It does not look good for Target. Web Accessibility news

[dorayme]

There were popups?

So, Travis, I have two theories about this, one boring and the
other more pleasing to me. The pleasing one:

You, Travis Newbury, were rolling about the floor, hands and feet
punching and kicking the air, your torso in paroxysms of such
helpless laughter at the jokes, that you did not notice the pop
ups.

 

[dorayme]

Judges are also human, and thus potentially swayed by many things.

....or by nothing when they fall asleep. Recent case in Australia.
On appeal it was judged that the judge was not required to be
awake, only to be present. I kid you not.

 

[Jerry Stuckle]

Are you meaning to deny outright that I grew 120 lbs of wonderful
tomatoes in a Melbourne backyard in the 1960s? My sence of gramer
and ligoc tells me you are so denying this. Now, where is that
Officer White, i have new harsh instructions for him...

I don't doubt that at all.

Back in the late 70's, I tried my hand at planting some tomatoes. I
read up on them, and got six of the scrawniest plants you've ever seen
at the nursery. I planted right by the garage (white siding, west side,
full sun), watered, fertilized and staked them like the experts said,
and waited.

Then I started to get tomatoes. And more tomatoes. And more tomatoes.

I was getting an average of almost a dozen tomatoes off of these six
sick-looking sprouts every day! I couldn't eat them all. I couldn't
give them away to my families. My neighbors wouldn't talk to me... My
coworkers would run when they saw me carrying a brown bag... My clients
didn't (I was in hardware maintenance for IBM at the time) didn't want
to see me...

Yes, I can easily believe you got 120 lbs of tomatoes in your back yard!


--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
(e-mail address removed)
==================

 

[dorayme]

I don't doubt that at all.

Back in the late 70's, I tried my hand at planting some tomatoes. I
read up on them, and got six of the scrawniest plants you've ever seen
at the nursery. I planted right by the garage (white siding, west side,
full sun), watered, fertilized and staked them like the experts said,
and waited.

Then I started to get tomatoes. And more tomatoes. And more tomatoes.

I was getting an average of almost a dozen tomatoes off of these six
sick-looking sprouts every day! I couldn't eat them all. I couldn't
give them away to my families. My neighbors wouldn't talk to me... My
coworkers would run when they saw me carrying a brown bag... My clients
didn't (I was in hardware maintenance for IBM at the time) didn't want
to see me...

Yes, I can easily believe you got 120 lbs of tomatoes in your back yard!

I learnt tomato pickling, natural tomato soup, tomato chutney, I
even considered political activism where I could throw the ripe
ones in stormy meetings...

(Someone in Sydney here once threw one and landed it on the
Governer General. I realise this last little tid-bit is pretty
OT...)

 

[SpaceGirl]

Maybe, depends on how you do it and what you are selling. Flash won't
sell everything. Content is important.

Yep.


--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

http://www.northleithmill.com

-.-

Kammy has a new home: http://www.bitesizedjapan.com

 

[SpaceGirl]

The point is it has limited practical application. I would hate to
browse eBay in a virtual 3-d shopping buddy regardless of the connection
speed. Flash is just not the "bee's knees" for everything.

Of course. But 3D is just one thing you can do in Flash, so whatever UI
you care to imagine you can try out. Perhaps you'll discover something
that'll work better. To be honest I can't think of any compelling
argument to replace a regular site layout with one that looks the same,
but done in Flash. It would probably make the user experience worse
rather than better.

--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

http://www.northleithmill.com

-.-

Kammy has a new home: http://www.bitesizedjapan.com

 

[SpaceGirl]

It is not a great example of a real page that has text that
resizes, a menu and so on...

This can be done too.

It is an example of a snippet of
something. I can imagine the interactive business being useful
for various purposes.

Something different. I wouldn't want to use this for say... a shopping
site. Imagine a kids site though?

Can I employ you to make one of these things to depict some of
the killfiles I have been in? But I want a menu so that the very
many interested folk can go on a tour of a whole lot of them. I
can give you detailed descriptions from my memory, how I had
things nicely arranged in some, how I was tortured in others, the
screams I heard from other chambers (you do sound too?)

LOL yes.

--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

http://www.northleithmill.com

-.-

Kammy has a new home: http://www.bitesizedjapan.com

 

[Chris F.A. Johnson]

On 2007-10-08, dorayme wrote:
....

You, Travis Newbury, were rolling about the floor, hands and feet
punching and kicking the air, your torso in paroxysms of such
helpless laughter at the jokes, that you did not notice the pop
ups.

What pop-ups?

 

[Ben C]

Jerry Stuckle wrote: [...]

There is a formal process to managing projects, just like there is for a
lot of things. And it works. But when you've never used this process,
you can come up with all kinds of rationalizations as to why it won't work.

This is all very nice, but what about RAD? Or Agile? And how does this
apply to small enclosed languages like AS3.

"Agile" is a "methodology" or family of methodologies, distinguished
mainly by being trendy. I suspect they would accuse Jerry Stuckle of
being a old-fashioned "Waterfall".

The fact that the both sides of the argument are represented can be a
good thing politically though.

"RAD" just means using a visual IDE instead of a proper^H^H^H^H^H^H
editor.

The choice of language, methodology, and programming environment are all
independent. You can do up-front design and program in C, or
just-in-time Agile design (or whatever they call it) and program in C++.
You can use whatever programming environment you like for either (in
general, although some languages are quite closely tied to a particular
programming environment).

 

[dorayme]

On 2007-10-08, dorayme wrote:
...

What pop-ups?

You too eh? I am delighted you both enjoyed the jokes so much.
There is nothing, I trust, that I am misunderstanding here.

 

[Travis Newbury]

No choice at the moment. I am not alone...

Not my problem. Since I work with audio or video 90% of the time, I
already know you can't see what I have to offer anyway, so I (and
100% of my clients) are completely unconcerned with the fact that you
and others that do not have broadband can not see what we are
offering.

And so a potential sale goes elsewhere while you sleep.

Trying to please 100% of your potential customers is a complete waste
of time. Corporate clients know this as they deal with it on a daily
basis with marketing. They understand it is a balance. If your site,
no matter how it is created, wins more than it loses, then you have
made the correct choice.

 

[Travis Newbury]

Maybe, depends on how you do it and what you are selling. Flash won't
sell everything. Content is important.

First, flash is both content as well as a way to present content.
Second, my mantra "it depends"...

If plain Jane gains more than it loses then use plain Jane. If Flash
gains more than it loses, then use Flash, if Ajax gains more than it
loses use Ajax, if technology "X" gains more than it loses, then use
technology "X".

I laugh at close minded developers (or people in general) that
completely write off a technology or possible solution, either because
they don't understand what it dose, don't realize the potential, or
just blindly follow those that do one of those things. And it happens
ALL the time in this group.

 

[Travis Newbury]

The point is it has limited practical application. I would hate to
browse eBay in a virtual 3-d shopping buddy regardless of the connection
speed. Flash is just not the "bee's knees" for everything.

Duh... I don't believe SpaceGirl or I have ever claimed anything
different. I believe both of us are laughing at those that just
blindly write off a hugely populartechnology just because "someone"
may not / can not see it.

 

[Travis Newbury]

We live in a multimedia world. The WWW is changing every day, and we're
moving further away from the flat page metaphor for describing
information. Flash is just one technology that enables this.

Web sites are about communicating. There is no one "official" way to do
this. Something delivered via the WWW can be in whatever form works best
for your audience. I wouldn't, for example, dream of advocating Flash to
replace Google.com - it's perfectly possible (for the most) to do it,
but it's the wrong medium / wrong tool for the job.

Will you marry me?

 

[Travis Newbury]

You, Travis Newbury, were rolling about the floor, hands and feet
punching and kicking the air, your torso in paroxysms of such
helpless laughter at the jokes, that you did not notice the pop
ups.

Or I fell asleep...

 

[Chaddy2222]

Ohhhh! I see your point. Sorry dialup-mindset. Sometimes I *wish* a page
loaded in 30 seconds!

http://www.mortgagenews2.com
It's from the same company that SpaceGirl gave the previous example
from. It's a shocker though, I mean it should have been done in HTML +
CSS for style + PHP / some other server side language for the user
account stuff.

 

[Travis Newbury]

http://www.mortgagenews2.com
It's from the same company that SpaceGirl gave the previous example
from. It's a shocker though, I mean it should have been done in HTML +
CSS for style + PHP / some other server side language for the user
account stuff.

A "Shocker" Hardly.

Should have? We can not tell because we do not know the audience well
enough to make that decision.

Could have, absolutely. The company and developers need to understand
what their visitors want. You don't know, there may have been a
calling for this.

 

[Jerry Stuckle]

Jerry Stuckle wrote: [...]

There is a formal process to managing projects, just like there is for a
lot of things. And it works. But when you've never used this process,
you can come up with all kinds of rationalizations as to why it won't work.

This is all very nice, but what about RAD? Or Agile? And how does this
apply to small enclosed languages like AS3.

"Agile" is a "methodology" or family of methodologies, distinguished
mainly by being trendy. I suspect they would accuse Jerry Stuckle of
being a old-fashioned "Waterfall".

Yep, and I'd love to see it applied successfully to a two or three year
project with > 100 programmers on it. It's new, and it's trendy. But I
haven't seen where it's "better" yet. It's simply a methodology which
skips the up front work. Well loved by programmers who don't like to
document.

The fact that the both sides of the argument are represented can be a
good thing politically though.

"RAD" just means using a visual IDE instead of a proper^H^H^H^H^H^H
editor.

To some extent, yes. But in the better RAD products, you have a lot of
stuff behind them, also.

For instance, the old IBM VisualAge for C++ had a lot of classes behind
it for all kinds of things. You could build an entire application and
only have to write a very few lines of code. Not quite plug and play,
but close to it.

The down side if it was it was that the resulting application was very
bloated and slow.

They also had (still have?) a VisualAge for Java product which was
actually pretty decent. But they priced it too high for it to catch on.

The choice of language, methodology, and programming environment are all
independent. You can do up-front design and program in C, or
just-in-time Agile design (or whatever they call it) and program in C++.
You can use whatever programming environment you like for either (in
general, although some languages are quite closely tied to a particular
programming environment).

Within limits, very true. But some fit together better than others.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
(e-mail address removed)
==================

 

[Chaddy2222]

A "Shocker" Hardly.

Hmmm, well it does look quite good i'll give it that.

Should have? We can not tell because we do not know the audience well
enough to make that decision.

Could have, absolutely. The company and developers need to understand
what their visitors want. You don't know, there may have been a
calling for this.

True, I don't have much of a problem with the overall look of the site
but it just seams to have been poorly implemented.
An example of this is the use of frames, a very old technology and the
fact that it's not accessible by search engions or my screen reader,
which was the entire point of what I wrote.
But, maybe they don't care about SE ranking or being sued for that
matter.
It's an information site, what they have done is a nice example of
what you can do visually with Flash but frankly it's overkill as far
as I am concerned.

 

[SpaceGirl]

http://www.mortgagenews2.com
It's from the same company that SpaceGirl gave the previous example
from. It's a shocker though, I mean it should have been done in HTML +
CSS for style + PHP / some other server side language for the user
account stuff.

Why should it have? Because you don't like Flash?