language popularity survey

Discussion in 'C++' started by Lynn McGuire, Sep 22, 2011.

  1. Lynn McGuire

    Lynn McGuire Guest

    Lynn McGuire, Sep 22, 2011
    #1
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  2. Lynn McGuire

    BGB Guest

    On 9/22/2011 8:28 AM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    > In the growing struggle of software language popularity,
    > C++ is currently #3 and dropping (according to these
    > people):
    > http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
    >
    > Java is #1, C is #2. C# is #4 and rising rapidly.
    > Objective C is #6 and also rising.
    >


    partial possible reasons:
    there are many plain C codebases around, and "in the wild" C++ codebases
    (solely or dominantly) are not run into nearly as often IME (even then,
    they can be roughly divided into 3 major camps: C-like, Java-like, and
    "traditional" C++).

    Java + C is fairly popular, but Java + C++ is not as much.
    partial possible reason: neither JNI nor JNA provide good direct access
    to C++, and infact it may work as a hindrance in this case (though
    likely more psychological than practical).

    although GCC's CNI is a good idea (allowing a more direct mapping
    between Java and C++ classes), it has not been embraced by the great
    Sun/Oracle ("Sunacle", as some have called it).

    actually, one can wonder if they just don't care about providing a nice
    native interface, or if they were trying to actively and deliberately
    make it painful to discourage people from using it?...


    Objective-C has popularity mostly as it is Apples' major language of
    choice, and Apple has gotten a lot more popular in recent years.


    also possible:
    C++, Java, and C#, compete mostly for a partly overlapping target area:
    front-end application development.

    C++ is not as popular in systems-programming or back-end libraries
    (which are more of C's area), although C++ does have an advantage that
    Java and C# are mostly unusable in these areas (write kernel or drivers
    in Java == no).

    however, in terms of ease of use, and providing expansive standardized
    library functionality, Java and C# have an advantage (for example, there
    is no direct/standardized C++ analogue of AWT/Swing or WinForms or WPF).


    not that it is all bad news though, as C and C++ are still the
    top-players in areas where performance is important, as, despite some
    claims, C# and Java have not generally beaten C or C++ WRT either
    performance or memory footprint (meaning an advantage in areas where
    this is important).


    or such...
    BGB, Sep 22, 2011
    #2
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  3. Lynn McGuire

    Lynn McGuire Guest

    On 9/22/2011 1:53 PM, BGB wrote:
    > On 9/22/2011 8:28 AM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    >> In the growing struggle of software language popularity,
    >> C++ is currently #3 and dropping (according to these
    >> people):
    >> http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
    >>
    >> Java is #1, C is #2. C# is #4 and rising rapidly.
    >> Objective C is #6 and also rising.
    >>

    >
    > partial possible reasons:
    > there are many plain C codebases around, and "in the wild" C++ codebases (solely or dominantly) are not run into nearly as often IME
    > (even then, they can be roughly divided into 3 major camps: C-like, Java-like, and "traditional" C++).
    >
    > Java + C is fairly popular, but Java + C++ is not as much.
    > partial possible reason: neither JNI nor JNA provide good direct access to C++, and infact it may work as a hindrance in this case
    > (though likely more psychological than practical).
    >
    > although GCC's CNI is a good idea (allowing a more direct mapping between Java and C++ classes), it has not been embraced by the
    > great Sun/Oracle ("Sunacle", as some have called it).
    >
    > actually, one can wonder if they just don't care about providing a nice native interface, or if they were trying to actively and
    > deliberately make it painful to discourage people from using it?...
    >
    >
    > Objective-C has popularity mostly as it is Apples' major language of choice, and Apple has gotten a lot more popular in recent years.
    >
    >
    > also possible:
    > C++, Java, and C#, compete mostly for a partly overlapping target area: front-end application development.
    >
    > C++ is not as popular in systems-programming or back-end libraries (which are more of C's area), although C++ does have an advantage
    > that Java and C# are mostly unusable in these areas (write kernel or drivers in Java == no).
    >
    > however, in terms of ease of use, and providing expansive standardized library functionality, Java and C# have an advantage (for
    > example, there is no direct/standardized C++ analogue of AWT/Swing or WinForms or WPF).
    >
    >
    > not that it is all bad news though, as C and C++ are still the top-players in areas where performance is important, as, despite some
    > claims, C# and Java have not generally beaten C or C++ WRT either performance or memory footprint (meaning an advantage in areas
    > where this is important).
    >
    >
    > or such...


    C for embedded systems programming is big, very big.

    Lynn
    Lynn McGuire, Sep 22, 2011
    #3
  4. Lynn McGuire

    Ian Collins Guest

    On 09/23/11 03:28 AM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    > In the growing struggle of software language popularity,


    Which struggle would that be?


    --
    Ian Collins
    Ian Collins, Sep 22, 2011
    #4
  5. Lynn McGuire

    Balog Pal Guest

    >> In the growing struggle of software language popularity,
    >
    > Which struggle would that be?


    Yeah. And we're still facing the olm mosrepresentation of measured "web
    noise" as "popularity"...

    Btw with C++11 just accepted we can expect a peak of noise very soon that
    will make C++ look way more popular -- while in reality I expect at least a
    few years before real support become stable in compilers, and even more for
    real-life projects to build on the new stuff.
    Balog Pal, Sep 22, 2011
    #5
  6. On 09/23/11 Lynn McGuire wrote:
    > > In the growing struggle of software language popularity,


    On 22 Sep., Ian Collins wrote:
    > Which struggle would that be?


    Oh, come on. Even if you neglect the fact that many software
    manufacturers actually earn their living with compilers, and their
    success is tightly coupled to the popularity of their compiler, you'll
    have to concede that the popularity of a language also affects the
    programmer: If we have a great language (for example Ada95), but no
    one uses it, you'll most probably stop using it as well. The
    popularity of a language is a major factor for the ecosystem that
    evolves around a language in the form of libraries, newsgroups, and so
    on (not to forget that even the compilers for the language will
    improve, if it is an open source compiler).

    Personally, I like C++ most, even though I'd like to see some features
    in C++ that will never be added. I don't worry if C++ drops from place
    two or three to place ten or eleven, but I'd reconsider if C++ dropped
    to place fifty.

    Regards,
    Stuart
    Stuart Redmann, Sep 23, 2011
    #6
  7. Lynn McGuire

    Jorgen Grahn Guest

    On Fri, 2011-09-23, Stuart Redmann wrote:
    > On 09/23/11 Lynn McGuire wrote:
    >> > In the growing struggle of software language popularity,

    >
    > On 22 Sep., Ian Collins wrote:
    >> Which struggle would that be?

    >
    > Oh, come on. Even if you neglect the fact that many software
    > manufacturers actually earn their living with compilers, and their
    > success is tightly coupled to the popularity of their compiler, you'll
    > have to concede that the popularity of a language also affects the
    > programmer: If we have a great language (for example Ada95), but no
    > one uses it, you'll most probably stop using it as well. The
    > popularity of a language is a major factor for the ecosystem that
    > evolves around a language in the form of libraries, newsgroups, and so
    > on (not to forget that even the compilers for the language will
    > improve, if it is an open source compiler).


    Agree.

    > Personally, I like C++ most, even though I'd like to see some features
    > in C++ that will never be added. I don't worry if C++ drops from place
    > two or three to place ten or eleven, but I'd reconsider if C++ dropped
    > to place fifty.


    It depends. In my world (some small subsection of the larger
    embedded/Unix world) all that matters is if C++ is seen as a serious
    alternative to C, or if someone in power decides that some toy
    language/proprietary 4GL environment is the future.

    Most of the others on any top list are not applicable.

    /Jorgen

    --
    // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
    \X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
    Jorgen Grahn, Sep 23, 2011
    #7
  8. Lynn McGuire

    Rui Maciel Guest

    Lynn McGuire wrote:

    > In the growing struggle of software language popularity,
    > C++ is currently #3 and dropping (according to these
    > people):
    > http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
    >
    > Java is #1, C is #2. C# is #4 and rising rapidly.
    > Objective C is #6 and also rising.


    This index is meaningless. According to them[1], their index is calculated
    the following way:

    <quote>
    Ratings

    The ratings are calculated by counting hits of the most popular search
    engines.
    </quote>

    The search queries are ran in the following sites:
    <quote>
    Based on these criteria currently the following search engines are used:

    Google: 32%
    Blogger: 32%
    Wikipedia: 16%
    YouTube: 10%
    Yahoo!: 3%
    Bing: 3%
    Baidu: 3%
    </blockquote>


    So, you are effectively trying to claim that some language is "more popular"
    than other by counting the number of youtube videos which might pop out in a
    search.

    So, as it is easy to see, this TIOBE index is bullshit.


    Rui Maciel

    [1]
    http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/tpci_definition.htm
    Rui Maciel, Sep 23, 2011
    #8
  9. Lynn McGuire

    Rui Maciel Guest

    Stuart Redmann wrote:

    > Oh, come on. Even if you neglect the fact that many software
    > manufacturers actually earn their living with compilers, and their
    > success is tightly coupled to the popularity of their compiler, you'll
    > have to concede that the popularity of a language also affects the
    > programmer: If we have a great language (for example Ada95), but no
    > one uses it, you'll most probably stop using it as well.


    I find it doubtful that a ongoing project would suddenly be forced to a
    complete rewrite due to a change in a dubious popularity chart. One thing
    that comes to mind is the demand for COBOL programmers and the time-honoured
    use of Fortran in highly technical fields.

    On the other hand, the perceived notion of popularity might impact projects
    which are just starting off, but for non-technical (and therefore wrong)
    reasons. If a large pool of software developers who are skilled with a
    specific programming language is available then recruiters are able to exert
    some economic pressure (taking advantage of an oversupply of programmers) in
    order to pay their prospective developers less. Nevertheless, scrapping the
    bottom of the proverbial barrel may look good in a human-resource
    perspective (that is, a blind perspective) but it tend to bring a lot of
    problems and efficiency issues, not to mention those caused by the quality
    of the code, when the project goes on and becomes increasingly more complex.


    > The
    > popularity of a language is a major factor for the ecosystem that
    > evolves around a language in the form of libraries, newsgroups, and so
    > on (not to forget that even the compilers for the language will
    > improve, if it is an open source compiler).


    Some people actually care if a specific tool is the right tool for the job,
    and this tends to be the decisive factor in spite of whatever correlation it
    might have with any random perception of popularity.


    > Personally, I like C++ most, even though I'd like to see some features
    > in C++ that will never be added. I don't worry if C++ drops from place
    > two or three to place ten or eleven, but I'd reconsider if C++ dropped
    > to place fifty.


    Well, that would be a stupid thing to do. A tool doesn't suddenly become
    better/worse or more/less powerful through a change in a popularity index.
    And considering this TIOBE bullshit, and how it relies on search hits
    (unfiltered?) on youtube to determine which language is more popular than
    others, this would mean that your technical decisions would depend on the
    number of videos any random person uploaded to the site. And just imagine
    if your technical decisions were influenced by the number of "language X
    sucks ass" videos some 12 year old kid posted on youtube.


    Rui Maciel
    Rui Maciel, Sep 23, 2011
    #9
  10. Lynn McGuire

    DeMarcus Guest

    On 09/22/2011 05:28 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    > In the growing struggle of software language popularity,
    > C++ is currently #3 and dropping (according to these
    > people):
    > http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
    >
    > Java is #1, C is #2. C# is #4 and rising rapidly.
    > Objective C is #6 and also rising.
    >
    > Lynn


    Objective C is only used in iMac and iPhone, right?
    DeMarcus, Sep 23, 2011
    #10
  11. Stuart Redmann wrote:
    > > Oh, come on. Even if you neglect the fact that many software
    > > manufacturers actually earn their living with compilers, and their
    > > success is tightly coupled to the popularity of their compiler, you'll
    > > have to concede that the popularity of a language also affects the
    > > programmer: If we have a great language (for example Ada95), but no
    > > one uses it, you'll most probably stop using it as well.


    Rui Maciel wrote:
    > I find it doubtful that a ongoing project would suddenly be forced to a
    > complete rewrite due to a change in a dubious popularity chart. One thing
    > that comes to mind is the demand for COBOL programmers and the time-
    > honoured use of Fortran in highly technical fields.


    Agreed. One of the largest (and probably most important) projects in
    our company is written in Fortran, and there is little to no desire to
    switch this project to a different language.

    However, the Fortran language seems to lag behind: Other programming
    languages have a richer set of features (like C or C++) and a better
    "ecosystem" (see my earlier posting). Of course, we could simply
    enrich the Fortran language with OO, generics and whatever is standard
    for a 4GL.

    On the other hand we could just transform our Fortran projects to C or
    C++. Apparently Fortran thrives because of its rich libraries, but
    they have already been ported to other programming languages.

    It's a tough decision.

    Rui Maciel wrote:
    > On the other hand, the perceived notion of popularity might
    > impact projects which are just starting off, but for non-technical
    > (and therefore wrong) reasons. If a large pool of software developers
    > who are skilled with a specific programming language is available
    > then recruiters are able to exert some economic pressure (taking
    > advantage of an oversupply of programmers) in order to pay their
    > prospective developers less. Nevertheless, scrapping the
    > bottom of the proverbial barrel may look good in a human-resource
    > perspective (that is, a blind perspective) but it tend to bring a lot of
    > problems and efficiency issues, not to mention those caused by the quality
    > of the code, when the project goes on and becomes increasingly
    > more complex.



    It is a bad fact that recruiters may have that level of influence. I'm
    afraid there is little we can do about this ;-)

    [snip]

    Regards,
    Stuart
    Stuart Redmann, Sep 23, 2011
    #11
  12. Lynn McGuire

    Miles Bader Guest

    DeMarcus <> writes:
    >> Java is #1, C is #2. C# is #4 and rising rapidly.
    >> Objective C is #6 and also rising.

    >
    > Objective C is only used in iMac and iPhone, right?


    (Hmm, it's just "Mac", right?)

    Those seem to be the main users of objective C, though of course there
    are objective C compilers / libraries / etc on other systems
    (e.g. GNUstep is a free software version of the NeXTStep [etc]
    libraries that later became Cocoa on the mac)

    -Miles

    --
    Future, n. That period of time in which our affairs prosper, our friends
    are true and our happiness is assured.
    Miles Bader, Sep 23, 2011
    #12
  13. Lynn McGuire

    Qi Guest

    On 2011-9-23 20:12, DeMarcus wrote:
    >
    > Objective C is only used in iMac and iPhone, right?


    Objective C is becoming popular due to the "fashion"
    iPhone and iPad.
    When iPhone and iPad fade out, OC will be forgotten again.

    Usually beginner may choose OC because they may think
    it's the only choice.

    IMO C++ is quite good supported by XCode and easier
    to develop iOS apps, with very little OC to interact
    with the SDK.


    --
    WQ
    Qi, Sep 25, 2011
    #13
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