Google Groups and netiquette

[Gunnar Hjalmarsson]

It seems like groups-beta.google.com has undergone a change which leads
people to not quote anything when replying to a message. Maybe those who
dislike when people reply without providing context should better call
Google's attention to the problem rather than blaming GG posters...

 

[A. Sinan Unur]

It seems like groups-beta.google.com has undergone a change which leads
people to not quote anything when replying to a message. Maybe those who
dislike when people reply without providing context should better call
Google's attention to the problem rather than blaming GG posters...

OK, so I finally tried it (please excuse the mailinator.com email
address, rather than the usual .invalid address I use).

To be able to quote context, one needs to click on Options -> Reply,
rather than the fancy Reply link below the message which opens an empty
textbox.

I will complain to Google Groups regarding this, but I am not sure how
seriously they will take it. They are a private company after all, and
the more they align the behavior of their interface with the
expectations of the clueless, the more users they will have.

So, at this point, wholesale killfiling of all Google Groups posts is
beginning to look like an attractive option.

Sinan.

PS: This is my first and final post from Google Groups, in case you
were wondering

 

[ioneabu]

those

OK, so I finally tried it (please excuse the mailinator.com email
address, rather than the usual .invalid address I use).

To be able to quote context, one needs to click on Options -> Reply,
rather than the fancy Reply link below the message which opens an empty
textbox.

I will complain to Google Groups regarding this, but I am not sure how
seriously they will take it. They are a private company after all, and
the more they align the behavior of their interface with the
expectations of the clueless, the more users they will have.

So, at this point, wholesale killfiling of all Google Groups posts is
beginning to look like an attractive option.

Sinan.

PS: This is my first and final post from Google Groups, in case you
were wondering

This was brought up in the past few months as a solution for us Google
posters, which you could have seen if you had first "Googled" the
topic. The senior citizens (by experience and ability, not age) of the
group may wish to killfile us, forcing those who want the most high
quality help to use other usenet servers, but I find that I can learn
from almost any post, and I do not find the volume to be too great to
sift through. I hope Google cleans up its act. I think they have
fixed part of the formatting problem at least. There was a free news
server that is no longer free since April. I don't know if there are
any other free ones besides Google at this point.

wana

 

[Gunnar Hjalmarsson]

I will complain to Google Groups regarding this,
Good!

wholesale killfiling of all Google Groups posts is beginning to
look like an attractive option.

Well, M$ encourages top posting, Google encourages no context at all...
It's not obvious to me that killfiling is the best way to deal with this
kind of dilemma.

We won't likely convince those giants that they'd better stay out of
Usenet. Accordingly, we'll probably have to endure postings from both
Newsreaders and web based forums.

Maybe it's time to revise the posting guidelines. You *can* deal with
postings without context by simply viewing messages by thread, right?

After all, all these complaints about people's non-compliance with the
format guidelines aren't very fruitful.

 

[Alan J. Flavell]

After all, all these complaints about people's non-compliance with
the format guidelines aren't very fruitful.

I'm fed up of these discussions over basic usenet netiquette, which
are entirely off-topic for this group.

Please go to the news.admin.* hierarchy for such discussions, meantime
I strongly recommend simply killfiling the offenders and NOT filling
the group up with complaints about them.

I'm not in the least interested in helping Googroups to re-form usenet
in its own image, I must say.

 

[Gunnar Hjalmarsson]

There was a free news server that is no longer free since April.

Assuming you mean news.individual.net, 10 € per year is almost "free",
isn't it?

 

[A. Sinan Unur]

Good!

Thank you. I already wrote them a nice (I think) note suggesting they
could improve the interface. We'll see if anything happens.

Well, M$ encourages top posting, Google encourages no context at
all... It's not obvious to me that killfiling is the best way to deal
with this kind of dilemma.

I don't know what *the* solution is, but this option is looking like a
convenient one for me.

We won't likely convince those giants that they'd better stay out of
Usenet. Accordingly, we'll probably have to endure postings from both
Newsreaders and web based forums.

Possibly. However, if the posters from Google Groups got in on the act,
and complained that this misfeature of their interface is making it
harder for them to get good answers, and therefore would rather switch
to a real newsreader, that should have an impact.

Maybe it's time to revise the posting guidelines. You *can* deal with
postings without context by simply viewing messages by thread, right?

That requires an exponential increase in the time it would take to
figure out what is being discussed, who is right, who suggested what etc
as the thread gets longer and longer. Why should you or I bear that
cost?

The only revision to the posting guidelines might be a note specific to
Google Groups users, but then it would require an extra burden on Tad to
keep up with whatever changes Google might make to their interface in
the future. The rule is simple, whatever software you are using, the
burden is on you to figure out how to compose an effective follow-up.

After all, all these complaints about people's non-compliance with the
format guidelines aren't very fruitful.

If people did not get away with non-compliance, then they would be
forced to learn the particular quirks of the software *they chose* to
post.

Just like teaching how to use the operating system they chose to use is
not our job, teaching them how to use their newsreader, or catering to
their ignorance cannot be our job either.

Sinan

 

[Christopher Nehren]

Assuming you mean news.individual.net, 10 € per year is almost "free",
isn't it?

I'm assuming that you mean Euro dollars because it's just garbage on my
console.

And how much would it cost to have that money sent from the US?

Besides, there's also http://dotsrc.org/usenet/ .

Best Regards,
Christopher Nehren

 

[Gunnar Hjalmarsson]

Possibly. However, if the posters from Google Groups got in on the act,
and complained that this misfeature of their interface is making it
harder for them to get good answers, and therefore would rather switch
to a real newsreader, that should have an impact.

Yep. But do you really believe it will happen? I don't.

If people did not get away with non-compliance, then they would be
forced to learn the particular quirks of the software *they chose* to
post.

Most GG posters don't know about any choice with respect to newsgroup
software. They just found a bunch of discussion groups on the web, just
like Yahoo! Groups or MSN Groups.

Just like teaching how to use the operating system they chose to use is
not our job, teaching them how to use their newsreader, or catering to
their ignorance cannot be our job either.

Basically I agree with you, Sinan, it's just that I feel kind of overcome.

And yes, Alan, this subject is indeed off topic in this group. It's just
that we are quite a few posters here who are trying to enforce the
netiquette, so the impact of e.g. Google is affecting the usefulness of
clpmisc, whether we like it or not.

 

[Gunnar Hjalmarsson]

I'm assuming that you mean Euro dollars

Euro dollars? No. Euro. Period.

 

[A. Sinan Unur]

Most GG posters don't know about any choice with respect to newsgroup
software. They just found a bunch of discussion groups on the web,
just like Yahoo! Groups or MSN Groups.

The sad part is, the original Google Groups help had a link to:

<URL: http://groups-beta.google.com/googlegroups/posting_style.html#summarize>

The new version of that document is at:

<URL: http://groups-beta.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=12348&topic=250>

The differences between the two versions of the

"Summarize what you're following up"

heading are telling.

If there were an easy way to link to the new version, I would put it in my sig,
but they don't have anchors for each heading any more.

And yes, Alan, this subject is indeed off topic in this group.

Agreed. Sorry for adding to the noise. I am going to shut up now.

Sinan

 

[Tad McClellan]

Yo Gunnar! What's up with the long lines? Sure got uglified
by the word-wrapper...

I will complain to Google Groups regarding this, but I am not sure how
seriously they will take it.

Me either, but I plan to send them a link to my very recent post
in another thread[1] too.

They are a private company after all, and
the more they align the behavior of their interface with the
expectations of the clueless, the more users they will have.

But the less benefit their users will derive because Usenet
will become less and less valuable as the answerers simply
leave in frustration.

Or, maybe they've gone Microsoftian on us, and plan to make
everybody use GG for Usenet by shear weight and volume, instead
of letting them use Real Newsreaders (with no ad revenues to Google).

What they do with posts displayed on their website is their business.
Mangle code, snip context, insert smily faces, whatever.

When Google *posts* they are sending stuff to thousands of computers
around the world, not just their own computers.

Google is acting most irresponsibly with regards to writing to Usenet.

So, at this point, wholesale killfiling of all Google Groups posts is
beginning to look like an attractive option.

See [1].

PS: This is my first and final post from Google Groups, in case you
were wondering

Phew! I was worried that we had lost you to the dark side!




[1] Message-Id: <[email protected]>

 

[Tad McClellan]

It's not obvious to me that killfiling is the best way to deal with this
kind of dilemma.

Accordingly, we'll probably have to endure postings from both
Newsreaders and web based forums.

We are free to choose what to read/ignore/respond to.

We can choose to not endure them too.

Killfiling is nothing more than automating that.

Programmers automate repetive functions, that's what we do.

Maybe it's time to revise the posting guidelines.

To be serious it needs to be:

1) in followup to a Posting Guidelines automated posting,
so everyone can find the proposed change for discussion.

2) in the form of proposed wording that can be cut/pasted
into the guidelines after discussion and consensus.

So please do that if you'd like to take a shot at it.

You *can* deal with
postings without context by simply viewing messages by thread, right?

Wrong.

The 1st message may not have arrived when the followup arrives.

The 1st message may *never* arrive.

The 1st message may have already arrived and "rolled off" of the
news server's queue making it no longer available.

There are *reasons* why the commonly accepted posting style has
become commonly accepted. They have survived a Darwinian "survival
of the fittest", what works stays, what doesn't work has atrophied
away.

After all, all these complaints about people's non-compliance with the
format guidelines aren't very fruitful.

Right, and I choose to take action to avoid seeing them.

I regret throwing some babies out with that bath water, but
the CBA for _me_ indicates wholesale killfiling.

Maybe I'll take it back out *after* GG starts acting responsibly
again.

 

[ioneabu]

Assuming you mean news.individual.net, 10 € per year is almost "free",
isn't it?

Yeah, I am going to get one of those pre-paid, throw away credit cards
to sign up with. I won't to use my check card online.

One problem with Google Groups is that you can sign up anonymously so
anyone can post anything. You get a free e-mail account with Yahoo and
use it for Google Groups. That's what I did.

wana

 

[Gunnar Hjalmarsson]

Yo Gunnar! What's up with the long lines? Sure got uglified
by the word-wrapper...

My reader is set to wrap lines at 72 chars, i.e. well within the 80
chars recommendation.

I'm also using "format=flowed". If more readers recognized that format
we'd see less of such 'uglification'.

 

[A. Sinan Unur]

Yo Gunnar! What's up with the long lines? Sure got uglified
by the word-wrapper...

Not Gunnar's fault. It must have something to do with GG, because this only
happened with my GG response to Gunnar's post.

Phew! I was worried that we had lost you to the dark side!

Nah, just had to see what it was like to post from GG.

Dunno how people work with that stuff.

Sinan.

 

[chris-usenet]

Assuming you mean news.individual.net, 10 [Euros] per year is almost

And how much would it cost to have that money sent from the US?

If you pay by VISA I would hope it should cost you an admin fee of
no more than a couple of dollars (USD). OandA.com suggests 2% for an
international VISA card transaction, so the total annual subscription
cost to you could be around 12-13 USD.

Chris

 

[Larry]

Yeah, I am going to get one of those pre-paid, throw away credit
cards

to sign up with.

Wow that, is cool... where do you get a credit card like that?

Actually, PayPal would be a better solution than that, if they accept
that.

 

[frescanah]

Awwwww... you don't *want* to?

Who cares? Do you think anyone really cares to hear you say you will
ignore all posts from Google? Just do it and don't waste everyone's
freaking time saying you're going to do it.

Or do you think you're so great that a bunch of people are going to
stop using Google Groups because they want to make sure you can read
their post and just might gift them a moment of your time to answer?

 

[Jürgen Exner]

Awwwww... you don't *want* to?

Who is "you" and what the heck are you talking about?
Please provide context when you are replying to a Usenet posting.

jue