Java and avoiding software piracy?

A

Andreas Leitgeb

Twisted said:
The highly-selective message-blocking.

Most of your postings I saw reposted were over 1000 lines long,
so this *might* be the selecetion-criterion. It sounds quite
plausible to me that some nntp-admin might reroute largish posts,
since the probability of them being either text-encoded binary-posts
or spam is quite high.
 
R

Roedy Green

And in practise, how often does that actually happen? Here's a hint:
in all the years I've been using WinXP I've not had an MS update break
any third-party software seriously

I have Vista.
help in most programs stopped working.
Topstyle stopped entirely.
TweakDun stopped working
The low level access to CMOS, the floppy and the hard disk in turned
off to DOS emulation.
4NT blacks the screen if I make an error.
 
L

Lasse Reichstein Nielsen

Joe Attardi said:
You don't find it ironic that the GPL, which is intended for free
software, freedom, etc., is actually the most restrictive of the
mainstream open source licenses? It restricts in many ways what you
can do with software derived from a GPLed work.

How can that be called a "free software" license?

Easy when the people writing the license also defines what "free
software" is.

It's software that, among other things, cannot ever be used
"non-freely". That is a significant restriction, and hence it gives
one of the the most restrictive licenses. And perhaps one of the
simpler ones too: No matter how you use the GPL'ed software, you
release your own software under the same license, you are safe.

As with any software, you can choose to use it or not depending on
whether you like the requirements attached to the license.

/L
 
J

Joe Attardi

It's software that, among other things, cannot ever be used
"non-freely". That is a significant restriction, and hence it gives
one of the the most restrictive licenses.
So how can that be construed as free? Freedom means freedom from
restrictions. It contradicts itself.
 
K

kaldrenon

Nebulous/Twisted:

Not that you really need any more people disagreeing with you, but
I've got some things I'd like to point out. Let me preface it by
saying that this is my opinion, I am not telling you that you are
wrong, and I do not intend to insult you. I am merely voicing my own
opinion in the hopes that you might consider another perspective.

You've talked a lot here and elsewhere about how and why software
should be free. That because software is infinitely reproduce-able it
should be available to all who want it, etc, etc. In an ideal world,
where cost and debt and compensation weren't issues, where everyone
had what they needed and all work/innovation was purely for fun, your
ideology would work. In fact, I support it thoroughly. Help us figure
out how to solve problems of hunger, dependency, greed, and corruption
in order to eliminate a need for trade/barter/business and then the
"free software for everybody no matter what!" mentality will be
something I support 100%.

But not only is it impractical in the current business environment,
think about this:

What does "freedom" mean to you? Freedom to have whatever you want no
matter what it may cost the people who made it? Freedom to do whatever
you want with things even if their creators ask nicely that you not do
those things? Hm...that sounds sticky to me.

I think earlier you made an analogy about potatoes, right? How it's
not wrong to replant the eyes of a potato you buy, even though that
means you'll never have to go back to the farmer who sold you the
potato? You're right in that analogy, but think about this: what if
that farmer only sells potatoes to people who sign a contract agreeing
not to replant? He's willing to take that risk because maybe his
potatoes are just that ridiculously delicious that he trusts he'll
still sell them, and a no-replanting contract will help him assure
that he'll stay in business.

Sure, potato contracts are pretty strange (and even the phrase "potato
contract" is amusing. Go ahead, say it out loud a few times), but the
same thing applies to software licenses and all kinds of other
contracts. People have the right, the permission, the FREEDOM, to ask
their customers to adhere to a number of regulation or restrictions in
order to use a product. Sure, companies abuse this right by imposing
restrictions that are unnatural, counterproductive, or downright
corrupt. But they have that right, and consumers have a choice between
adhering to the restrictions or not signing the contract.

That's the thing about freedom. If you value your freedom, the best
way you can demonstrate it is by respecting the freedoms of others.

It is one thing to disagree with the established popular ways of doing
things. I happen to agree with you in that you say there are a lot of
things wrong with the way things are done in modern business. However,
you seem to be insisting that your perspective is a) the only right
one, b) infallible, and c) mandatory. I suspect that even if more
people agreed with your perspective, your attitude would still turn
people off. Civil discourse is more helpful and enjoyable when people
present their thoughts and ideas as opinions, not as hard-and-fast
insistences. (I intend this paragraph as constructive criticism.)

I suspect people wouldn't call you a troll so much if you presented
your ideas more agreeably.

-Andrew

In my life, the most valuable learning experiences have come shortly
after I find myself saying "I was wrong."
 
O

Oliver Wong

Roedy Green said:
With renting, we are agreeing the software will work for a given
period of time. The agreement can be cancelled, and the program made
to stop working. During that time I have access to all the bug fixes.
My costs are laid out in advance.

As I said before, the most outrageous practice is to make me pay for
an upgrade to get a bug fixed. That is like making you pay extra for
a defective light bulb.

Apparently, Microsoft wants to get into the software-renting business,
with Windows 7 (the successor to Vista):
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070722-2010-a-windows-7-odyssey.html

- Oliver
 
L

Lasse Reichstein Nielsen

Joe Attardi said:
So how can that be construed as free? Freedom means freedom from
restrictions.

Freedom means a lot of things. Gratis, available, libre, etc.

"Free software" is a composite term with a specific meaning. It
doesn't have to be related to freedom in exactly the way you expect it
to.
It contradicts itself.

It's defined the way it's defined. You can disagree with the choice of
of words, but the defined meaning of "free software", as it is being
used by the Free Software Foundation, is not self contradicting.

It's about keeping the *software* free. Not keeping the users free
from restrictions.

/L - prefers BSD
 
L

Lew

kaldrenon said:
I think earlier you made an analogy about potatoes, right? How it's
not wrong to replant the eyes of a potato you buy, even though that
means you'll never have to go back to the farmer who sold you the
potato? You're right in that analogy, but think about this: what if
that farmer only sells potatoes to people who sign a contract agreeing
not to replant? He's willing to take that risk because maybe his
potatoes are just that ridiculously delicious that he trusts he'll
still sell them, and a no-replanting contract will help him assure
that he'll stay in business.

Poinsettias and certain roses have this restriction.
 
T

Twisted

On Jul 24, 12:27 am, (e-mail address removed) wrote:> The very fact that you even tried to "invalidate" me, and then
proceeded to attack me by calling me "wrong".

[insult deleted] Calling somebody wrong is not an attack.

Calling a person a name is an attack. Arguing against the person,
accusing them of something, or in any other way making it about the
person and in a negative fashion is an attack. You could say "I don't
believe you" if you don't believe something I said. There's no need to
use "you" language and make it personal, but you have a bad habit of
doing that. Maybe we all do.

[Another insult deleted]

Please go away.
 
T

Twisted

On Jul 24, 12:32 am, (e-mail address removed) wrote:> No, I am convinced that YOU are out to get me, you and one or two

Being hostile towards somebody is not evidence of "illegal hacking" or
censorship.

No, but someone who has shown hostility towards me is a likelier
suspect than someone who has not, given something else that IS
evidence of hacking and censorship.
Feel free to try again and procure actual evidence that
this is taking place.

I've already posted a whole load of evidence; basically, for it to
have been anything BUT a deliberate and targeted attack requires a
million-to-one coincidence to have occurred. I guess you still haven't
read all of the postings in this thread. You really ought to shut up
until you have, or maybe just plain shut up.
How do you provide evidence that someone is _not_ hacking Google?

For starters, you could provide a plausible alternative theory.
Obviously, to qualify as "plausible" it CANNOT require a highly
unlikely coincidence or contrivance to be true.
May I suggest you
shut down the computer, slowly back away, and go get some sunshine.

Or what? You'll hack it too? Please excuse me for a few minutes while
I report you to the relevant authorities...

[snip content-free blather]
[nothing left]
 
T

Twisted

On Jul 24, 12:27 am, (e-mail address removed) wrote:> The very fact that you even tried to "invalidate" me, and then
proceeded to attack me by calling me "wrong".

[insult deleted] Calling somebody wrong is not an attack.

Calling a person a name is an attack. Arguing against the person,
accusing them of something, or in any other way making it about the
person and in a negative fashion is an attack. You could say "I don't
believe you" if you don't believe something I said. There's no need to
use "you" language and make it personal, but you have a bad habit of
doing that. Maybe we all do.

[Another insult deleted]

Please go away.
 
T

Twisted

Too bad there are no real world examples to back this up for you.

That is not true. There are several musicians, at minimum. It's also
worth noting that for quite a while the Grateful Dead encouraged home
taping and private copying, and made the bulk of their money from
concerts but also got plenty from CD sales.
You are the one who started with the name calling.

Not true.
But, you have to admit, I do pretty good for someone who doesn't
use a spell checker (haven't bothered to hook it up to vi yet).

Well ... vi ... that explains a lot ... :p
Explain to me how this business model works for Red Hat? Have you ever
used their software? I just told you, they charge $300 per seat for
a standard Workstation license! If you don't pay this, then you are
*not* abiding by their business model!

That includes a support contract. You can also just use Fedora Core
and other open source stuff for free. You can build a system identical
to and totally interoperable with one built using their Workstation
license without paying a red cent and just not get bundled support.
Oh, I agree with this. Congress should have to spend half the year
renewing old laws. Those that don't get renewed fall off the books
after, say, a decade, because they are apparently not important.

It wouldn't be half the year, except maybe the first year because so
much legislative cruft and deadwood has been permitted to accumulate.
Subsequently there's be a much smaller corpus of mostly-sensible law
to sift through, and only the fifth that's over four years old (given
a five year deadline).
Oh, wow, you consider making illegal copies of software and other
media "civil disobedience"!

I consider nonviolent and non-property-crime but technically illegal
acts, where one does not agree with the law, to be civil disobedience
more or less by definition. (Remove the first pair of restrictions and
it is just "rioting"; bring on the tear gas grenades!)
I agree with your position on machinery. You buy something, like a
video game console, and the DMCA says you can not modify it to run,
say, Linux. It is illegal to circumvent the manufacturer's measures
that have been put in place to use the game console in a way other than
how it was intended. That is absurd.

Don't you see that this logically extends to any telling me what I can
and cannot do with my machine and the bits and bytes stored on it?
At the same time, I think the manufacturers should be allowed to make
their hardware as difficult to circumvent as they can (which they are
already allowed to do). But yea, the user should be able to hack it
as much as they want.

Why not extend this? Software authors are free to try using technical
measures to make copying difficult, but there's no legal crutch for
them to fall back on. They gain a short-term monopoly if it holds up
for a while before being cracked or reverse engineered or their
authentication server spoofed or whatever. But there's no state-
granted monopoly. Smells like free enterprise -- isn't it refreshing!
Users can choose to not use software with licenses they don't agree with.

No they can't! There is often no acceptable-license substitute for a
given piece of software which is completely substitutable for the
original.

[insult deleted]
Funny thing is, he isn't the zealot you are, and he isn't making his
money off Linux. He makes his living off a real job.

Starting the Linux ball rolling proved his bonafides. Another way
writing software can pay off even if it does not do so by the selling
of copies and restricting of other people making copies.
Have you ever read what Linus has actually written regarding copyright?
You might be a little surprised.

Probably views it as a necessary evil; I'm increasingly convinced that
it is not necessary, though it certainly is evil.

The GPL does use it to ensure source code is made available for
derivative works; I'm not aware of any other quasi-good use for it.
But hopefully lining my pockets!

At everyone else's expense. Even though you could provide it for a
fraction of that price and still turn a profit. What a greedy SOB you
are. I guess your shareholders require you to be. But the law should
be a restraining, not an enabling, factor of such greed. There is
supposed to be an inherent tension between market forces + regulation
-- PRO-COMPETITIVE regulation -- and the corporate desire for obscene
profits, such that the corporations turn profits but have razor-thin
margins and people can have a thing even if they have barely enough
money to cover the incremental costs of making one more of it and
shipping it to them, so long as they do have at least that amount.
 
T

Twisted

I didn't miss this part. It is irrelevant

I'll be the judge of that.
I am not sure why you expect dedicated quality service and support for
a FREE SERVICE. Think about that for a sec.

Because I am able to pay their asking price for the service, therefore
they should not cease providing it without cause. The fact that their
asking price happens to be zero is not relevant here, only that I pay
it.
The burden of proof is on the accuser. Sorry.

I've already furnished plenty of evidence. The only alternative
hypothesis to explain the non-propagating posts is a glitch with
million-to-one odds against it ever happening.

[snip further insultage, directed in equal measures at RMS and I]

Find something constructive to do, please, for the love of Christ!
 
T

Twisted

[insult deleted]

If you don't have anything nice to say about someone, DON'T SAY
ANYTHING AT ALL!
 
T

Twisted

I know.. I do have a bad habit to keep taking his [insult deleted]. But I
keep seeing all this [insult deleted] and it's
really irritating. I would killfile the [insult deleted], but
unfortunately Google Groups does not have that ability yet. Maybe if I
whine about it in here long enough, a Google engineer will hear my
pleas and magically implement it for me.

Then may I kindly suggest that you put this in your hosts file:
127.0.0.1 groups.google.com

and never be bothered by the misbehavior of GG or its lack of features
ever again? (If this results in the rest of us never again being
bothered by your incessant attacki postings and general rudeness as a
side effect, well, so much the better then.)
 
T

Twisted

It is you. You have been outed many moons ago in
rec.games.roguelike.angband, when you had one of your hissy fits there
and people could no longer stand you. We have read about your past.
The own FAQ you had. The squirrel incident. Your University. The
"conspiracy" at your University (did you know that K.M.M. is back in
Ottawa from the US for some time now? Should we giver her a call?).
Your interest in Fractals. We had to read it all.

We have enough of your hissy fits. We don't like your death threats.
You are unconvincible. You insult us, you insult our intelligence.
Particular your argumentation is laughable.

The simple thing is, we don't like you. Please go away.

What in the flying **** are you babbling on about? Squirrels?
Fractals? (I had to look that one up -- some sort of higher
mathematics apparently) K.M.M.? (The only name that might have those
initials here is the guy posting as "kurt".) FAQ? (There's nothing
about any of these lunatic ravings of yours in the cljp FAQ.) And why
are you mentioning an irrelevant newsgroup (I'm not aware of any
Angband variant being implemented in Java -- only C and the odd Lisp
or Tcl port -- so it's not relevant here either.)

Either start making sense or start shutting up. :p
 
N

nebulous99

oh, this one is still worth replying despite my previous decision
not to reply anymore ...

According to your own ideas, they should hire programmers to
program one that they then will give everyone for free.

That's spending research money on reinventing the wheel when you could
just ideally get a wheel for only the cost of making one wheel. How
stupid and inefficient.
 
N

nebulous99

You have every right to request whatever you like, be it
free beer, diminishing of copyright laws, or even that
the sky be checkerboard-colored.

Of course, one of those things would cost someone something without
recompense and one of those things is simply impractical. That leaves
the middle one...
 
N

nebulous99

Most of your postings I saw reposted were over 1000 lines long,
so this *might* be the selecetion-criterion. It sounds quite
plausible to me that some nntp-admin might reroute largish posts,
since the probability of them being either text-encoded binary-posts
or spam is quite high.

They weren't rerouted, or they'd still have arrived eventually. And
the two posts in question were 900-and-some-odd lines long, which
comes in under your threshold.

Also, there's no stated Google policy about any stupid arbitrary
pointless post length limits, only stupid arbitrary pointless posts-
per-day limits.
 

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