvs), but git seems popular (I don't know any git websites). Dunno about
    the licensing, with google you have to select from a preset list. If the
    license you want isn't there, then you can always request that from
    google -- they seem pretty responsive and have a google group for
    code.google.com stuff.

    How much code do you have that it must be compressed? When you checkout
    code from subversion there's no compression. If you're compressing, that
    sounds like an opportunity for file corruption.



    -Thufir
     
    thufir, Jul 23, 2008
    #7
  8. Roedy Green

    thufir Guest

    On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 14:36:30 +0200, Thomas Kellerer wrote:

    > JAR file?
    >
    > Although that is essentially the same as a ZIP file, it is "built into"
    > Java.



    On that note, you can include the src directory when the jar is built, so
    that, yes, the jar runs the app, but source can be extracted. ?


    -Thufir
     
    thufir, Jul 23, 2008
    #8
  9. Roedy Green

    Tom Anderson Guest

    On Wed, 23 Jul 2008, thufir wrote:

    > On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:21:18 +0000, Roedy Green wrote:
    >
    >> 1. is there any format considered more vanilla than ZIP for distributing
    >> Java source?

    >
    > How much code do you have that it must be compressed?


    I think the desire to use an archive file is more about having one single
    file to distribute than about reducing size. Even then, reducing size is
    useful - it might not make much difference to the downloader, but a 60%
    reduction in file size also means a 60% reduction in Roedy's bandwidth
    use, which could save him some dollars. And that's Canadian dollars, which
    are really worth something!

    > When you checkout code from subversion there's no compression. If
    > you're compressing, that sounds like an opportunity for file corruption.


    Oh really. And you've had that happen to you, have you?

    A compressed file has better protection against external corruption than
    an uncompressed one - there are fewer bits to be hit by cosmic rays or
    other random processes, and all archive formats worth bothering with
    include checksums, which will detect many kinds of corruption. An
    increased chance of corruption could only come from a defective
    implementation of the compressor or decompressor, and the simple fact is
    that there aren't many such implementations in use in the wild.

    tom

    --
    Is that dark pixel a prox mine or a bullet hole? HERE COME THE PROX MINE
    SWEATS! -- D
     
    Tom Anderson, Jul 23, 2008
    #9
  10. Roedy Green

    Roedy Green Guest

    On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 14:15:35 GMT, David Segall <>
    wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :

    >I don't understand this bit. Unless your ISP is the host what have
    >they got to do with setting up your own server? On the other hand, if
    >they are willing to provide a free host, then I would keep nagging.


    At this point I have only static html serving, offered free. For me
    to have the ability to set up my own code he has to do various changes
    to ensure I don't screw up other clients.
    --

    Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
    The Java Glossary
    http://mindprod.com
     
    Roedy Green, Jul 23, 2008
    #10
  11. Roedy Green

    Roedy Green Guest

    On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:01:47 GMT, thufir <>
    wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :

    >I like code.google.com, which is free, which uses subversion


    isn't that just for google widgets?
    --

    Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
    The Java Glossary
    http://mindprod.com
     
    Roedy Green, Jul 23, 2008
    #11
  12. Roedy Green

    Roedy Green Guest

    On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:01:47 GMT, thufir <>
    wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :

    >How much code do you have that it must be compressed? When you checkout
    >code from subversion there's no compression. If you're compressing, that
    >sounds like an opportunity for file corruption.


    My source code is perfectly ordinary and not that big, under 25 MB, no
    compression. Then there are the docs, scripts, class files, jars etc.
    Zipped it is about 65 MB.

    The website is about 700 MB of HTML, images, zips etc. That is what I
    was thinking about gzipping to improve response.

    --

    Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
    The Java Glossary
    http://mindprod.com
     
    Roedy Green, Jul 23, 2008
    #12
  13. Roedy Green

    Roedy Green Guest

    On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 18:51:49 +0100, Tom Anderson
    <> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who
    said :

    >I think the desire to use an archive file is more about having one single
    >file to distribute than about reducing size. Even then, reducing size is
    >useful - it might not make much difference to the downloader, but a 60%
    >reduction in file size also means a 60% reduction in Roedy's bandwidth
    >use, which could save him some dollars. And that's Canadian dollars, which
    >are really worth something!


    The desire to serve via a VCS system is primarily to comply with a
    request from JetBrains intellij IDEA, my IDE. They want me to do that
    as a condition for getting a free copy of the IDE.

    It it also might encourage interest in my code, making it more
    "serious" and getting free publicity from the hosting VCS.

    Anyone trying to stay on top of my many micro changes could do it more
    efficiently than by downloading entire ZIPs each time. It also makes
    it clearer to them just what I changed.

    --

    Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
    The Java Glossary
    http://mindprod.com
     
    Roedy Green, Jul 23, 2008
    #13
  14. Roedy Green

    Roedy Green Guest

    On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 18:51:49 +0100, Tom Anderson
    <> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who
    said :

    >Oh really. And you've had that happen to you, have you?
    >
    >A compressed file has better protection against external corruption than
    >an uncompressed one - there are fewer bits to be hit by cosmic rays or
    >other random processes, and all archive formats worth bothering with
    >include checksums, which will detect many kinds of corruption. An
    >increased chance of corruption could only come from a defective
    >implementation of the compressor or decompressor, and the simple fact is
    >that there aren't many such implementations in use in the wild.


    The other nice feature of compression is it comes with an extra layer
    of checksum. If something does go wrong with the transmission
    (usually the tail end chopped off) you will soon find out.

    The protocols that version control systems use can be quite clever for
    syncing two copies of a program to detect deltas, or to update a
    version. They don't have to send the entire thing either way. It
    would make sense for them to compress that delta protocol as well. I
    don't know exactly what they do, however.

    That fact that it is not common knowledge how the protocols work is a
    good sign. People only tend to know about stuff that DOESN'T work
    properly.

    --

    Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
    The Java Glossary
    http://mindprod.com
     
    Roedy Green, Jul 23, 2008
    #14
  15. Roedy Green

    Jason Cavett Guest

    On Jul 23, 8:38 am, Tom Anderson <> wrote:
    > On Wed, 23 Jul 2008, Roedy Green wrote:
    > > 1. is there any format considered more vanilla than ZIP for distributing
    > > Java source?

    >
    > Not that i'm aware of. I might be tempted to use a JAR, so i could
    > indicate version numbers and other things in the manifest, but that's not
    > a huge advantage.
    >
    > > 2. If you distribute source via a Version control system, which is the
    > > preferred one for Java multiplatform?

    >
    > For distribution, it's hard to beat CVS, since there are clients for every
    > platform under the sun, including plugins for IDEs, virtual filesystems,
    > etc, and it's very well-understood, and a well-established standard.
    > Subversion is a 'better CVS', but it doesn't yet have as wide support, i'd
    > say. The more radical changeset-oriented systems, like git, are only
    > really necessary if you're doing distributed, anarchic development, which
    > i think you aren't (since your development isn't distributed - i make no
    > comment as to its anarchicity!).
    >
    > > 3. Is there a place where I can post my source in a vcs for free or
    > > cheaply?  SourceForge turned me down because of my "non-miltary use"
    > > restriction.  My ISP is always too busy to do the work to let me set up
    > > my own server.

    >
    > I can't think of any off the top of my head that will let you use an
    > arbitrary license, as you would need to impose your non-military
    > restriction. You could work your way through this list and see if any
    > will, though:
    >
    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_open_source_software_hosti...
    >
    > tom
    >
    > --
    > We can only see a short distance ahead, but we can see plenty there that
    > needs to be done. -- Alan Turing


    Or Subversion (SVN). CVS-like, but a lot nicer/better features.
     
    Jason Cavett, Jul 23, 2008
    #15
  16. Roedy Green

    Arne Vajhøj Guest

    Roedy Green wrote:
    > 1. is there any format considered more vanilla than ZIP for
    > distributing Java source?


    No.

    foobar-n.m-bin.zip for just want to run it people
    foobar-n.m-src.zip for build yourself people
    source control for contributors

    > 2. If you distribute source via a Version control system, which is the
    > preferred one for Java multiplatform?


    CVS or SVN

    There is a move from CVS to SVN, but I believe there are still a better
    chance than people has CVS support already.

    Arne
     
    Arne Vajhøj, Jul 24, 2008
    #16
  17. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    Lew schreef:
    | Jason Cavett wrote:
    |> Or Subversion (SVN). CVS-like, but a lot nicer/better features.
    |
    | Not a lot nice, and not all the features are better, and does it really
    | do everything that CVS does?

    Not being an expert in the matter, I’d have to not agree with you. Svn
    is *designed* to be a successor and enhancement to cvs. Atomic commits,
    a lot of functions that to not need a server connection which do in cvs
    etc. And you can be sure that it does most of what cvs does. Although
    it is not a 1-1 replacement, the commands are different, of course.

    And then, there is cvs2svn and svnview (makes repository available for
    browsing).

    H.
    - --
    Hendrik Maryns
    http://tcl.sfs.uni-tuebingen.de/~hendrik/
    ==================
    http://aouw.org
    Ask smart questions, get good answers:
    http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
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    Hendrik Maryns, Jul 24, 2008
    #17
  18. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    Lew schreef:
    | Daniel Dyer wrote:
    |> That may have been the case a few years ago, but I don't think it is
    |> now. I'd say that Subversion is at least as widely supported as CVS.
    |
    | Call me Luddite, but I don't get it. CVS works great, and I've taken
    | the time to learn some of its cooler features, and I don't like all the
    | "improvements" in Subversion. Some, sure, but not all, and not enough
    | to justify the learning curve. So far.

    Ok, this is getting OT, but could you elaborate on that? I use both,
    svn for my own projects and cvs for other projects I contribute to, and
    I have to say svn suits me better most of the time. Though I have to
    admit that cvs is also still developing and getting better.

    H.
    - --
    Hendrik Maryns
    http://tcl.sfs.uni-tuebingen.de/~hendrik/
    ==================
    http://aouw.org
    Ask smart questions, get good answers:
    http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
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    Hendrik Maryns, Jul 24, 2008
    #18
  19. Roedy Green

    Roedy Green Guest

    On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 16:24:09 +0100, "Daniel Dyer" <"You don't need
    it"> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :

    >Atomic commits are a big plus, IMO.


    Subversion versions not only file contents and file existence, but
    also directories, copies, and renames. This means you can delete and
    restore directories. You don’t have to keep dead empty directories
    around forever as in CVS. It also means that Subversion keeps track of
    the history of the renaming of a file. In CVS renaming looks like the
    deletion and creation of a new file with no record of the connection.
    --

    Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
    The Java Glossary
    http://mindprod.com
     
    Roedy Green, Jul 24, 2008
    #19
  20. On Jul 24, 6:51 am, Hendrik Maryns <> wrote:
    > Lew schreef:
    > | Daniel Dyer wrote:
    > |
    > |> That may have been the case a few years ago, but I don't think it is
    > |> now.  I'd say that Subversion is at least as widely supported as CVS..
    > |
    > | Call me Luddite, but I don't get it.  CVS works great, and I've taken
    > | the time to learn some of its cooler features, and I don't like all the
    > | "improvements" in Subversion.  Some, sure, but not all, and not enough
    > | to justify the learning curve.  So far.
    >
    > Ok, this is getting OT, but could you elaborate on that?  I use both,
    > svn for my own projects and cvs for other projects I contribute to, and
    > I have to say svn suits me better most of the time.  Though I have to
    > admit that cvs is also still developing and getting better.


    Of the (fairly wide) range of version control tools I've used, svn's
    approach to branches and merging is the second most primitive - second
    to CVS. That's improving; svn 1.5 adds a much-needed merge-tracking
    feature, but ultimately branches need to be a fundamental concept for
    a version control system, and for svn they're not; they're a second-
    order consequence of another feature entirely, instead.

    -o
     
    Owen Jacobson, Jul 24, 2008
    #20
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