market comparisons of JSP vs. others?

Discussion in 'Java' started by Digital Puer, Jul 25, 2003.

  1. Digital Puer

    Digital Puer Guest

    does anyone know of a site showing market penetration comparisons
    of server-side scripting technologies? I'm particularly looking
    for the market shares of JSP, ASP, Cold Fusion, PHP, CGI, and
    any others.

    Thank you for any information.
    Digital Puer, Jul 25, 2003
    #1
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  2. Digital Puer

    asj Guest

    Digital Puer wrote:
    >
    > does anyone know of a site showing market penetration comparisons
    > of server-side scripting technologies? I'm particularly looking
    > for the market shares of JSP, ASP, Cold Fusion, PHP, CGI, and
    > any others.
    >
    > Thank you for any information.



    pretty hard to track that i would think, but the popularity would
    probably be:

    PHP > ASP > Cold Fusion/JSP > CGI

    i did read awhiles back that PHP is growing much faster than anything
    else and had surpassed the popularity of asp.
    asj, Jul 25, 2003
    #2
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  3. Digital Puer

    Roger Guest

    Virtualy impossible!

    Firstly serious sites do as much as possible to hide the detail of thier
    sites, fequently making them appear as somthing else. For example, if
    using php they may give the files asp extensions and tell the php
    processor to process files with .asp extensions. In reality most
    apparent 'clues' are not obligatory and may be reconfigured.

    Secondly, it is very common to use multiple technologies. There is no
    reason why multiple modules may not be activated in a server, and a
    document may contain different scripts and xml tags which get elaborated
    by different modules as it goes througth the works.

    Usually this occurs on things like fully laden portal pages were
    elements may come from different work groups, or where a particular
    facility is not practical with the framework which is generally preffered.

    It is possible possible for dynamic content to serve up additional
    dynamic content, providing you can control the evaluation order! More
    commonly this will be server side modding client side script however.

    Another approach to doing surveys is the marketing companies who survey
    corporations, but of course they are surveying market sectors in a
    manner that interests thier subscribers, which can be extremely
    misleading if used casually. Certianly, vendors like to say they are
    e.g. widely placed in the fortune 100, but that also means they could
    well be very unsuitable tools for smaller outfits!

    Next problem.....If you ask people what they use they are likely to
    respond with the platform they have invested most in. Very often that is
    NOT the system that is actually getting most of the work done, a
    situation very widespread in the IT industry as a whole!

    You could look at "activity". For example, newsgroup activity can
    indicate that a solution is in widespread use, but penalises solutions
    which are easier to use and deply. Support sites and eZines are often
    taken as an indicator as to the popularity of a solution. Unfortunately
    most major vendors know this and have followed Microsofts lead in
    spending a significant part od thier R&D budgets in "evangelism", aka
    spin that is primarily orientated towards generating large quantities of
    articles and material in trade mags and eZines.

    Just to throw a last spanner into the works, there is a lot of "Open"
    stuff out there that is not commercially "marketed" or promoted and yet
    they are often market leaders, such as Apache.

    Oh, and another note......how do you judge market penetration? Number of
    servers? That means the Littleville Gardening club server on a domestic
    ADSL line with an enthusiastic student web smith counts the same as a
    Google front end. What about domains? In terms of volume the bulk of
    domains live on domain hosting servers which althogth offering active
    servises hardly ever actually use, and the individual domains probably
    only get a few hits each week. It has long been noted that 99% of
    internet traffic travels througth 1% of the domains!

    So, lets be more sophisticated, lets make a rating based on server
    traffic? OK, that could be valid for comparing the routers, and maybe
    the web server, but not so much for dynamic page generation. Archive and
    download sites have large traffic but the server side scripting tends to
    be limited to a few menial tasks such as logins and site searches, a
    far cry from top-noth eCommerce sites such as Amazon where scripts are
    analysing you and making suggestions evry inch of the way.

    Last resort. What about counting the number of server side instruction
    executed. Thatt's a good technique, but nobody is counting them. And
    thank goodness, if code counters became the metric then we would be
    lamblasted with spin telling us that splitting complex instructions into
    several smaller ones makes our code more robust, and the code generation
    wizards in commercial products would take the concept of bloatware into
    new realms!

    So....ahem..... there s no answer!

    But what is your REAL question? Why do you want to know?

    Maybe there is an answer for that;-)



    Digital Puer wrote:
    > does anyone know of a site showing market penetration comparisons
    > of server-side scripting technologies? I'm particularly looking
    > for the market shares of JSP, ASP, Cold Fusion, PHP, CGI, and
    > any others.
    >
    > Thank you for any information.
    Roger, Jul 25, 2003
    #3
  4. Digital Puer

    Roger Guest

    (Digital Puer) wrote in message news:<>...
    > does anyone know of a site showing market penetration comparisons
    > of server-side scripting technologies? I'm particularly looking
    > for the market shares of JSP, ASP, Cold Fusion, PHP, CGI, and
    > any others.
    >
    > Thank you for any information.


    Virtualy impossible!

    Firstly serious sites do as much as possible to hide the detail of
    thier sites, fequently making them appear as somthing else. For
    example, if using php they may give the files asp extensions and tell
    the php processor to process files with .asp extensions. In reality
    most apparent 'clues' are not obligatory and may be reconfigured.

    Secondly, it is very common to use multiple technologies. There is no
    reason why multiple modules may not be activated in a server, and a
    document may contain different scripts and xml tags which get
    elaborated by different modules as it goes througth the works.

    Usually this occurs on things like fully laden portal pages were
    elements may come from different work groups, or where a particular
    facility is not practical with the framework which is generally
    preffered.

    It is possible possible for dynamic content to serve up additional
    dynamic content, providing you can control the evaluation order! More
    commonly this will be server side modding client side script however.

    Another approach to doing surveys is the marketing companies who
    survey corporations, but of course they are surveying market sectors
    in a manner that interests thier subscribers, which can be extremely
    misleading if used casually. Certianly, vendors like to say they are
    e.g. widely placed in the fortune 100, but that also means they could
    well be very unsuitable tools for smaller outfits!

    Next problem.....If you ask people what they use they are likely to
    respond with the platform they have invested most in. Very often that
    is NOT the system that is actually getting most of the work done, a
    situation very widespread in the IT industry as a whole!

    You could look at "activity". For example, newsgroup activity can
    indicate that a solution is in widespread use, but penalises solutions
    which are easier to use and deply. Support sites and eZines are often
    taken as an indicator as to the popularity of a solution.
    Unfortunately most major vendors know this and have followed
    Microsofts lead in spending a significant part od thier R&D budgets in
    "evangelism", aka spin that is primarily orientated towards generating
    large quantities of articles and material in trade mags and eZines.

    Just to throw a last spanner into the works, there is a lot of "Open"
    stuff out there that is not commercially "marketed" or promoted and
    yet they are often market leaders, such as Apache.

    Oh, and another note......how do you judge market penetration? Number
    of servers? That means the Littleville Gardening club server on a
    domestic ADSL line with an enthusiastic student web smith counts the
    same as a Google front end. What about domains? In terms of volume the
    bulk of domains live on domain hosting servers which althogth offering
    active servises hardly ever actually use, and the individual domains
    probably only get a few hits each week. It has long been noted that
    99% of internet traffic travels througth 1% of the domains!

    So, lets be more sophisticated, lets make a rating based on server
    traffic? OK, that could be valid for comparing the routers, and maybe
    the web server, but not so much for dynamic page generation. Archive
    and download sites have large traffic but the server side scripting
    tends to be limited to a few menial tasks such as logins and site
    searches, a far cry from top-noth eCommerce sites such as Amazon where
    scripts are analysing you and making suggestions evry inch of the way.

    Last resort. What about counting the number of server side instruction
    executed. Thatt's a good technique, but nobody is counting them. And
    thank goodness, if code counters became the metric then we would be
    lamblasted with spin telling us that splitting complex instructions
    into several smaller ones makes our code more robust, and the code
    generation wizards in commercial products would take the concept of
    bloatware into new realms!

    So....ahem..... there s no answer!

    But what is your REAL question? Why do you want to know?

    Maybe there is an answer for that;-)
    Roger, Jul 25, 2003
    #4
  5. Digital Puer

    Sudsy Guest

    asj wrote:
    > Digital Puer wrote:
    >
    >>does anyone know of a site showing market penetration comparisons
    >>of server-side scripting technologies? I'm particularly looking
    >>for the market shares of JSP, ASP, Cold Fusion, PHP, CGI, and
    >>any others.
    >>
    >>Thank you for any information.

    >
    >
    >
    > pretty hard to track that i would think, but the popularity would
    > probably be:
    >
    > PHP > ASP > Cold Fusion/JSP > CGI
    >
    > i did read awhiles back that PHP is growing much faster than anything
    > else and had surpassed the popularity of asp.


    An interesting observation. Sorry, but I just don't buy it!
    What did PHP originally stand for? Personal Home Page. As a
    server-side solution, it's dwarfed by the capabilities and
    robustness of other technologies.
    So, apart from being an obvious PHP booster, where, exactly,
    are you getting those numbers from?
    Sudsy, Jul 26, 2003
    #5
  6. Digital Puer

    asj Guest

    Sudsy wrote:

    > An interesting observation. Sorry, but I just don't buy it!
    > What did PHP originally stand for? Personal Home Page. As a
    > server-side solution, it's dwarfed by the capabilities and
    > robustness of other technologies.
    > So, apart from being an obvious PHP booster, where, exactly,
    > are you getting those numbers from?



    PHP booster? i'm a java developer!
    you have to realize that the popularity of a technology is not tied to
    its "capabilities" or "robustness"...of those he listed, J2EE obviously
    is the most robust and enterprise capable, but that does not mean it's
    the most popular. PHP is an open source technology that is tightly
    integrated with apache, the world's most dominant web server. as an
    example, the hosting company i use offers servlets/jsp for a small fee,
    BUT PHP comes free with the plan...so, unless you're a java developer,
    which exactly would you choose? the vast majority of web projects do not
    require MVC, or EJBs, or whatever...it simply needs some dynamic page
    generation and connection to a database.

    with regards to where i saw that news that PHP became the most popular
    and fastest growing web scripting language, i'll have to dig, cause that
    news article was quite a while back, but it was posted in the PHP groups
    so that might be a place to start.
    asj, Jul 26, 2003
    #6
  7. Digital Puer

    Roedy Green Guest

    On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 02:17:33 -0400, Sudsy <>
    wrote or quoted :

    >So, apart from being an obvious PHP booster, where, exactly,
    >are you getting those numbers from?


    The local WEAV web user group is big on PHP. It is simple enough that
    even novices have half a chance of getting something working just by
    copying another's work with theme and variations.

    I went to a PHP workshop. I was impressed by the terse way you could
    specify the common actions.

    --
    Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
    Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming.
    See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
    Roedy Green, Jul 27, 2003
    #7
  8. Digital Puer

    Bruce Lewis Guest

    asj <> writes:

    > with regards to where i saw that news that PHP became the most popular
    > and fastest growing web scripting language, i'll have to dig, cause that
    > news article was quite a while back, but it was posted in the PHP groups
    > so that might be a place to start.


    They constantly cite installation statistics as if they were usage
    statistics. Nobody really knows what the usage is.

    --
    "Notwithstanding fervent argument that patent protection is essential
    for the growth of the software industry, commentators have noted
    that `this industry is growing by leaps and bounds without it.'"
    -- US Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens, March 3, 1981.
    Bruce Lewis, Jul 28, 2003
    #8
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