HTML or Dreamweaver?

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Violet, Jun 1, 2006.

  1. Violet

    Violet Guest

    I'm supposed to be starting up my on-line business in October and I
    haven't written any pages yet.
    I've made a non-commercial site in the past with 'FrontPage' but this
    has to look professional & deal with orders & payments.

    My Computer dealer says use Dreamweaver but I'm learning web design &
    HTML which my tutor insists is a better way to make & update the site.

    I've spent most of the night doing rough outlines of a few main pages &
    I'm not nearly as quick as I used to be at learning new stuff.

    I considered having it built for me in the first place but have heard a
    lot of bad stories of how that can go wrong.

    I'm floundering a bit & have had to go back to wotk full time so am
    trying to get this done in any spare time I have, usually a night.
    Would rally appreciate any advice or comments. Verity
    Violet, Jun 1, 2006
    #1
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  2. Violet wrote:

    > My Computer dealer says use Dreamweaver but I'm learning web design &
    > HTML which my tutor insists is a better way to make & update the site.


    Dreamweaver is a tool that may speed up your production of webpages - but if
    you are going to produce something of reasonable quality, it is essential
    that you understand what it is trying to do.

    Learn HTML. Learn CSS. Become proficient at producing webpages by hand, and
    then see if you can produce good quality pages with the tool.

    (On a cynical note, dabs.com sell Dreamweaver for about £350, so I'm sure
    your dealer would /love/ you to buy a copy from him for your development.
    Developing by hand calls for a text editor, and there are many very good
    text editors available for free.)

    --
    David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
    Home is where the ~/.bashrc is
    David Dorward, Jun 1, 2006
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Violet

    verity Guest

    David Dorward wrote:
    > Violet wrote:
    >
    > > My Computer dealer says use Dreamweaver but I'm learning web design &
    > > HTML which my tutor insists is a better way to make & update the site.

    >
    > Dreamweaver is a tool that may speed up your production of webpages - butif
    > you are going to produce something of reasonable quality, it is essential
    > that you understand what it is trying to do.
    >
    > Learn HTML. Learn CSS. Become proficient at producing webpages by hand, and
    > then see if you can produce good quality pages with the tool.
    >
    > (On a cynical note, dabs.com sell Dreamweaver for about £350, so I'm sure
    > your dealer would /love/ you to buy a copy from him for your development.
    > Developing by hand calls for a text editor, and there are many very good
    > text editors available for free.)
    >
    > --
    > David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
    > Home is where the ~/.bashrc is


    Thank you so much David, I needed that advice, It reinforced my 'gut'
    reaction because my 'dealer' also *advised* me about a lot of other
    stuff I really need for my business.
    I'm getting some general business advice but not from web design
    specialists & everyone seems to have an 'angle' or to want to give
    some advice rather than admit they don't really know the best moves
    forward.

    I've had other business ventures & done various projects which have
    called on me to use IT skills but I think the reall problem may be that
    at 51, I'm maybe biting off more than I can chew.
    I think my ideas are so good, I'm better aiming at a trial web-site
    with some low key products to see what kinks there are in the complete
    business system, before hitting the market with my own product line.

    Thanks again, I'll stay in touch with this group, & try & follow the
    threads. Verity
    verity, Jun 1, 2006
    #3
  4. On Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:25:58 +0100, verity wrote
    (in article <>):

    >
    > David Dorward wrote:
    >> Violet wrote:
    >>
    >>> My Computer dealer says use Dreamweaver but I'm learning web design &
    >>> HTML which my tutor insists is a better way to make & update the site.

    >>
    >> Dreamweaver is a tool that may speed up your production of webpages - but if
    >> you are going to produce something of reasonable quality, it is essential
    >> that you understand what it is trying to do.
    >>
    >> Learn HTML. Learn CSS. Become proficient at producing webpages by hand, and
    >> then see if you can produce good quality pages with the tool.
    >>

    <snip>
    >
    > Thank you so much David, I needed that advice, It reinforced my 'gut'
    > reaction because my 'dealer' also *advised* me about a lot of other
    > stuff I really need for my business.
    > I'm getting some general business advice but not from web design
    > specialists & everyone seems to have an 'angle' or to want to give
    > some advice rather than admit they don't really know the best moves
    > forward.
    >
    > I've had other business ventures & done various projects which have
    > called on me to use IT skills but I think the reall problem may be that
    > at 51, I'm maybe biting off more than I can chew.
    > I think my ideas are so good, I'm better aiming at a trial web-site
    > with some low key products to see what kinks there are in the complete
    > business system, before hitting the market with my own product line.


    You're never too old! I think you might be surprised at the probable age
    range of this group. When getting started, I found the tutorials at
    w3schools were easy to follow and experiment with although I now understand
    there are one or two things on there that the experts disagree with:
    <http://www.w3schools.com/>

    > Thanks again, I'll stay in touch with this group, & try & follow the
    > threads.


    When I started reading the technical groups (I think this was the first),
    about 99% of the content was over my head, but I persevered. Now I
    understand most of it (and ignore the bits which are over my head<g>).

    A gentle hint. You have posted almost the same message in alt.www.webmaster.
    To save those who subscribe to both groups, it is better to cross-post
    rather than multi-post, then those of us who have the appropriate filters on
    our newsreaders only have to read the message once :)



    --
    Sally in Shropshire, UK
    bed and breakfast near Ludlow: http://www.stonybrook-ludlow.co.uk
    Burne-Jones/William Morris window in Shropshire church:
    http://www.whitton-stmarys.org.uk
    Sally Thompson, Jun 1, 2006
    #4
  5. Violet wrote:
    > My Computer dealer says use Dreamweaver but I'm learning web design &
    > HTML which my tutor insists is a better way to make & update the site.


    First, knowing HTML/CSS, coding correctly, and using Dreamweaver are
    not mutually exclusive. Dreamweaver is just an Editor. YOU control
    the code.

    Second, HTML/CSS is child's play in comparison to web design.
    Travis Newbury, Jun 1, 2006
    #5
  6. Violet

    verity Guest

    Sally Thompson wrote:
    > On Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:25:58 +0100, verity wrote
    > (in article <>):
    >
    > >
    > > David Dorward wrote:
    > >> Violet wrote:
    > >>
    > >>> My Computer dealer says use Dreamweaver but I'm learning web design &
    > >>> HTML which my tutor insists is a better way to make & update the site.
    > >>
    > >> Dreamweaver is a tool that may speed up your production of webpages - but if
    > >> you are going to produce something of reasonable quality, it is essential
    > >> that you understand what it is trying to do.
    > >>
    > >> Learn HTML. Learn CSS. Become proficient at producing webpages by hand, and
    > >> then see if you can produce good quality pages with the tool.
    > >>

    > <snip>
    > >
    > > Thank you so much David, I needed that advice, It reinforced my 'gut'
    > > reaction because my 'dealer' also *advised* me about a lot of other
    > > stuff I really need for my business.
    > > I'm getting some general business advice but not from web design
    > > specialists & everyone seems to have an 'angle' or to want to give
    > > some advice rather than admit they don't really know the best moves
    > > forward.
    > >
    > > I've had other business ventures & done various projects which have
    > > called on me to use IT skills but I think the reall problem may be that
    > > at 51, I'm maybe biting off more than I can chew.
    > > I think my ideas are so good, I'm better aiming at a trial web-site
    > > with some low key products to see what kinks there are in the complete
    > > business system, before hitting the market with my own product line.

    >
    > You're never too old! I think you might be surprised at the probable age
    > range of this group. When getting started, I found the tutorials at
    > w3schools were easy to follow and experiment with although I now understand
    > there are one or two things on there that the experts disagree with:
    > <http://www.w3schools.com/>
    >
    > > Thanks again, I'll stay in touch with this group, & try & follow the
    > > threads.

    >
    > When I started reading the technical groups (I think this was the first),
    > about 99% of the content was over my head, but I persevered. Now I
    > understand most of it (and ignore the bits which are over my head<g>).
    >
    > A gentle hint. You have posted almost the same message in alt.www.webmaster.
    > To save those who subscribe to both groups, it is better to cross-post
    > rather than multi-post, then those of us who have the appropriate filters on
    > our newsreaders only have to read the message once :)
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > Sally in Shropshire, UK
    > bed and breakfast near Ludlow: http://www.stonybrook-ludlow.co.uk
    > Burne-Jones/William Morris window in Shropshire church:
    > http://www.whitton-stmarys.org.uk


    Thank you so, so much. I have never cross-posted, so another thing I
    can try. Only started posting a couple of months ago because I had to
    for the on-line course I was doing. (Web Design).
    Love your house & the Church.
    I don't know much about William Morris only the quote which I often use
    to my children about "not having anything in the house....." I hate
    clutter, but then I hate dusting :)
    verity, Jun 1, 2006
    #6
  7. Violet

    verity Guest

    Travis Newbury wrote:
    > Violet wrote:
    > > My Computer dealer says use Dreamweaver but I'm learning web design &
    > > HTML which my tutor insists is a better way to make & update the site.

    >
    > First, knowing HTML/CSS, coding correctly, and using Dreamweaver are
    > not mutually exclusive. Dreamweaver is just an Editor. YOU control
    > the code.
    >
    > Second, HTML/CSS is child's play in comparison to web design.


    That makes me feel happier, I've done a simple design before using
    Front Page but was sort of thinking I might just copy styles of sites
    that I liked.
    Is that a big no-no for purists? :)
    verity, Jun 1, 2006
    #7
  8. verity wrote:

    > Travis Newbury wrote:
    >> Violet wrote:
    >>> My Computer dealer says use Dreamweaver but I'm learning web design
    >>> & HTML which my tutor insists is a better way to make & update the
    >>> site.

    >>
    >> First, knowing HTML/CSS, coding correctly, and using Dreamweaver are
    >> not mutually exclusive. Dreamweaver is just an Editor. YOU control
    >> the code.
    >>
    >> Second, HTML/CSS is child's play in comparison to web design.

    >
    > That makes me feel happier, I've done a simple design before using
    > Front Page but was sort of thinking I might just copy styles of sites
    > that I liked.


    Have a look here for basic HTML and CSS:
    http://htmldog.com/

    Templates I like:
    http://www.benmeadowcroft.com/webdev/
    http://webhost.bridgew.edu/etribou/layouts/

    > Is that a big no-no for purists? :)


    FrontPlague? Number 4 on the list of Worst Editors. <g>

    4. Microsoft FrontPage
    3. Microsoft Word
    2. Microsoft Excel
    1. Microsoft Publisher

    --
    -bts
    -Warning: I brake for lawn deer
    Beauregard T. Shagnasty, Jun 1, 2006
    #8
  9. Violet

    David Segall Guest

    "Violet" <> wrote:

    >I'm supposed to be starting up my on-line business in October and I
    >haven't written any pages yet.
    >I've made a non-commercial site in the past with 'FrontPage' but this
    >has to look professional & deal with orders & payments.

    If "deal with orders and payments" means a shopping cart as in most
    commercial web sites you _cannot_ write this yourself by October. Find
    a hosting company that offers this facility and use their web design
    tools to customize your site.

    HTML is not sufficient for writing the code on the server required to
    process orders and payments. I like Dreamweaver for writing HTML but
    that won't help with the server-side processing.
    David Segall, Jun 1, 2006
    #9
  10. Violet

    David Segall Guest

    "verity" <> wrote:

    >
    >Travis Newbury wrote:
    >> Violet wrote:
    >> > My Computer dealer says use Dreamweaver but I'm learning web design &
    >> > HTML which my tutor insists is a better way to make & update the site.

    >>
    >> First, knowing HTML/CSS, coding correctly, and using Dreamweaver are
    >> not mutually exclusive. Dreamweaver is just an Editor. YOU control
    >> the code.
    >>
    >> Second, HTML/CSS is child's play in comparison to web design.

    >
    >That makes me feel happier, I've done a simple design before using
    >Front Page but was sort of thinking I might just copy styles of sites
    >that I liked.
    >Is that a big no-no for purists? :)

    <http://www.oswd.org/> has 1637 free web site designs that you can use
    with no risk of infringing someone's copyright. However, I have posted
    elsewhere why you should stick to the choices offered by a hosting
    company that offers a shopping cart.
    David Segall, Jun 1, 2006
    #10
  11. Violet

    verity Guest

    Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
    > verity wrote:
    >
    > > Travis Newbury wrote:
    > >> Violet wrote:
    > >>> My Computer dealer says use Dreamweaver but I'm learning web design
    > >>> & HTML which my tutor insists is a better way to make & update the
    > >>> site.
    > >>
    > >> First, knowing HTML/CSS, coding correctly, and using Dreamweaver are
    > >> not mutually exclusive. Dreamweaver is just an Editor. YOU control
    > >> the code.
    > >>
    > >> Second, HTML/CSS is child's play in comparison to web design.

    > >
    > > That makes me feel happier, I've done a simple design before using
    > > Front Page but was sort of thinking I might just copy styles of sites
    > > that I liked.

    >
    > Have a look here for basic HTML and CSS:
    > http://htmldog.com/
    >
    > Templates I like:
    > http://www.benmeadowcroft.com/webdev/
    > http://webhost.bridgew.edu/etribou/layouts/
    >
    > > Is that a big no-no for purists? :)

    >
    > FrontPlague? Number 4 on the list of Worst Editors. <g>
    >
    > 4. Microsoft FrontPage
    > 3. Microsoft Word
    > 2. Microsoft Excel
    > 1. Microsoft Publisher
    >
    > --
    > -bts
    > -Warning: I brake for lawn deer


    Thank you so much, everyone is being so kind, I am raring to go. The
    sites seem very helpful, will check them out in detail tonight.

    BTW hope you don't think I am being too personal, but I think your name
    is super, do you live in the Southern USA?
    verity, Jun 1, 2006
    #11
  12. Violet

    verity Guest

    David Segall wrote:
    > "Violet" <> wrote:
    >
    > >I'm supposed to be starting up my on-line business in October and I
    > >haven't written any pages yet.
    > >I've made a non-commercial site in the past with 'FrontPage' but this
    > >has to look professional & deal with orders & payments.

    > If "deal with orders and payments" means a shopping cart as in most
    > commercial web sites you _cannot_ write this yourself by October. Find
    > a hosting company that offers this facility and use their web design
    > tools to customize your site.
    >
    > HTML is not sufficient for writing the code on the server required to
    > process orders and payments. I like Dreamweaver for writing HTML but
    > that won't help with the server-side processing.


    I think I understand that, you were very clear. I might put it off till
    next year but I shouldn't really because the orders will have a
    seasonal pattern.

    Not sure I actually need a shopping cart;
    think I will go for contact by answerphone, fax or email; so would I
    need a shopping cart?
    Or is it best to do that so I can readily expand - "think big!"

    I won't be having that many products to start with, mostly stuff I am
    designing & manufactoring myself. I already have a lot of the stuff
    I've designed and used, when I wanted to sell it via a similar site, I
    was appalled at how much commission they wanted just for advertising &
    processing orders.
    For other reasons also, I thought, start small in a small but not
    crowded niche & who knows? :)
    verity, Jun 1, 2006
    #12
  13. David Segall wrote:

    > If "deal with orders and payments" means a shopping cart as in most
    > commercial web sites you _cannot_ write this yourself by October.


    Elaborate on the source of this statement please.

    --
    Take care,

    Jonathan
    -------------------
    LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
    http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
    Jonathan N. Little, Jun 1, 2006
    #13
  14. Violet

    Andy Dingley Guest

    Jonathan N. Little wrote:
    > David Segall wrote:
    >
    > > If "deal with orders and payments" means a shopping cart as in most
    > > commercial web sites you _cannot_ write this yourself by October.

    >
    > Elaborate on the source of this statement please.


    I could offer a logical proof of this, but I find the empirical
    evidence more convincing. People who are asking "Should I use
    Dreamweaver to program my HTML?" do not have a good success rate at
    delivering shopping carts a mere 4 months later. Some of them do
    achieve it, but the results are rarely good, or secure.

    No-one should be writing shopping carts these days. Most people,
    including most web developers, just aren't skilled enough to do it.
    Even if you were, you'd be too valuable to waste your time on
    re-inventing such a task. It isn't '99 any more - there are now
    _plenty_ of off-the-shelf solutions for this, no need to build your
    own.

    To the OP, find some hosting with a decent bundled cart. Build around
    and customise that, don't start from scratch. Expect to pay real money
    to a real web developer to achieve this (You wouldn't do your own
    shopfitting, would you?). Look for recommendations from here or a.w.w.
    for both.
    Andy Dingley, Jun 1, 2006
    #14
  15. Violet

    David Segall Guest

    "verity" <> wrote:

    >
    >David Segall wrote:
    >> "Violet" <> wrote:
    >>
    >> >I'm supposed to be starting up my on-line business in October and I
    >> >haven't written any pages yet.
    >> >I've made a non-commercial site in the past with 'FrontPage' but this
    >> >has to look professional & deal with orders & payments.

    >> If "deal with orders and payments" means a shopping cart as in most
    >> commercial web sites you _cannot_ write this yourself by October. Find
    >> a hosting company that offers this facility and use their web design
    >> tools to customize your site.
    >>
    >> HTML is not sufficient for writing the code on the server required to
    >> process orders and payments. I like Dreamweaver for writing HTML but
    >> that won't help with the server-side processing.

    >
    >I think I understand that, you were very clear. I might put it off till
    >next year but I shouldn't really because the orders will have a
    >seasonal pattern.
    >
    >Not sure I actually need a shopping cart;
    >think I will go for contact by answerphone, fax or email; so would I
    >need a shopping cart?

    No. You can finish that before October. If you are satisfied with a
    simple page like mine <http://profectus.com.au/contact.html>, with
    some instructions for payment, then go for it. Once you need any
    processing on the server there is a huge leap in complexity.

    I suggest you pick a design from <http://www.oswd.org/> because it is
    easier to change an existing site than start from a blank page. To
    make your life easier when you come back here to ask for advice choose
    "yes" in the CSS drop-down on the advanced search page :). You can
    download a free thirty day trial of Dreamweaver from
    <http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/tdrc/index.cfm?product=dreamweaver> so
    you can compare it with the HTML editor your tutor recommends.
    >Or is it best to do that so I can readily expand - "think big!"

    I won't answer that. I have run a one-person business for many years!
    >
    >I won't be having that many products to start with, mostly stuff I am
    >designing & manufactoring myself. I already have a lot of the stuff
    >I've designed and used, when I wanted to sell it via a similar site, I
    >was appalled at how much commission they wanted just for advertising &
    >processing orders.
    >For other reasons also, I thought, start small in a small but not
    >crowded niche & who knows? :)

    Do it and do it this year. Good luck.
    David Segall, Jun 1, 2006
    #15
  16. Violet

    David Segall Guest

    "Jonathan N. Little" <> wrote:

    >David Segall wrote:
    >
    >> If "deal with orders and payments" means a shopping cart as in most
    >> commercial web sites you _cannot_ write this yourself by October.

    >
    >Elaborate on the source of this statement please.

    I don't understand your request. I am the source of this statement and
    I don't think that you are interested in my biography.

    If you want me to justify any part of the sentence let me know which
    part(s) and I will try. Actually, if it is the "most commercial web
    sites" bit I'll resile now. I'm sure that the overwhelming majority of
    turnover (excluding B2B)is generated by sites with some form of
    shopping cart but I have no evidence that it is the majority of sites.
    David Segall, Jun 1, 2006
    #16
  17. Andy Dingley <> wrote:
    > Jonathan N. Little wrote:
    >> David Segall wrote:
    >>
    >>> If "deal with orders and payments" means a shopping cart as in most
    >>> commercial web sites you _cannot_ write this yourself by October.

    >> Elaborate on the source of this statement please.

    >
    > I could offer a logical proof of this, but I find the empirical
    > evidence more convincing. People who are asking "Should I use
    > Dreamweaver to program my HTML?" do not have a good success rate at
    > delivering shopping carts a mere 4 months later. Some of them do
    > achieve it, but the results are rarely good, or secure.
    >
    > No-one should be writing shopping carts these days. Most people,
    > including most web developers, just aren't skilled enough to do it.
    > Even if you were, you'd be too valuable to waste your time on
    > re-inventing such a task. It isn't '99 any more - there are now
    > _plenty_ of off-the-shelf solutions for this, no need to build your
    > own.


    Oh, OP cannot by October, I misread the remark as it *shall be verboten
    by October*. Agree, not for a novice and if done improperly is a serious
    security risk for both vendor and customer...


    --
    Take care,

    Jonathan
    -------------------
    LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
    http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
    Jonathan N. Little, Jun 1, 2006
    #17
  18. David Segall wrote:
    > "Jonathan N. Little" <> wrote:
    >
    >> David Segall wrote:
    >>
    >>> If "deal with orders and payments" means a shopping cart as in most
    >>> commercial web sites you _cannot_ write this yourself by October.

    >> Elaborate on the source of this statement please.

    > I don't understand your request. I am the source of this statement and
    > I don't think that you are interested in my biography.


    As stated earlier, my error I misread your statement, no need for a bio.

    --
    Take care,

    Jonathan
    -------------------
    LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
    http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
    Jonathan N. Little, Jun 1, 2006
    #18
  19. Violet

    verity Guest

    Andy Dingley <> wrote:
    > Jonathan N. Little wrote:
    > > David Segall wrote:
    > >
    > > > If "deal with orders and payments" means a shopping cart as in most
    > > > commercial web sites you _cannot_ write this yourself by October.

    > >
    > > Elaborate on the source of this statement please.

    >
    > I could offer a logical proof of this, but I find the empirical
    > evidence more convincing. People who are asking "Should I use
    > Dreamweaver to program my HTML?" do not have a good success rate at
    > delivering shopping carts a mere 4 months later. Some of them do
    > achieve it, but the results are rarely good, or secure.
    >
    > No-one should be writing shopping carts these days. Most people,
    > including most web developers, just aren't skilled enough to do it.
    > Even if you were, you'd be too valuable to waste your time on
    > re-inventing such a task. It isn't '99 any more - there are now
    > _plenty_ of off-the-shelf solutions for this, no need to build your
    > own.
    >
    > To the OP, find some hosting with a decent bundled cart. Build around
    > and customise that, don't start from scratch. Expect to pay real money
    > to a real web developer to achieve this (You wouldn't do your own
    > shopfitting, would you?). Look for recommendations from here or a.w.w.
    > for both.


    I get your drift and appreciate your advice, I'll certainly reconsider
    it.
    I was a programmer years ago & a Systems Analyst, I volunteered to make
    a non-commercial site for a voluntary agency usong Frontpage & it
    suited their needs. There is more to this than me wanting to start
    another business, I want to be able to do it (for fun?) & I've had bad
    reports of what people who have paid for a site, have actually
    received.
    verity, Jun 1, 2006
    #19
  20. Violet

    dorayme Guest

    In article
    <>,
    "verity" <> wrote:

    > but I think the reall problem may be that
    > at 51,


    Nonsense, you're a spring chicken...

    --
    dorayme
    dorayme, Jun 1, 2006
    #20
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