HTML-Windows question

[Wÿrm]

But you also have to admit, that, your views (as well as mine) are just
one point of view. There are others.

ofcourse everyone have own view. But point is that why do you want PREVENT
user having own view if they want or want not open new window, by making
that choice for them?

In simple words.

BEFORE you make choice for user, they have TWO options, open in new window
or not. But after you in your infinite wisdom think just because YOU feel
like popping up new window, they do not have two options only one. Why do
you want take that option away from user?

What scares you so much in giving users right to make up their own minds how
to do things or how to browse web?

 

[Alex]

If I change all the _front to _blank then it works as it should.

But _BLANK reuses the same window (at least it does in IE6, the error
correction in other browsers may differ).

So it is case sesnsitive.

_BLANK - http://steve.pugh.net/test/target1.html
_blank - http://steve.pugh.net/test/target2.html

Steve

Steve, thanks. I knew it was possible. Also, I had always assumed
that html was case-insensitive. This will keep more visitors on my
site, even after they surf on.

Alex

 

[Toby A Inkster]

I find it more irritating to FORCE me
to right click and open a new window than the NICE sites that do it for
me automatically.

You don't need to do that. Most browsers let you open a new window with a
single (middle) click rather than wrestling with context menus.

 

[Steve Pugh]

Steve, thanks. I knew it was possible. Also, I had always assumed
that html was case-insensitive.

Element and attribute names are case insensitive. Attribute values
vary on a case by case basis.

This will keep more visitors on my site, even after they surf on.

Unlikely.

Steve

 

[Whitecrest]

<snip> Nope, Bit I know when I want to have a new window pop up.
so that "qualifies" you make decision for USER that he/she needs NEW window
ONLY, instead of giving them choice to use same window, or get new window?

Yes, it is my site, it qualifies me to do what ever the heck I want,
REGARDLESS of how you feel about it.

What it is in user's freedom to make own decisions that SCARES you so much
that you want give them only ONE option instead of two?

Remember you already told me they were too dumb to close a window. One
can only assume if they are that stupid, then they don't know how to use
the back button either.

it is not about "clicks" that pisses people off....

None of this pissed anyone off, but a few anal people in this forum.
(and their stupid "sets suck each other off and pretend we are important
by writing a FAQ that everyone needs to follow") The real world doesn't
give a damn, only a few of you making a big stink about it because you
think that every page on the web should be assessable to everyone.
Sorry, that will (and should) never happen.

All people do not se PC's
to browse net.

So, I should not be able to create a page that caters to anyone else,
just because you know someone that likes to surf with a PDA. Why do I
have to change the way I want to present something just because you
can't see it? EVEN though MILLIONS of others are enjoying it.

There are palms, webtv's mobilephones...
boring...

If you feel you want people open new windows, TELL THEM HOW TO DO IT!

It would not fit in with the decor.

 

[Whitecrest]

ofcourse everyone have own view. But point is that why do you want PREVENT
user having own view if they want or want not open new window, by making
that choice for them?

No the point is, no matter WHAT the reason I want to open a new window,
I can do it. REGARDLESS if you can se it or not. Wake up, every web
page does not have to work on every browser. That is OK.

In simple words.
BEFORE you make choice for user...

Everything you do on the web makes a choice for the user. and you know
what. I think it is ok for me to choose for the user. REMEMBER they are
too stupid to know any better. Thats what you say.

What scares you so much in giving users right to make up their own minds how
to do things or how to browse web?

doesn't scare me, it is my page, I can present it any way I want. It
scare you top think that someone is not following your stupid made up
rules.

 

[Whitecrest]

You don't need to do that. Most browsers let you open a new window with a
single (middle) click rather than wrestling with context menus.

I have a Mac, there is no middle button, and I have a PC and there is no
middle button. But that is not the point. The point is that if I feel
that like I want the link on my page to open in a new browser window,
then I have every right to FORCE you to open a new window. If you don't
like it, then go somewhere else. And I personally think the only people
that give a shit about this (and a few other things) live in this
forum.

See, I totally disagree with the premise that every page on the web
should be assessable to all no matter how you view the web. Because I
(and millions of others) rightfully disagree with, the rest of the
argument is moot because we will are starting from two different view
points.

 

[DU]

Spartanicus wrote in message ...



I can see your point, but in my experience very few *common* users (especially new ones) know how to
*open* in a new window and sometimes even when you repeatedly tell them they still forget.

I still think it's much simpler on a "Links" page to have all the links open in a new window.

I strongly disagree with you on this. Microsoft, Netscape and Opera
browser software manufacturers and several usability studies have proven
(yes, proven!) that several browser instances confused the users. You
may want to have a close look at this page (sorry, it has an annoying
banner ad on the left... this was added recently by my webhost ... but
you can remove and read)

Popup windows and Netscape 7: interactive demos:
Open a link in a new window: when and how can that setting affect my
surfing?
http://www10.brinkster.com/doctorunclear/Netscape7/Popup/PopupAndNetscape7.html#OpenLinkNewWindow

http://www10.brinkster.com/doctorun...opupAndNetscape7.html#ExcerptsRenownedSources
Excerpts from world renowned sources

DU

 

[DU]

Have you considered that they may not want to?




Trying to force your preferences onto others again? (I hope your not
suggesting that you get site feedback from users asking how they should
open new windows)

Then use a browser which will force, impose, veto YOUR preferences (over
the author's) regarding new window either via:
- context menu right click
- user.js file like Mozilla-based browsers

user_pref("browser.block.target_new_window", true);
in any/all Mozilla 1.3+ browser.

Open a link in a new window: when and how can that setting affect my
surfing?
http://www10.brinkster.com/doctorunclear/Netscape7/Popup/PopupAndNetscape7.html#OpenLinkNewWindow

DU

 

[DU]

I seriously doubt anyone but the people in this forum are anal enough to
really give a damn either way.

The people behind the making of W3C HTML 4.01 recommendation did care
about this issue:

Target semantics in HTML 4.01
"If any target attribute refers to an unknown frame F, the user agent
should create a new window and frame, assign the name F to the frame,
and load the resource designated by the element in the new frame.
User agents may provide users with a mechanism to override the target
attribute."
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/present/frames.html#h-16.3.2

Not too mention Mozilla.org, Netscape corp. people as well.

DU

 

[DU]

Spartanicus wrote in message



New users don't know any difference, but pointing out that 'opening in a new window' still leaves
the whole page of Search engine data in the background, is universally welcome by users as they
don't have to keep hitting the 'back' button lots of times.

One click on the 'close' button does the trick of getting back to the original page.

That is if they know there is a main window and a secondary window. When
the new window is maximized, a majority of people do not realize this.

Not trying to *force* - people do forget - Don't you ever recall your early days on a PC?

**If** the javascript coding of requested popups was done correctly and
**if** usability guidelines regarding secondary window were applied,
then I would agree with you entirely. But in my opinion, more 90% of all
sites using requested popups (secondary windows) do not. I even say that
more than 90% of all javascript cut-N-paste having a popup generator, a
popup maker webpage are spreading incorrect code, counter-user,
anti-accessible popup code.
E.g.: resorting to the "javascript:" pseudo-protocol in href attribute
will fool the browsers and will neutralize the contextmenu right-click
options for the user. That's just one reason why the "javascript:"
pseudo-protocol is often denounced in comp.lang.javascript newsgroup.

When done properly, coding the target attribute and window.open() call
do not impose choice onto the user but merely propose one.

Yep exactly, so the 'opening in a new window' is for the *benefit* of others, especially the newbies
or infrequent users. *We* are all relative experts here so *we* know what to do, *they* don't so
easily get lost if the new information replaces the original website they were browsing :~)

I definitively don't agree with you: I've been helping out in many
threads in netscape.netscape7.windows newsgroup in the past 2 years and
I very often noticed the opposite (not too mention many bugzilla
bugfiles on popups). Even in this newsgroup and in comp.lang.javascript,
I noticed often and repeatedly how confused web developers were
regarding the coding of window.open and target.

DU

 

[Whitecrest]

Popup windows and Netscape 7: interactive demos:
http://www10.brinkster.com/doctorun...opupAndNetscape7.html#ExcerptsRenownedSources
Excerpts from world renowned sources

From the link:
"Only open a new window in direct response to a user action, and think
about how to make it clear to the user that their action will open a
separate window."

I absolutely agree. Notice it does not say NEVER do it. I think (and
so does the author) that there are times when it is completely
appropriate to open a new window.

 

[Whitecrest]

The people behind the making of W3C HTML 4.01 recommendation did care
about this issue:
Target semantics in HTML 4.01
"If any target attribute refers to an unknown frame F, the user agent
should create a new window and frame, assign the name F to the frame,
and load the resource designated by the element in the new frame.
User agents may provide users with a mechanism to override the target
attribute."
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/present/frames.html#h-16.3.2

I am missing the connection here.

 

[Spartanicus]

Then use a browser which will force, impose, veto YOUR preferences (over
the author's) regarding new window

The fact that some users are able to negate this does not excuse bad
authoring.

 

[DU]

So it is ok for YOU to want your page to render a certain way, but not
for me to want it to render a certain way....




But I gave them the option of clicking the little X to close the window.




And no one in the world would have it any other way.... Wake up and
take a bite off the reality donut...

The WEB is BIG, different things turn on different people.

Then demand that web developers code accordingly their html and
javascript code. When properly done, a link still leave 3 options to
visitors:
- open the referenced resource in the same window
- open open the referenced resource in another window (in background or
not)
- open the referenced resource in a tab (in background or not)
When coded properly, a webpage will notify the visitor (via an icon for
instance or a cursor or via the title attribute) in which way/where/how
(in a new window or reused window if applicable) clicking a link will
load the referenced resource. An aware and informed visitor will always
be more receptive.

I personally

like links opening new windows. I find it more irritating to FORCE me
to right click and open a new window than the NICE sites that do it for
me automatically.

You can even customize M-meleon 0.8 to do so (automatically or via
right-click) for you in background or not - on top of that - if you're
in love with new unnamed windows. You have at least 10 choices with
K-meleon 0.8; 4 via the right-click and the other 4 are automatic.

Open in New Window
Open in Background Window
Open in New Layer (tab)
Open in New Background Layer (tab)

and you even have all the Mozilla 1.5 user.js hidden possibilities on
top of all this.

DU

 

[Whitecrest]

That is if they know there is a main window and a secondary window. When
the new window is maximized, a majority of people do not realize this.

I find it interesting how each side of this argument at one time or
another has used both the "user is too stupid" and "no user is that
stupid " arguments to support their ideas.

I definitively don't agree with you...

Thats fine that you don't agree. The web is a very big place, and
nothing is right for everyone. But you have to accept that there is
another line of thought other than yours. The web is just like
everything else in the world. Different people like different things.

I personally like (and promote) new windows for links external to the
original site, and using the back button for links internal to the site.
Thats what I like, that what I built. (unless the person paying had
different likes)

 

[Wÿrm]

No the point is, no matter WHAT the reason I want to open a new window,
I can do it. REGARDLESS if you can se it or not. Wake up, every web
page does not have to work on every browser. That is OK.

I Haven't said that every web page SHOULD work every browser you simpleton.
I haven't even bene posting in this thread really before, just noticed this
whole stupid arguemtn thing so said some things I think about things.

So if you are so BLIND you can't even in newsgroup make difference betwene
different persons you really must have lost your marbles dude...

I do not have anything against using javascript, flash etc as long as they
are used wisely and not extremely dumbly like some sites are doing.

doesn't scare me, it is my page, I can present it any way I want. It
scare you top think that someone is not following your stupid made up
rules.

I haven't made ANY rules you dumb ****. I have nothing to DO with guy who
have said to you that users are too dumb to CLOSE window. Seems that your
only purpose here is to TROLL...

PLONK! welcome to killfile you ******...

 

[Wÿrm]

Yes, it is my site, it qualifies me to do what ever the heck I want,

REGARDLESS of how you feel about it.

yes, it is. but why do you want deliberately TAKE options to make own
decisions away from users?

Remember you already told me they were too dumb to close a window. One
can only assume if they are that stupid, then they don't know how to use
the back button either.

I haven't said jack shit about users being too dumb to close a window. I am
not same guy, but i guess you are sitting on tiop of your only seeing eye
and incapable of notice difference...

So, I should not be able to create a page that caters to anyone else,
just because you know someone that likes to surf with a PDA. Why do I
have to change the way I want to present something just because you
can't see it? EVEN though MILLIONS of others are enjoying it.

your site would not get millions hits even if you'd have all bill gates
money and you'd try bribe users to visit it

 

[Whitecrest]

PLONK! welcome to killfile you ******...

LOL

 

[DU]

Yes, it is my site, it qualifies me to do what ever the heck I want,
REGARDLESS of how you feel about it.




Remember you already told me they were too dumb to close a window. One
can only assume if they are that stupid, then they don't know how to use
the back button either.

If you code properly (by indicating, notificating that clicking a link
will open in a new unnamed window), then users will be confused a lot
less by a new window. Stop saying users are dumb, stupid, etc... Many
sites have had popunders...

If you code properly, then you will propose your preferred choice (a new
unnamed window) and will not prevent other options (open in the same
window; open in a tab background or not).

None of this pissed anyone off, but a few anal people in this forum.
(and their stupid "sets suck each other off and pretend we are important
by writing a FAQ that everyone needs to follow") The real world doesn't
give a damn, only a few of you making a big stink about it because you
think that every page on the web should be assessable to everyone.
Sorry, that will (and should) never happen.




So, I should not be able to create a page that caters to anyone else,
just because you know someone that likes to surf with a PDA. Why do I
have to change the way I want to present something just because you
can't see it? EVEN though MILLIONS of others are enjoying it.

WebTV will open your target="_blank". WebTV will append
window.open(strUrl, strWindowName, [windowFeatures]) at the end of the
current document.

Again, if you code correctly, accordingly, then W3C web standards
compliant browsers and web-aware devices will not let the user down. The
content will still be accessible.

DU