It does not look good for Target. Web Accessibility news

T

Travis Newbury

So are you saying it is NOT faster to develop in HTML/CSS/PHP? Or are
you just blowing hot air?

I am saying since he is not a flash developer his statement is
irrelevant. Answer this, who can run a 5K faster? You or me?
The fact is - whether you like it or not - this is a lousy application
for flash. And every one of those reasons you dismiss so handily show
how closed minded you really are.

I never said it was not a lousy application for Flash. (I do think it
looks nice though)
I'm not saying flash isn't worthwhile. But unlike you, I don't think
it's applicable to everything - and certainly not here.

Please find where I have EVER said Flash is good for everything. I
have repeated time and time again (Ask dorayme) that you should only
use it when it is appropriate.
 
C

Chaddy2222

I am saying since he is not a flash developer his statement is
irrelevant. Answer this, who can run a 5K faster? You or me?
I think my point was that it would be better from a useability point
of view if the site was done useing HTML and CSS a long with server
side scripting as it would be more accessible etc.
Take a shit load of codeing though, infact I would have probably just
used a pre-fad CMS and slaped the content in. But I am an info /
content type of bloke really.
I never said it was not a lousy application for Flash. (I do think it
looks nice though)
Well yes, we gathered that. BTW you didn't say it was that bad at
first eather (actually come to think about it you took the marketing
angle, which is obviously not what the site owners did.
You can tell that the designer was given too much control as it's
looks great but is a bloated pile of shite, much like the majority of
Flash sites.
BTW I like YouTube and am considering useing some Flash based stuff
for audio content.
 
J

Jonathan N. Little

Travis said:
We have already established your connection sucks and you hate flash.
I personally think you are just crying sour grapes and think you are
pissed that we can all enjoy Flash just fine. You just don't want
anyone else to enjoy something you are not capable of enjoying. (I am
being facetious)

No. It is just bad application. Use flash for what flash can do best,
this is *not* one of those applications. All flash does for this site is
*needlessly* make the site both slower and reduce user accessibility!
Bad design strategy. Although I am sure it was easy to impress the boys
in the front office with it, just as dumb as "we use xhtml because it's
advanced..." sells up front too...
 
T

Travis Newbury

No. It is just bad application. Use flash for what flash can do best,
this is *not* one of those applications.

What (in your opinion) does flash do best?
 
S

SpaceGirl

Chaddy2222 said:
That's f***ing jygantic!.
My XHTML docs with a lot of images would equal about 10KB I reckon.
</goes and checks>.
No, actually I have a layout for a photo gallery page with about 10
thumbnails that ways in at about 2KB!
now try and do that with your fancy bandwith eating Flash
applications!

Bet it's not. Given the 1Kb IP overhead for every single HTTP request...
With Flash you get two requests (depending how it is built) - one for
the UI, one for the data. In a regular site, every single image or bit
of loaded content is also generating a huge overhead. On a 1Kb GIF, you
are looking at as much as 1.5Kb worth of data that goes with it that
your browser discards. Another thing; if the page containing the Flash
is refreshed, your browser just sends one request back to the server to
check if the file has updated. Do that with your page, and every single
file is checked against the server... again, even if nothing has changed
a the server, you're looking at stacks of traffic.

This gets even better: Flash supports binary sockets, so you can scrap
all the HTTP traffic as Flash makes a direct connection with the socket
provider at the back end... and then the data gets compressed!

You also have to think about what Flash does inside it's 27Kb (in this
case) - once the initial classes are compiled inside of your SWF, reuse
of that code, extending of the classes etc etc will barely increase the
file size at all. You could double the number of their pages in that
site with virtual no increase in file size. Or add stacks of new
functionality. And so on. Could you do this on your page? No. Every new
page means another load of HTML, GIFs and CSS that has to be sent from
the server eating up all your bandwidth :) Caching helps of course, but
even then you are sending traffic.

So, it's very easy to dis Flash when you really don't understand how it
works. It's nowhere near as straight forwards as you seem to think.

--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

http://www.northleithmill.com

-.-

Kammy has a new home: http://www.bitesizedjapan.com
 
M

Mark Goodge

And as time goes on, if that seems to be a problem with this site,
and they start losing money because of the designer, they will either
have to change or go out of business. I seriously doubt either will
happen.

"This site" being http://www.mortgagenews2.com, for the benefit of
anyone jumping into the thread at this point.

Anyway, let's see how popular it is using some common freely-available
metrics:

Google Pagerank: 0
Compete Rank: no data
Alexa Rank: 1,697,203
Netcraft ranking: 5,098,230

Those figures are crap. A personal website might be that low; any
commercial site getting that little traffic is virtually dead.
However, that may not matter much if the income stream is good.

To see what they're charging for advertising, I registered with the
site. That was a bit of a problem in itself: despite the fact that I
have a UK keyboard their interface is mapping the keypresses directly
to a US key map and hence when I typed certain characters on my
keyboard something different showed up on the screen. Having got past
that little hurdle, I managed to register and log in. In order to
check prices, I had to actually create an advertising campaign -
there's no price list. For the 768x60 banner ad slot, the price I was
then quoted was $795.00 for 1000 impressions. The cheapest price I
could find was $595.00 for 1000 impressions of a "News Visualization"
banner (294x50 pixels). If they can sell them all (about ten slots per
page), then that's a potential income of around $7000 per 1000 page
views. That's a lot of money for a website. Using their current Alexa
rank as a basis for extrapolation, 1000 page views is going to take
them about a month to achieve, so if all that advertising is sold then
that's a very good monthly income. But that "if" is an important one,
and it's a very big one. Those prices are waaaaaay OTT, even for a
financial services website - I can't see that many advertisers paying
them that much. So, while it may look good, it's built on a flawed
business model as well as a flawed design model.

Or, to put it another way, if the site is earning anywhere near that
amount, think how much more it could earn with a more accessible
design! Given that kind of brief, and that kind of content, I'd expect
to achieve something closer to a thousand page views a day, rather
than a thousand a month.

Incidentally, if you click on any of the news stories on the front
page of that site, what happens is that it opens another website
framed within its own Flash framework. That's usually prohibited by
most website Ts&Cs, and has been held to be a breach of copyright in
previous lawsuits. I wonder if the site's operators have considered
that? Maybe that's why they're happy with an inaccessible design and
low visitor numbers - trying to sneak below the radar of the sites
they're ripping off.

Mark
 
J

Jerry Stuckle

SpaceGirl said:
Nah, that's just dumb. If they designed the web site without CSS, it'd
be the same. They'd have to add it.

Just as you can apply CSS to HTML documents, you can apply CSS documents
to Flash content.

No, they I'm saying they have to add accessibility for the visually
impaired to this site. But if they use CSS/HTML, the accessibility is
there.


--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
(e-mail address removed)
==================
 
J

Jerry Stuckle

Travis said:
I am saying since he is not a flash developer his statement is
irrelevant. Answer this, who can run a 5K faster? You or me?

No, it's not irrelevant. And you didn't answer my question. So, from
the hot air you're blowing, my only assumption is he is correct.
I never said it was not a lousy application for Flash. (I do think it
looks nice though)

CSS/HTML can look nice, also.
Please find where I have EVER said Flash is good for everything. I
have repeated time and time again (Ask dorayme) that you should only
use it when it is appropriate.



--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
(e-mail address removed)
==================
 
T

Travis Newbury

Animated graphics. Interactive maps and sideshows. Entertainment
fritterware. Elements with a page...

To that list I add:
Any web video
Any simulation
Any image/audio/video synchronization
Any time you need the application screen to be exactly the same on
every system (GREAT for intranet web applications such as the LMS I
built for Siemens)
Banner ads
Anything that needs to be interactive (Filling in a form is not what I
classify as this type of interactive)
and of course, games and simple eye-candy

What it's not good for:
Complete websites
text based information site (like, but not limited to sites like
google)
menus/navigation
 
S

SpaceGirl

Travis said:
To that list I add:
Any web video
Any simulation
Any image/audio/video synchronization
Any time you need the application screen to be exactly the same on
every system (GREAT for intranet web applications such as the LMS I
built for Siemens)
Banner ads
Anything that needs to be interactive (Filling in a form is not what I
classify as this type of interactive)
and of course, games and simple eye-candy

What it's not good for:
Complete websites
text based information site (like, but not limited to sites like
google)
menus/navigation

I disagree, and this is exactly what I was arguing. Flash COULD be used
for ANY of those... it depends on context - meaning the audience, the
content etc...

--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

http://www.northleithmill.com

-.-

Kammy has a new home: http://www.bitesizedjapan.com
 
T

Travis Newbury

No, it's not irrelevant. And you didn't answer my question. So, from
the hot air you're blowing, my only assumption is he is correct.

Of course it's irrelevant. He has no clue how to create a Flash so
how could he possibly be able to compare the time to create a site
using both methods?

It is exactly the same as answering my question who runs a 5K faster,
you or me. You can not answer that because you have no idea how fast
I can run.
CSS/HTML can look nice, also.

So what. Again, irrelevant. "Is that Blond pretty? Redheads can be
pretty too...
 
S

SpaceGirl

Mark said:
"This site" being http://www.mortgagenews2.com, for the benefit of
anyone jumping into the thread at this point.

Anyway, let's see how popular it is using some common freely-available
metrics:

Google Pagerank: 0
Compete Rank: no data
Alexa Rank: 1,697,203
Netcraft ranking: 5,098,230

Those figures are crap. A personal website might be that low; any
commercial site getting that little traffic is virtually dead.
However, that may not matter much if the income stream is good.

To see what they're charging for advertising, I registered with the
site. That was a bit of a problem in itself: despite the fact that I
have a UK keyboard their interface is mapping the keypresses directly
to a US key map and hence when I typed certain characters on my
keyboard something different showed up on the screen.

That's kinda weird... Flash doesn't contain any language stuff. I think
your machine is buggered, or they really have done something funky
inside that SWF (it's not default behavior).


I agree with the rest of your comments though, but it's not the way
ranking works. It's a combination of inbound links + content. Get enough
inbound links, make sure the content is published as an alternative
stream (RSS, or an alternative metatag), or provide a text version of
the content on the side. Remember earlier I was talking about Flash just
being one UI of many applicable to site - well these guys got that wrong
in this case.
Incidentally, if you click on any of the news stories on the front
page of that site, what happens is that it opens another website
framed within its own Flash framework. That's usually prohibited by
most website Ts&Cs, and has been held to be a breach of copyright in
previous lawsuits. I wonder if the site's operators have considered
that? Maybe that's why they're happy with an inaccessible design and
low visitor numbers - trying to sneak below the radar of the sites
they're ripping off.

Grey area, but I do sort of agree. It's pretty bad practice -- and
wouldn't work in any of MY sites... I have breakout code in all my sites
to prevent anything we work on being re-framed by a 3rd party.


--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

http://www.northleithmill.com

-.-

Kammy has a new home: http://www.bitesizedjapan.com
 
S

SpaceGirl

Travis said:
Of course it's irrelevant. He has no clue how to create a Flash so
how could he possibly be able to compare the time to create a site
using both methods?

It is exactly the same as answering my question who runs a 5K faster,
you or me. You can not answer that because you have no idea how fast
I can run.


So what. Again, irrelevant. "Is that Blond pretty? Redheads can be
pretty too...

C'mon guys, keep this light :) This is an interesting discussion so
far. Yes of course CSS+HTML sites can look pretty... so long as you
stick with the page metaphor. It rapidly gets complicated if you try to
do anything a little different. Which is also fine; that's where Flash
sits perfectly.

--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

http://www.northleithmill.com

-.-

Kammy has a new home: http://www.bitesizedjapan.com
 
D

dorayme

Travis Newbury said:
Will you marry me?

And have your babies, grow old(er) together, sort though the 4x6
prints of life... aw shucks, I am such a sucker for a love
story...

Look, I don't want to rain on your parade but be prepared for
your kids to *choose* dialup, block all but text, be sighted but
*still* go for a voice reader in an act of rebellion...
 

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