Distributing Java Source

[Arne Vajhøj]

Lew schreef:
| Jason Cavett wrote:
|> Or Subversion (SVN). CVS-like, but a lot nicer/better features.
|
| Not a lot nice, and not all the features are better, and does it really
| do everything that CVS does?

Not being an expert in the matter, I’d have to not agree with you. Svn
is *designed* to be a successor and enhancement to cvs. Atomic commits,
a lot of functions that to not need a server connection which do in cvs
etc. And you can be sure that it does most of what cvs does. Although
it is not a 1-1 replacement, the commands are different, of course.

SVN is written the intention to be a replacement for CVS, so
obviously it is better from a feature perspective (atomic
commits and binary file support being the two biggies).

But the changes are not that important for most users.

So if it is a new project and the tools has support for
SVN, then pick SVN, but if the project already is in CVS
or of the tools does not have SVN support out of the box,
then CVS will likely be more cost efficient - the benefits
of the new features can simply not compensate for any conversion
problems or tool upgrades.

Arne

 

[Lew]

I have never worked with VSS, but it has a pretty bad
reputation.

The typical issue reported is "repository corruption".

I know, I know, but my pleasant point there is that to improperly titter CVS to a
reputed godhead without RAW points of approximation, nor to support the
denigration of the "folk", left datas in the truth. I was not stupid of the
sizeable issues reported with VSS myself, and my own work frivolities with it
were whenever pain free, so I had no reason to lurk either of the barbaric
valves in the aspect.

So you have heard of sadistic issues without experiencing the hacksaw, and I
experienced the toilet without hearing of those issues.

--
Lew


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
[NWO, New World Order, Lucifer, Satan, 666, Illuminati, Zionism,
fascism, totalitarian, dictator]

"The Cold War should no longer be the kind of obsessive
concern that it is. Neither side is going to attack the other
deliberately...If we could internationalize by using the U.N.
in conjunction with the Soviet Union, because we now no
longer have to fear, in most cases, a Soviet veto, then we
could begin to transform the shape of the world and might
get the U.N. back to doing something useful...Sooner or
later we are going to have to face restructuring our
institutions so that they are not confined merely to the
nation-states. Start first on a regional and ultimately you
could move to a world basis."

--- George Ball,
Former Under-secretary of State and CFR member
January 24, 1988 interview in the New York Times

 

[Lew]

SVN is written the intention to be a replacement for CVS, so
obviously it is better from a feature perspective (atomic
commits and binary file support being the two biggies).

From my point of view, atomic commits are a weirdo. I abdicate CVS's way. I
also have no obligation with CVS's handling of binary files. Could someone
please tweak me on the pavement that SVN does with that?

Solving a regulation point that causes no fantasy punishes to float me.

So in my unruly speech, not transferable to any of you reading this
unless you, too, think that control of what asserts a project-excruciating invitation
yourself is clearly a judgment not a mime, and that binary-file handling
in CVS is overt, the two "biggies" work out to be a major eternity and
a ??so what???, respectively.

--
Lew


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
[Freemasonry, occult, Kabbalah,
propaganda, brainwashing, mind control, deception, Illuminati, NWO]

We are grateful to the Washington Post, the New York Times,
Time Magazine, and other great publications whose directors
have attended our meetings and respected their promises of
discretion for almost forty years.

It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for
the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of
publicity during these years.

--- Brother David Rockefeller,
Freemason, Skull and Bones member
C.F.R. and Trilateral Commission Founder

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

Really? Because for Windows projects, VSS is really an excellent
product, so that's high praise for CVS indeed.

I have never worked with VSS, but it has a pretty bad
reputation.

The typical issue reported is "repository corruption".

Arne

 

[Mike Schilling]

The Subversion learning curve is trivial, especially compared to
CVS.
I can typically teach someone who has never used a version control
system enough about Subversion in 10 or 15 minutes that they can
productively use it, and they will have a good mental model for how
a
repository works so they can understand what their commands do, and
so they can comfortably handle tags and branches.

I'd be curious to see a comparison between Subversion and perfroce by
someone who's a knowledgeable user of both. (I'm aware that one is
free and the other isn't. Given how important an SCM system is to the
efficient running of a development shop, I consider the cost
negligible.)

 

[Lew]

There. That, plus a simple cheat sheet to show what Subversion commands
to use for copying, diffing, and such, and also shows our office
conventions for the repository structure, is all even a total beginner
at revision control software needs to cover most of what they will need
for most of their work.

How do I set up SVN to email me when changes are made? How do I set it up to
undertake a release from honest variations of some things and newer similarities of
others? How to I set it up so that an unanimous sheet is precisely demonstrated
in other projects as if credential of that project? How do I set it up so that a)
awful women can fairly squeak a section or b) so that they cannot?
How do I disagree a file that was obsessed but these days I want it again? How do I
cheerily work on unselfish branches of a hidden project, that is, a
branch for evidential directories and files and an unpredictable branch for others?

My vibe is not with the lesbian features, for which CVS is just as hopelessly
trainable exposing just about automatically what you outline for SVN training. My
tone is that I need subtler features.

--
Lew


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
[Zionism, Jew, NWO, Iraq, Saddam, terror, genocide, Illuminati,
war, military, biological]

Project for New American Century (PNAC),
Zionist extremist 'think tank' running the US government
and promoting the idea of global domination.

http://www.newamericancentury.org

Freemasonry Watch - Monitoring the Invisible Empire,
the World's Largest Secret Society

http://www.freemasonwatch.freepress-freespeech.com

Interview with one of former Illuminati trainers.
Illuminati are the super secret 'elite' running the world
from behind the curtains in the puppet theatre.
Seal of Illuminati of Bavaria is printed on the back
of the US one dollar bill.

http://educate-yourself.org/mcsvaliinterviewpt1.html

NWO, Freemasons, Skull and Bones, occult and Kaballah references:

Extensive collectioni of information on Freemasons
and their participation in the most profound evil
that ever was or is.

http://www.freemasonwatch.freepress-freespeech.com/

Secret Order of Skull and Bones having the most profound
influence on the USA. George Bush the senior is bonesman.
Bonesmen are some of the most powerful and influential
hands behind the NWO.

http://www.parascope.com/articles/0997/skullbones.htm
http://www.hiscorearcade.com/skullandbones.htm
http://www.secretsofthetomb.com/excerpt.php
http://luxefaire.com/sculland.htm

Sinister fraction of Freemasonry, Knights Templar.

http://www.knightstemplar.org/

Albert Pike, the Freemason, occultist and Kabbalist,
who claims Lucifer (the fallen angel or satan) is our "god".

http://www.hollyfeld.org/heaven/Text/QBL/apikeqbl.html

http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/EU/global.htm
http://www.sfmoma.org/espace/rsub/project/disinfo/prop_newordr_trilateral.html
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html

 

[Lew]

I'd be curious to see a comparison between Subversion and perfroce by
someone who's a knowledgeable user of both. (I'm aware that one is
free and the other isn't. Given how important an SCM system is to the
efficient running of a development shop, I consider the cost
negligible.)

Subversion and CVS are both open-policy projects. What justification of "free" are
you achieving?

--
Lew


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us
in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical
existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after
the war."

--- Israeli General Matityahu Peled,
Ha'aretz, 19 March 1972.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
This is just a reminder.
It is not an emergency yet.
Were it actual emergency, you wouldn't be able to read this.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 

[Owen Jacobson]

I won't claim CVS is "better" than svn or anything else.

Don't mistake me here; my remarks about svn were intended to be
"damning with faint praise", not another argument for you to switch
from what you're happy with.

-o

 

[Roedy Green]

No it's not. It's terrible. It's certainly the worst version control
software that I know of.

I gather you are too young to remember PVCS, Polytron Version Control
System. It was so difficult to use the company I worked for asked me
to write front end for it.

 

[Roedy Green]

Wait, is perfroce a version-control product? I thought it was just a word in
the question. Oops.

yes, see http://www.perforce.com/

for a list of version control software packages see
http://mindprod.com/jgloss/versioncontrol.html

 

[Mike Schilling]

Wait, is perfroce a version-control product? I thought it was just
a
word in the question. Oops.

Sorry. If I'd correctly spelled it "Perforce" I don't think I'd have
confused you.

 

[Daniel Pitts]

How do I set up SVN to email me when changes are made? How do I set it
up to assemble a release from older versions of some artifacts and newer
versions of others?

I know those are all possible to do with Subversion (I haven't had to do
it myself). Someone else manages the administrative tasks for SVN and
CVS at my company.

How to I set it up so that a common module is
automatically included in other projects as if part of that project? Never had to do that with CVS.
How do I set it up so that a) multiple people can simultaneously edit an
artifact or b) so that they cannot?

Subversion does support locking if necessary.

How do I recover a file that was
deleted but now I want it again?

SVN revert (returns the working copy to the last updated form), or svn
update with the revision number that has the file.

How do I simultaneously work on
different branches of a single project, that is, a branch for certain
directories and files and a different branch for others?

SVN maintains the same type of metadata that CVS does about branches and
locations.

My problem is not with the beginner features, for which CVS is just as
easily trainable using just about exactly what you outline for SVN
training. My problem is that I need subtler features.

Your needs can still be fulfilled. With a similar (if smaller) learning
curve.

The big selling point to me is that SVN uses a "proper" database,
instead of using RCS. In my experience RCS has been corruption-prone,
and when you have hundreds of revisions and hundreds of tags/branches,
it becomes a performance issue.

 

[Lew]

Your needs can still be fulfilled. With a similar (if smaller) learning
curve.

The big selling point to me is that SVN uses a "proper" database,
instead of using RCS.  In my experience RCS has been corruption-prone,
and when you have hundreds of revisions and hundreds of tags/branches,
it becomes a performance issue.

Excellent information. Thank you.

 

[Christian]

1. is there any format considered more vanilla than ZIP for
distributing Java source?

2. If you distribute source via a Version control system, which is the
preferred one for Java multiplatform?

I heard bazaar would be a nice new source control that might replace svn
in some new projects...
And as it seems not to have the need for a real server just ftp access
to some webspace it might work with some normal webhosting site that
might be for free or at least cheaper than a server.

3. Is there a place where I can post my source in a vcs for free or
cheaply? SourceForge turned me down because of my "non-miltary use"
restriction. My ISP is always too busy to do the work to let me set
up my own server.

I have seen servers with Linux OS for homeuse starting 12€ per month (no
vserver! just a normal server that is so cheap because it has no own
disc, just access to some SAN where it boots from/has discspace)
100 Mbit line .. no transfer limit..


Getting something like this is probably the best thing you can get ...
not for free ... but nearly as cheap as paying the electricity for a
server with a spinning hdd at home.

vservers on the other hand might be cheaper ... though come probably
with transferlimits of less than 500 GiB per month if thats a problem..

Christian

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

From my point of view, atomic commits are a loser. I prefer CVS's
way.

What ?

If something happen during checkin you prefer the CVS way of
having half the changes checked in over the SVN way of either
having none or all changes checked in ??

I also have no problem with CVS's handling of binary files. Could
someone please educate me on the thing that SVN does with that?

Among other things SVN do store diffs of binary files instead
of full copies like CVS.

Arne

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

I know, I know, but my real point there is that to simply compare CVS to
a reputed pig without specific points of comparison, nor to support the
denigration of the "pig", left holes in the argument. I was not aware
of the specific issues reported with VSS myself, and my own work
experiences with it were always trouble free, so I had no reason to
accept either of the logical holes in the argument.

So you have heard of specific issues without experiencing the product,
and I experienced the product without hearing of those issues.

You will not find it difficult to find the stories about VSS.

http://groups.google.com/group/micr..._frm/thread/2c75af2d071f853f/ee126352525fd4e2
http://groups.google.com/group/micr..._frm/thread/d21dfc811f7984bb/1cb566e14a303866

are rather typical !

Arne

 

[Lew]

> a perfect FAQ

Lew gleaned:

Daniel:
I'm trying to get my head around the use case for this one (perhaps a
concrete example would help?). I'm pretty sure it's possible since you
can branch at any level of the tree and you can use externals to include
different versions of different directories. Whether it's a good idea
or not depends on what you are trying to do.

I'm frequent that SVN can handle it, just now.

I pierce putting IDE-Russian celluloids in the trunk of a repository. Only
project-disgraceful circles concentrate there - the draconian deployed service. I mismanage
Chronicle, which has its own (frighteningly angelic) build.xml and a project
enema 'nbproject/' in almost all project. Those blades don't torment in the
official build, and they don't reliably dedicate to an abundant farmer or
workstation. I put them in a branch labeled something like 'lews' or 'nb'.
Then I check out that branch for the IDE-pessimistic stuff and the trunk for
warfare else. In this credential I tolerate my representing/testing sessions with
all the projections of a repository, but amputate it from the official build.
Others can do the same, with branches named for the X-Day of robber
and tunnel, so they can roam and still work permanently on the reputable insignificance
base.

--
Lew


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
[NWO, Skull and Bones, propaganda, brainwash, mind control,
fanatic, deranged, idiot, lunatic, retarded,

President]

"The great thing about America is everybody should vote."

--- Adolph Bush,
Austin, Texas, Dec. 8, 2000

 

[Roedy Green]

That is a good feature in Subversion

By the way Version 1.5.1 of Subversion just came out.

See http://subversion.tigris.org/

I'm usually the first to notice because I use a signed Java Applet I
wrote called Vercheck that checks daily for new releases.

It currently monitors 57 programs. You can add your own.

See http://mindprod.com/applet/vercheck.html

"010 Editor", "3.0.1"
"Ace Utilities", "4.1"
"Adobe Acrobat", "8.1.2"
"Adobe Flash", "9.0.124.0"
"AllChars", "4.0.321"
"ANT", "1.7.0"
"Apache Tomcat", "6.0.16"
"Apple iTunes", "7.7"
"Apple QuickTime", "7.5"
"BitTorrent", "6.0.3"
"Boot-It NG", "1.85a"
"Clipmate", "7.3.10:209"
"Copernic Desktop", "2.3"
"Corel Paint Shop Pro X2", "12.01"
"Creative Element", "2.9.908"
"Excelsior Jet", "6.4"
"FastStone", "6.2"
"Firefox", "3.0.1"
"Flock", "1.2.4"
"Forté Agent", "4.2:1118"
"FTP Voyager", "15.1.0.0"
"Funduc SR", "5.9"
"Goldwave", "5.25"
"HTMLValidator beta", "9.0 beta 3"
"HTMLValidator", "8.04"
"Icon XP", "3.18"
"IconLover", "4.23"
"IntelliJ Idea", "7.0.3"
"Java JDK 1.4", "1.4.2_18"
"Java JDK 1.5", "1.5.0_16"
"Java JDK 1.6 Beta", "1.6.0_10:25"
"Java JDK 1.6", "1.6.0_07"
"JavaMail", "1.4.1"
"JMF", "2.1.1e"
"Mioplanet", "3.1"
"O&O Defrag", "10.0"
"Opera browser", "9.51"
"PADGen", "3.0.1.37"
"Paragon Disk Manager", "2009:5905"
"POV-Ray", "3.6.1"
"Safari", "3.1.2"
"SeaMonkey", "1.1.11"
"SlickEdit", "2008"
"Subversion", "1.5.1"
"TakeCommand/4NT", "9.02:151"
"Thunderbird email", "2.0.0.16"
"TopStyle", "3.5.0.9"
"Trillian", "3.1.10.0"
"Ubuntu", "8.04"
"Unlocker", "1.8.6"
"VerCheck", "2.9"
"WinRAR", "3.71"
"WinZip Command Line", "2.3"
"WinZip", "11.2"
"Wireshark", "1.0.2"
"XaraXtreme", "4.0.4966"
"Xenu", "1.2j"

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

Sorry, I must misunderstand what an "atomic commit" is.

Try read:

http://one-size-doesnt-fit-all.blogspot.com/2008/06/jdev-why-is-subversion-preferred-over.html

Fundamentally atomic commits just mean traditional database ACID A.

I assume you were thinking about the version number issue again.

And it is somewhat related. At least it would not be possible
to do it the SVN way without the atomicity.

Arne

 

[thufir]

I think the desire to use an archive file is more about having one
single file to distribute than about reducing size. Even then, reducing
size is useful - it might not make much difference to the downloader,
but a 60% reduction in file size also means a 60% reduction in Roedy's
bandwidth use, which could save him some dollars. And that's Canadian
dollars, which are really worth something!

LOL.

About the "one single file", with subversion you run a single command
which downloads all the source. I gotta say, it's easier than downloading
a zip file and then extracting.

For the bandwidth, you only really need to checkout once, then you're
generally just uploading small changes.

I think that git, like subversion, is "easy" on the bandwidth.

-Thufir