Help Request about 4.01 Strict

[Jonathan N. Little]

with a table for layout you might have to *totally* redo
Yes, that's the main advantage that I like about CSS for layout. I
changed the colour scheme of my site the other night, I really only had
to change one file. If it had been a table, I would have had to go in
and change every page manually.

Exactly! Been a hell of a lot easier present different design proposals
to a client. Attaching a different stylesheet and the site instantly
changes wows them!

On a note about your site, this versions not bad, but your base font
color of grey is not contrasting enough on the blue background.

Either up the red and green rgb components to make it contrast more in
hue; or up the values in your blue to lighten it and reduce in your grey
to darken it. That would create more value contrast from the text and
the background.

 

[Jonathan N. Little]

Your point is a good one. I like the separation between the content and the
presentation and that "clear" and "easily understood" are now more up to how
I did it than to the HTML requirement to sprinkle commands throughout the
HTML document. Maintenance and alterations are easier when done your way.

You blow things up a bit more than I but you're probably working on a larger
screen. I'm most often on a 1024x768 laptop but try to design for 800x600
as many still use that size (as do I, at least in width, because I run with
multiple, non-maximized windows).

My comprehension of CSS is mostly limited to CSS 1 and in fact have been
using a local copy of that spec,
http://www.w3.org/Style/css1-updates/REC-CSS1-19990111.pdf, as a reference.
Some of what makes your scheme work seems to be CSS 2, a level to which I
have paid too little attention and at times actually avoided mostly because
of fear of the lack of browser support.

Use the 2.1 spec it is prettly well supported by mose browsers people
are currently, I have the html downloaded and use as reference.

I'm about 10 hours drive from my machine with IE 5.1 on it. Do you know
offhand if IE 5.1 supports the type of CSS you used to make that work?

You can download from evolt other versions of IE and run them
concurrently, I have IE 4-6 installed.

http://browsers.evolt.org/

I used to hack for NN4 support too, but if you look are your server logs
if you find more than a tenth of a percent I would be surprised.

Side note: I looked at your home page - impressive!

Thanks, I am still learning. That one still has some legacy stuf from
previous versions, our dogs site is better. I haven't moved it to its
own domain yet.

http://www.littleworksstudio.com/Amberlithe

 

[Chaddy2222]

Exactly! Been a hell of a lot easier to present different design proposals
to a client. Attaching a different stylesheet and the site instantly
changes wows them!

I reckon that it would.

On a note about your site, this versions not bad, but your base font
color of grey is not contrasting enough on the blue background.

Either up the red and green rgb components to make it contrast more in
hue; or up the values in your blue to lighten it and reduce in your grey
to darken it. That would create more value contrast from the text and
the background.

Hmmm, I changed the font colour on the body to black. It looks better
now.
Thanks for the tip.

 

[Jonathan N. Little]

Hmmm, I changed the font colour on the body to black. It looks better
now.

Much better, my eyes are fine and I had a bit of a problem with the other!

 

[Ed Mulroy]

Here is a problem with using CSS that continually bites me. Do you know how
to defend against this?

If in the HTML I move the menu list down to below the stuff on the right
then the menu stays on the left but moves down below the bottom of the stuff
on the right (IE6) and below all but the last two lines of the stuff on the
right (Firefox).

On a whim I tried 'clear: none;' statements but they had no effect.

.. Ed

 

[dorayme]

I've replaced the left table with a <ul> and altered the right table to
<table style="float: left">. It worked just as you said:
http://home.nc.rr.com/emulroy/theshoreS.htm

Thank you. I appreciate the help.

. Ed

I wish you would not top post! It makes it hard for others... I
am glad you are starting to ul and float things. What you
described is not quite what I said but you may have made some
typos: why would you float a right table left?

Ah yes, you meant float right... No, that is not what I would
suggest or did suggest. Don't float that table at all! Float the
ul left and the table not at all (or left - but this might
confuse you). The reason I say this is not that you have done
something very very bad, but simply because it is inelegant to
leave such a gap between the nav col and the content. A gap that
is at the mercy of the browser window. On my 20" monitor at full
screen it just looks silly!

 

[dorayme]

I am amazed at what you did with that page. Looking at the source is quite
a learning experience for me.

- Thank You!!

. Ed

Yeah well, Jonathan is very good.... The boy does not know it but
the rest of the folks at alt.html have him insured for a very
large amount... If he slips and/or loses his touch, we collect
big time. It is a win/win situation for most people at least.

 

[Jonathan N. Little]

Yeah well, Jonathan is very good.... The boy does not know it but
the rest of the folks at alt.html have him insured for a very
large amount... If he slips and/or loses his touch, we collect
big time. It is a win/win situation for most people at least.

I am comforted in knowing that I am looked after!

 

[dorayme]

I am comforted in knowing that I am looked after!

er... God, this embarrassing! er...Jonathan... how can we break
it to you? Best to be blunt. You slip pal and that's it! We
collect, not you. You go to the dogs, we go to Hawaii and live it
up.

(Reminds me - yeah ok... a bit loosely - of a joke where a newly
married 18th Century couple set off on their honeymoon in their
horse and wagon. The horse stumbles after a few days and the man
gets out and says to the horse, pointedly, "That's once". A few
days later, it stumbles again. "That's twice". A day later, the
poor beast stumbles yet again and the man gets off the wagon and
shoots it. His wife starts screaming: "Why did you do that? The
poor horse, what did it do to deserve that.... etc etc etc". He
turned to his new wife and said: "That's once".

There are late 20th century feminist versions but they are a
little too wild for public broadcast.)

 

[Jonathan N. Little]

Here is a problem with using CSS that continually bites me. Do you know how
to defend against this?

If in the HTML I move the menu list down to below the stuff on the right
then the menu stays on the left but moves down below the bottom of the stuff
on the right (IE6) and below all but the last two lines of the stuff on the
right (Firefox).

Please stop top posting! On some of the messages where I want to refer
to more that just your immediate message it requires considerable
editing to keep the quotes in line with the authors. It is NOT fun any
more and it is probably why other regulars have not offered to help you.
And while we are at annoyances, in case you do not know what a proper
signature is, precede them with:

[hyphen][hyphen][space][carriage return]

Any decent newsreader will automatically snip your name and anything
else that follows, wise cracks, mottos, rants and websites like my
signature...

Now to your question:

The order of the markup (the HTML part) 'may be|usually is' important
with regards to floats.

<div style="float: right">Moe</div>
<div>Larry</div>

even though Moe comes first in the markup the float makes it go to the
the right of Larry and will be aligned at the top with Larry because the
float pulls it out of the rendering flow before Larry.

+-------+ +-----+
| Larry | | Moe |
+-------+ +-----+


But if I put Moe after in the markup

<div>Larry</div>
<div style="float: right">Moe</div>
+-------+
| Larry |
+-------+ +-----+
| Moe |
+-----+
Moe will still be to the right of Larry but because Moe's markup came
after Larry, Larry is render normally and Moe float to the right but it
top will be lower and not aligned

On a whim I tried 'clear: none;' statements but they had no effect.

Applied to which element? You need to reference the spec, I keep a local
copy and reference the Property index often

http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/propidx.html

Unfortunately there are no decent books I have found to recommend, but
Googling 'float tutorial' might help. In all honesty 'floats' are
probably the most difficult properties to master and a bit obtuse in its
behavior. Not always intuitive and rough on beginners and the experienced.

 

[Jonathan N. Little]

er... God, this embarrassing! er...Jonathan... how can we break
it to you? Best to be blunt. You slip pal and that's it! We
collect, not you. You go to the dogs, we go to Hawaii and live it
up.

I've already gone to the dogs, my house is full of them. But anyway and
least someone will benefit!

(Reminds me - yeah ok... a bit loosely - of a joke where a newly
married 18th Century couple set off on their honeymoon in their
horse and wagon. The horse stumbles after a few days and the man
gets out and says to the horse, pointedly, "That's once". A few
days later, it stumbles again. "That's twice". A day later, the
poor beast stumbles yet again and the man gets off the wagon and
shoots it. His wife starts screaming: "Why did you do that? The
poor horse, what did it do to deserve that.... etc etc etc". He
turned to his new wife and said: "That's once".

There are late 20th century feminist versions but they are a
little too wild for public broadcast.)

Yeah, I've heard several variations of that one--good one though!

 

[Joe]

I have tried to implement your suggestions. It is obvious that I am missing
something as I cannot find facilities in CSS to do what I want.

I have a list on the right and wish to arrange it something like this:

wide-image
aaaaa bbbbb
ccccc
ddddd ddddd

Do you know what I do with CSS to achieve this?

Like this?
http://members.aardvark.net.au/grakat/0GKFpage/index.htm

 

[Ed Mulroy]

That page is very interesting. Thanks for the link.

.. Ed

 

[Ed Mulroy]

dorayme wrote in message

I wish you would not top post! It makes it hard for others...
I am glad you are starting to ul and float things. What you
described is not quite what I said but you may have made
some typos: why would you float a right table left?

Ah yes, you meant float right... No, that is not what I would
suggest or did suggest. Don't float that table at all! Float
the ul left and the table not at all (or left - but this might
confuse you). The reason I say this is not that you have
done something very very bad, but simply because it is
inelegant to leave such a gap between the nav col and the
content. A gap that is at the mercy of the browser window.
On my 20" monitor at full screen it just looks silly!

In deference to your request I am bottom posting this. Isn't it nice to
have to slog through what you already wrote to get to my reply?

If I remove the float spec to the table then the list appears below the
table. If I add float:left to the <ul> nothing changes.

What am I missing?

I've put the CSS into the HTML page so that it can all be seen in one lump.
http://home.nc.rr.com/emulroy/theshoreS.htm

.. Ed

 

[Jonathan N. Little]

Ed Mulroy wrote:

In deference to your request I am bottom posting this. Isn't it nice to
have to slog through what you already wrote to get to my reply?

Well we have you half way there, no if you would fix your signature....
And no one said that you should not trim you quotes as I have done here
to dorayme's remarks that I do not need to repeat...

If I remove the float spec to the table then the list appears below the
table. If I add float:left to the <ul> nothing changes.

Of course not! As I illustrated in a previous message to you:

http://message-id.net/<[email protected]>

A floated element *must precede* the normal flowed element in your
markup to affect any change to the flow of the element with normal flow!

What am I missing?

So your floated UL must appear before your 'layout' table in the HTML if
you want the float to to have any effect. Also UL are 100% wide by
default and will need a specified width. Pixels is *not* a good option
for that value because when one enlarges the font it will break your menu.

I've put the CSS into the HTML page so that it can all be seen in one lump.
http://home.nc.rr.com/emulroy/theshoreS.htm

. Ed

Yep! A period is not a signature marker, it is 2 hyphens followed by a
space and then a carriage return.

 

[Ed Mulroy]

Jonathan N. Little wrote in message

Well we have you half way there, no if you would fix your signature....
And no one said that you should not trim you quotes as I have done here
...


Of course not! As I illustrated in a previous message to you:
http://message-id.net/<[email protected]>

A floated element *must precede* the normal flowed element in your markup
to affect any change to the flow of the element with normal flow!
...

So your floated UL must appear before your 'layout' table in the HTML if
you want the float to to have any effect. Also UL are 100% wide by default
and will need a specified width. Pixels is *not* a good option for that
value because when one enlarges the font it will break your menu.
...

I seem to have overlooked that part of the spec. Thank you. I'll use that
scheme.

Yep! A period is not a signature marker, it is 2 hyphens followed by a
space and then a carriage return.

I have no signature, quote, pgp key or silly phrases for the bottom of my
messages rigged into my news reader. The period followed by a space and
'Ed' is how I end my messages. The period then space is key as on some
systems it triggers that this will begin on a new line instead of being
automatically wrapped into the previous line. It is the same as I have used
on systems since '74 so is unlikely to change. If you must consider it a
signature then consider it to be something of the manner of a dot-Ed as a
foil to Microsoft's dot-Net (not that Microsoft or .Net existed then).

.. Ed

 

[Jonathan N. Little]

I have no signature, quote, pgp key or silly phrases for the bottom of my
messages rigged into my news reader. The period followed by a space and
'Ed' is how I end my messages.

You're just one contrary SOB aren't you Ed? Well, technically a
signature is distinctive mark, characteristic, or sound (hard to do in
text)indicating identity. So your '. Ed' qualifies as a signature.
Brief, yes, but still a signature.

The period then space is key as on some
systems it triggers that this will begin on a new line instead of being
automatically wrapped into the previous line. It is the same as I have used
on systems since '74 so is unlikely to change. If you must consider it a
signature then consider it to be something of the manner of a dot-Ed as a
foil to Microsoft's dot-Net (not that Microsoft or .Net existed then).

Well in Usenet if you preceded your '. Ed' moniker with
[hyphen][hyphen][space][carriage return] then the folks who use real
newsreaders would not have to snip it when they reply to you. It is a
small gesture and a convenience. You know the old saying, "When in Rome..."?

 

[dorayme]

dorayme wrote in message

I wish you would not top post! It makes it hard for others...
I am glad you are starting to ul and float things. What you
described is not quite what I said but you may have made
some typos: why would you float a right table left?

Ah yes, you meant float right... No, that is not what I would
suggest or did suggest. Don't float that table at all! Float
the ul left and the table not at a....

In deference to your request I am bottom posting this. Isn't it nice to
have to slog through what you already wrote to get to my reply?
[/QUOTE]

Thank you but you misunderstand and this is why you have been top
posting for so long. I don't slog through anything. True, I am
just below average intelligence but three things: I did a speed
reading course once. Two, one can see from a sentence or two
(especially if one wrote it oneself) what was said (something,
btw, you can assist in by trimming). Three, I can see immediately
what you are replying to without having to scroll down and then
back up. As an engineer (no matter Electrical, there are smallest
circuit paths) you will understand smallest paths: to scroll down
and see what it is you are replying to in order to better
understand what you are saying, I scroll. I then scroll back to
read you and find myself at the part I read before. I am going
fowrard, back and forward again. The pint of thgis pleasant rave
(I always like to start the day with one) is this: you are doing
something more than being gracious - yes, this is recognised and
appreciated - but doing something right and proper and true and
at one with the deep heart of the universe (Hi SP! I'm off again!)

If I remove the float spec to the table then the list appears below the
table. If I add float:left to the <ul> nothing changes.

What am I missing?

I've put the CSS into the HTML page so that it can all be seen in one lump.
http://home.nc.rr.com/emulroy/theshoreS.htm

If you do this one simple thing, you will see it happen: Put the
list first in the HTML. I am sure old Jonathan said things about
the importance of order in these matters in some thread or other
yesterday... Anyway, here is a case of its importance.

 

[dorayme]

I have no signature... silly phrases

Have you seriously considered the implications of not having one?
I don't have one and look at the result? A lot of silliness in
the body of my posts instead. Learn from my mistakes.

 

[Ed Mulroy]

... You're just one contrary SOB aren't you Ed? ...

I have been messaging over computer networks posting many messages daily for
more than 20 years except for one stretch of three weeks and seven
individual days. All messages are done in the same way (with the exception
of twice when I bottom posted as a courtesy to you and to one other man on
here). With all of that nobody but you has ever objected to my signature.

... the folks who use real newsreaders ...

As far as I know none of Tapcis, Outlook Express or XanaNews looks for or
does anything with a pair of dashes. The header to your message suggests
that you are using an AOL based reader - glass houses and stones Johathan.

.. Ed