Frontpage/Dreamweaver

[Jeff]

dorayme... you and me should stick together...

CMSs are great if you want a slow (witness PLONE - awful. It's so slow it's
painful), 'breakable', insecure, non-standards-compliant site IMHO, and
should not be used unless your content changes every day, hour or minute.

Well, then, don't use PLONE. I never heard of it until now.

Much more cost effective to engage a web developer who knows what they are
doing, methinks . Higher quality code and much more effective use of
resources.

You don't want a CMS that works like a "Word Doc" editor.

...and it DOESN'T MATTER what tools you use... the quality of the

code has got much more to do with the developer than the tools that he or
she uses IMHO.

Well, it's not code but markup. The markup is just headings,
paragraphs, lists, images and the occasional table and other oddity. The
trouble you get in is when you combine content with presentation.

The largest site I do work for is a mid size city, they'll have a
site look redesign shortly. That'll be a couple of template changes but
it will be transparent to the content editors and the switch will take
about a second or two to remake the hundreds of pages. I'd hate to have
to download and reedit all those pages one at a time.

I make small template/ functionality changes often. They are always
transparent and never give any trouble.

Jeff

 

[dorayme]

There's a big difference between doing this as a personal site versus
commercial work. If you are doing commercial work one page at a time,
good luck to your client!

There is also a big difference between commercial sites. Some are
heavy with products and pictures where the changes can affect the
look and feel of the site, pics have to be prepared properly, the
amounts of text and links have to be managed well. There is a
naive perception about that one can separate content from design
without cost to either.

 

[Jeff]

There is also a big difference between commercial sites.

Yes, there is. There are commercial sites where the design is very
important. A lot of those are flash.

Some are

heavy with products and pictures where the changes can affect the
look and feel of the site, pics have to be prepared properly,

Well sure. But you don't need a html expert to do that. Might help if
they weren't. Frankly I'm not so sure that html experts make nice
looking web pages. Hell, if you are mostly interested in the look,
shouldn't you just use a wysiwyg editor and not have to go back and
forth between html and a browser.

the

amounts of text and links have to be managed well.

I've never seen much trouble with that. As long as you can add pages.

There is a

naive perception about that one can separate content from design
without cost to either.

Sure you can always dress up a page. But what if somebody else has to
go back in and maintain it? I'm sure you can make very nice customized
web pages one at a time, but then what? Custom pages have their place,
but for most pages on most sites, it's the content that's most
important, not the look. You really don't want to have pages where the
margins and padding on each element are individually set. It's possible
to find aesthetic compromises and then deal with the exceptions.

Jeff

 

[dorayme]

Yes, there is. There are commercial sites where the design is very
important. A lot of those are flash.

Some are

Well sure. But you don't need a html expert to do that.

I see you have some fine grained idea about jobs and roles. I
have this idea that there is a role called website maker and
maintainer. This job includes a reasonable knowledge of html, css
and graphics, a bit of php, a bit of javascript and like that.

I guess we live in different worlds, Jeff. In my world, there are
no websites that get thrown about like footballs to various
people to do things to them.

I am not denying that some pages of a website can profitably be
"content-manageable". I am not against content management systems.

 

[rf]

I see you have some fine grained idea about jobs and roles. I
have this idea that there is a role called website maker and
maintainer. This job includes a reasonable knowledge of html, css
and graphics, a bit of php, a bit of javascript and like that.

I guess we live in different worlds, Jeff. In my world, there are
no websites that get thrown about like footballs to various
people to do things to them.

There *are* some out there however. Witness the number of people who arrive
here with a question about how to do something. When told "this can't be
done with HTML" they complain and say "but that's what the designer wants".
If said designer knew just a little tiny bit about how HTML works said
designer would never have "designed" an impossible page in the first place.
And it's a fair bet that said "designer" has breezed in from the print
world.

 

[Jeff]

I see you have some fine grained idea about jobs and roles. I
have this idea that there is a role called website maker and
maintainer. This job includes a reasonable knowledge of html, css
and graphics, a bit of php, a bit of javascript and like that.

Hows that working out for you?

I don't see a lot of demand for such a creature. Mostly I see
specific needs where you should know a lot about some of those. The
small webdesign firms usually have a couple people where one is design
orientated and the other program orientated.
I really don't see a lot of success in the web developer you
describe. Convince me otherwise.

The people that I see that sort of have skills that you describe, do
a lot of outsourcing and seem to have other non web jobs as well. Not
many successful jack of all web trades that I've seen. You've seen all
the websites of the stray designers that come wandering in here, did any
of them impress as you as being successful?

I guess we live in different worlds, Jeff. In my world, there are
no websites that get thrown about like footballs to various
people to do things to them.

Most of the site I see are managed by the site owner, I'll get an
occasional call for something specific. The larger sites I see have
people in different departments that handle different sections of the
site. I'll get the same occasional call to set up something new or for
some odd question. I have exactly one client where I do work something
like you describe, and I think this client is more than a bit out there.

Now, if you make a living doing the kind of web work you describe, or
know someone that does. I'd like to hear about it. Frankly I'm skeptical
that there is a living there.

Jeff

 

[dorayme]

dorayme wrote:
Hows that working out for you?

I don't see a lot of demand for such a creature. ...
I really don't see a lot of success in the web developer you
describe. Convince me otherwise.

Perhaps there is not a lot of demand? Perhaps it is all going
like a lot of commercial film making, to lowest common
denominator ruin because there are too many cooks. Perhaps I am
wrong to think there is still some artistry and beauty in the
business and it needs a good firm overall grip by someone who
knows a bit about a few things to make it all nice.

I'll have to pass on the invitation to convince you. Amazing as
it seems, I have 'jack of all trades' (and "master of none") work
to do!

 

[Jeff]

So far so good. What do you want, my income before tax? <g>

Well, I'm glad to hear that!

Perhaps there is not a lot of demand? Perhaps it is all going
like a lot of commercial film making, to lowest common
denominator ruin because there are too many cooks.

Now, here we differ I really don't think much of this at all is going
LCD. I think what most people want/need out of their sites is going up.
But I think site maintenance is right on top of the list.


Perhaps I am

wrong to think there is still some artistry and beauty in the
business and it needs a good firm overall grip by someone who
knows a bit about a few things to make it all nice.

You make it all sound so dreary. You can do nice work and have it
maintainable. You don't have to have an iron grip on the creativity
every time a page needs to be changed.

I'll have to pass on the invitation to convince you. Amazing as
it seems, I have 'jack of all trades' (and "master of none") work
to do!

I suspect I've just been around longer than you. I've created sites
where every page was different, I just think now that giving the site
owner control is important.

Jeff

 

[asdf]

Perhaps there is not a lot of demand? Perhaps it is all going
like a lot of commercial film making, to lowest common
denominator ruin because there are too many cooks. Perhaps I am
wrong to think there is still some artistry and beauty in the
business and it needs a good firm overall grip by someone who
knows a bit about a few things to make it all nice.

I'll have to pass on the invitation to convince you. Amazing as
it seems, I have 'jack of all trades' (and "master of none") work
to do!

Same here... and I would suggest that outside the major corporations, this
is the norm rather than the exception, and speaking for myself 'such a
creature' is in high demand.

 

[dorayme]

"dorayme"


Same here... and I would suggest that outside the major corporations, this
is the norm rather than the exception, and speaking for myself 'such a
creature' is in high demand.

Hey asdf! Wait till you get to do a whole planet's website! That
is demanding! <g>

 

[dorayme]

I suspect I've just been around longer than you. I've created sites
where every page was different, I just think now that giving the site
owner control is important.

We sure do differ then! For me, giving an owner *control* of his
site is like encouraging the man who buys a Rembrandt to get his
unused-since-school art class paints out to have a go at a few
modifications... a bit of a dabble with the oil and turps...

I don't even reveal the web server passwords to my clients. One
company sent a heavy mob around, I got water-boarded, I got the
dripping tap on the forehead, I got the electric shock to the
privates, but I never bloody gave in. No way! They were so
impressed they offered to double my pay. I said, nah, never mind
the buckeroos, just let me have a free swing at the bastards you
sent around...

 

[asdf]

Hey asdf! Wait till you get to do a whole planet's website! That
is demanding! <g>

Umm...actually I'm contracted to do a global warming site... does that
count?

 

[dorayme]

Umm...actually I'm contracted to do a global warming site... does that
count?

You're getting warm. (Ho ho ho...)

Btw, http://mars.com/ is an imposter. I would not use Flash this
way and I would not demand that my viewers get the latest Flash
installation.

 

[Andy Dingley]

For my needs, that's just fine. Nothing but pure text in tables.

So why do you need WYSIWYG?

 

[Andy Dingley]

You have to be a quite masochist to have a site that isn't CMS.

Rubbish! CMS is the coupling of a database with a presentation
engine. If the site content is static (and for a lot of small business
sites that's not uncommon), this is a lot of extra complexity for no
benefit. Using smart tools (templating etc.) _before_ publication
gets you all those same benefits.

 

[Travis Newbury]

Rubbish! CMS is the coupling of a database with a presentation
engine. If the site content is static (and for a lot of small business
sites that's not uncommon), this is a lot of extra complexity for no
benefit. Using smart tools (templating etc.) _before_ publication
gets you all those same benefits.

Got to agree with Mr Dingly here.

I think like most everything else, a CMS is a tool. Sometimes this
tool is great, other times not so great. Making global statements
like "You have to be a quite masochist to have a site that isn't CMS."
implies that in your mind there is never an alternative. To me that
says closed minded.

 

[Travis Newbury]

If said designer knew just a little tiny bit about how HTML works said
designer would never have "designed" an impossible page in the first place.
And it's a fair bet that said "designer" has breezed in from the print
world.

Wait a second, I know HTML, I know CSS, I know ASP, and dabble in
PHP. And I also know Photoshop, Flash, Illustrator, and Javascript.
And with knowledge of all these tools, I do not believe I ever ran
into page design I could not build.

I believe what you meant to say is that if a designer believes in
"your web philosophy", then they would not "want" to build anything
your philosophy considers an impossible page.

 

[Travis Newbury]

We sure do differ then! For me, giving an owner *control* of his
site is like encouraging the man who buys a Rembrandt to get his
unused-since-school art class paints out to have a go at a few
modifications... a bit of a dabble with the oil and turps...

I tend to disagree (a little) based on real life experience. Siemens
Intranet is built on Microsoft's Sharepoint technology and their CMS.
It is completely maintained by novices with absolutely no knowledge of
HTML at all. They go through a day class on how to use the CMS. From
there they are set free to start building their pages. All image or
media content is placed in the DMS, and the DMS is the only place they
can pull page assets. The resulting pages look great, they don't have
a staff of several developers maintaining the site, the entire look
and feel of the site is controlled via global CSS that is maintained
by Siemens AG.

Sure, this is not a mom and pop, which I agree with you, there is
probably little need for a CMS. But I believe that a CMS maintained
by a knowledgeable team can create good looking sites that the end
use, with no html skills at all, can easily maintain on their own with
little or no input form the designers or developers.

 

[Travis Newbury]

Umm...actually I'm contracted to do a global warming site... does that
count?

Are you going to be getting paid in carbon credits?

 

[Travis Newbury]

Btw,http://mars.com/is an imposter. I would not use Flash this
way and I would not demand that my viewers get the latest Flash
installation.

I agree that this is some lousy Flash (first sign was the "wait while
I load" that popped up). But, I do disagree with you about forcing my
users to get the latest Flash. Eventually they will have to upgrade,
so why not now?