New Window = No No ???

[gcc]

I have been lurking on this NG for a while but rarely post, simply because I
don't have much to post anyway....lol

But here is my Question, In a round about way.....

Everytime I have seen someone post a question about opening a new window,
Sure I have seen them get the answers they need but also get flamed for
Opening another window....

The most recent being "What makes you think your users want a new window?"

Well What makes you think They Don't ?

If I am on a page and see a Link that I want to explore further, I will
right click the link and Open in a NEW window anyway, I don't want to be
deverted from What I was orginally on the intial page to view,

You all know as well as I do when your surfing that it is easy to get
interested in something else from a link, then another link and so on.......

So my question is Why do the majority if not all of the writters, coders,
designers or whatever insist that a new window for the user is like breaking
a commandment?

Just Curious......

 

[Karl Core]

I have been lurking on this NG for a while but rarely post, simply because
I don't have much to post anyway....lol

But here is my Question, In a round about way.....

Everytime I have seen someone post a question about opening a new window,
Sure I have seen them get the answers they need but also get flamed for
Opening another window....

The most recent being "What makes you think your users want a new window?"

Well What makes you think They Don't ?

Because I've spent hundreds of hours in a usability lab watching the
confusion and frustration of people interacting with web sites.

If I am on a page and see a Link that I want to explore further, I will
right click the link and Open in a NEW window anyway, I don't want to be
deverted from What I was orginally on the intial page to view,

You all know as well as I do when your surfing that it is easy to get
interested in something else from a link, then another link and so
on.......

The difference is that *you* are making the conscious choice to open the new
window.
I'm with you, man. I can't tell you how much I love tabbed browsing in
Firefox. I hate opening new windows, but I love tabbing.

So my question is Why do the majority if not all of the writters, coders,
designers or whatever insist that a new window for the user is like
breaking a commandment?

Because the "majority" of designers are fucking morons who have no more
business creating websites than their visitors do. They have this idiotic
delusion that opening a new window will "keep people from getting lost", but
exactly the opposite is what happens.
Read this: http://karlcore.com/articles/article.php?id=25

 

[Lauri Raittila]

I have been lurking on this NG for a while but rarely post, simply because I
don't have much to post anyway....lol

But here is my Question, In a round about way.....

Everytime I have seen someone post a question about opening a new window,
Sure I have seen them get the answers they need but also get flamed for
Opening another window....

The most recent being "What makes you think your users want a new window?"

Well What makes you think They Don't ?

Ever thought that not everybody bothers to reason common knowledge every
time. That is usually because there is planty of easy to find resources
telling it thoughly. Here is some:

http://www.google.com/search?q=new+windows
-> http://www.useit.com/alertbox/990530.html

http://www.google.com/search?q=why+not+new+windows
-> http://diveintoaccessibility.org/day_16_not_opening_new_windows.html

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=new+windows
-> http://karlcore.com/articles/article.php?id=25

If I am on a page and see a Link that I want to explore further, I will
right click the link and Open in a NEW window anyway, I don't want to be
deverted from What I was orginally on the intial page to view,

Not everybody do that every time. I do that sometimes, sometimes I don't.

You all know as well as I do when your surfing that it is easy to get
interested in something else from a link, then another link and so on.......

You can always dublicate the window, and go back and forward. Makes no
sence to open new window just because you might need it. Even less it
makes sence to open new window just because someone might need it.

So my question is Why do the majority if not all of the writters, coders,
designers or whatever insist that a new window for the user is like breaking
a commandment?

Because it is proved many times that it confuses people that don't
usually use new windows, as well as experienced users when it happens
unespected. And people who prefer opening links in new windows/tabs do it
same way always, so you can't help him/her by opening new window.

 

[Steve Pugh]

Everytime I have seen someone post a question about opening a new window,
Sure I have seen them get the answers they need but also get flamed for
Opening another window....

The most recent being "What makes you think your users want a new window?"

Well What makes you think They Don't ?

If they want a new window they can open one themselves.

If I am on a page and see a Link that I want to explore further, I will
right click the link and Open in a NEW window anyway, I don't want to be
deverted from What I was orginally on the intial page to view,

Exactly.
Now imagine that the web site forces you to use the same window?

So my question is Why do the majority if not all of the writters, coders,
designers or whatever insist that a new window for the user is like breaking
a commandment?

An ordinary link says nothing about what window it should open in -
the choice is entirely up to the user (most browsers default to the
same window but if you hunt around in the preferences you may,
depending on your browser, find an option to open all links in new
windows by default).

By setting target="_blank" you take choice away from the user.

It's easy to open an ordinary link in a new window, it's not so easy
to open a target="_blank" link in the existing window.

Steve

 

[Leif K-Brooks]

Everytime I have seen someone post a question about opening a new window,
Sure I have seen them get the answers they need but also get flamed for
Opening another window....

The most recent being "What makes you think your users want a new window?"

Well What makes you think They Don't ?

No one here has ever said that. If a user wants to open a new window,
they can do it for themselves without interfering with the desires of
any other users. If an author forces a new window on all of his users,
the ones who don't want a new window will be unhappy; if an author gives
his users choice, they can all be happy.

If I am on a page and see a Link that I want to explore further, I will
right click the link and Open in a NEW window anyway,

Exactly, and that's a good thing! But what if the author had used some
kind of tricky HTML to stop you from opening the link in a new window?
You would justly feel that the author was forcing his preferences on
you, and you would probably leave the site.

What makes you think that forcing the user to open links in a new window
is any different? The ones who don't want that will be just as unhappy
as you would be if stopped from opening the link in a new window.

The best option is to not force anything on anyone: use a straight link,
and let your users decide (with left/right/middle-click) where they want
it to open. Everyone can have their preferences honored!

 

[Richard]

I have been lurking on this NG for a while but rarely post, simply
because I
don't have much to post anyway....lol

But here is my Question, In a round about way.....

Everytime I have seen someone post a question about opening a new
window,
Sure I have seen them get the answers they need but also get flamed for
Opening another window....

The most recent being "What makes you think your users want a new
window?"

Well What makes you think They Don't ?

If I am on a page and see a Link that I want to explore further, I will
right click the link and Open in a NEW window anyway, I don't want to
be
deverted from What I was orginally on the intial page to view,

You all know as well as I do when your surfing that it is easy to get
interested in something else from a link, then another link and so
on.......

So my question is Why do the majority if not all of the writters,
coders,
designers or whatever insist that a new window for the user is like
breaking
a commandment?

Just Curious......

Links to external sites should open a new window. That way, you don't lose
the visitor, and if the visitor doesn't like the site, he just closes out
the new window. No big deal.
There are times when new windows are appropriate.
But not for switching from page to page within a site.
As you said, you have the choice to open in a new window.
Many times I do in case I don't want to hit the back button 10 times just to
get to the menu page.

 

[JDS]

If I am on a page and see a Link that I want to explore further, I will
right click the link and Open in a NEW window anyway, I don't want to be
deverted from What I was orginally on the intial page to view,

But you see, that is the point. *You* decided to open a new window, not
the designer of the site. Don't force your decisions on the end user. At
least not their style/manner of browsing.

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Links to external sites should open a new window. That way, you
don't lose the visitor, and if the visitor doesn't like the site,
he just closes out the new window.

But only if he *realizes* there is a new window. This is the whole
crux of the matter. People who use maximized browsers do NOT realize
they have a completely new window on top of the old one, and are
flummoxed when the Back button no longer takes them back to the
previous page. What do they do? Go to google and find a new site.

No big deal.

Very big deal.

There are times
when new windows are appropriate. But not for switching from page
to page within a site. As you said, you have the choice to open in
a new window. Many times I do in case I don't want to hit the back
button 10 times just to get to the menu page.

Then you don't know how to use the Back button. See that little
down-arrow beside the icon? Click it and see those last 10 pages.

 

[jake]

I have been lurking on this NG for a while but rarely post, simply because I
don't have much to post anyway....lol

But here is my Question, In a round about way.....

Everytime I have seen someone post a question about opening a new window,
Sure I have seen them get the answers they need but also get flamed for
Opening another window....

The most recent being "What makes you think your users want a new window?"

Well What makes you think They Don't ?

If I am on a page and see a Link that I want to explore further, I will
right click the link and Open in a NEW window anyway, I don't want to be
deverted from What I was orginally on the intial page to view,

You all know as well as I do when your surfing that it is easy to get
interested in something else from a link, then another link and so on.......

So my question is Why do the majority if not all of the writters, coders,
designers or whatever insist that a new window for the user is like breaking
a commandment?

Just Curious......

"New Window = No No ".

IMO the answer is "Yes No" or ("No Yes").

In other words are there any circumstances where I'd want to take a
positive decision to open a new window?

(YES) Well, I'd certainly open a new window when providing a link to an
external site (over which I have absolutely no control).

(NO) Other than that, I can't think of a good reason for opening another
window within the same site (not counting information 'pop-ups').

Just remember to tell people in advance that the link's going to open in
a new window -- for the benefit of AT users (screen-readers,
talking-browsers, etc.) -- and all's well.

regards.

 

[Dan]

Links to external sites should open a new window. That way, you don't lose
the visitor, and if the visitor doesn't like the site, he just closes out
the new window. No big deal.

Lots of usability experts disagree with you there.

Lots of "marketing types" seem to agree with you, but that's a problem
that can be solved quite simply by taking all the marketing people in
the world, lining them up, and executing them by firing squad.

 

[Karl Core]

Lots of usability experts disagree with you there.

Ignore everything Richard says.
In fact, treat everything he says as "Bizarro Advice". Do exactly the
opposite as he says and 90% of the time you'll be OK.

 

[Leif K-Brooks]

Well, I'd certainly open a new window when providing a link to an
external site (over which I have absolutely no control).

Just remember to tell people in advance that the link's going to open in
a new window -- for the benefit of AT users (screen-readers,
talking-browsers, etc.) -- and all's well.

"Just remember to tell people in advance that you're going to
machine-gun them in the crotch and then spit on their lifeless corpse
and all's well."

 

[David Dorward]

Many times I do in case I don't want to hit the back button 10 times just
to get to the menu page.

Obviously you don't want to use your bookmark button either.

Or your browser history.

Or the recent history of the current window/tab which most browsers put next
to the back button.

Or decide for yourself when you want a new window or tab.

Browsers give the user a lot of choice. Websites should not make those
choices for the user.

 

[jake]

"Just remember to tell people in advance that you're going to
machine-gun them in the crotch and then spit on their lifeless corpse
and all's well."

Sure. Why not.

regards.

 

[Sid Ismail]

: If I am on a page and see a Link that I want to explore further, I will
: right click the link and Open in a NEW window anyway


But that's exactly the point - the user decides to open a new window,
since it's his browser. The website doesn't _impose_ it on him.

Sid

 

[Andy Dingley]

Lots of usability experts disagree with you there.

Lots of "marketing types" seem to agree with you, but that's a problem
that can be solved quite simply by taking all the marketing people in
the world, lining them up, and executing them by firing squad.

You have a usability expert, a marketing type and only one bullet.
Which one do you shoot ?

 

[Barbara de Zoete]

You have a usability expert, a marketing type and only one bullet.
Which one do you shoot ?

Your client.

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[Steve Pugh]

You have a usability expert, a marketing type and only one bullet.
Which one do you shoot ?

Begins with 'R'...

 

[Uncle Pirate]

The most recent being "What makes you think your users want a new window?"

Well What makes you think They Don't ?

The popularity of popup stoppers? The irritation I feel every time an
unasked for window opens up on my desktop?

If I am on a page and see a Link that I want to explore further, I will
right click the link and Open in a NEW window anyway, I don't want to be
deverted from What I was orginally on the intial page to view,

You have that choice to open a new window. When the designer sets links
to open in a new window, there is no choice. It's too bad there is no
key combination to force a page to open in the same window. Of course,
then we'd have to get people to put warnings on their pages saying this
link opens a new window.

You all know as well as I do when your surfing that it is easy to get
interested in something else from a link, then another link and so on.......

So my question is Why do the majority if not all of the writters, coders,
designers or whatever insist that a new window for the user is like breaking
a commandment?

I hate it myself. I use a tabbed browser. Target="_blank" opens a new
browser instead of a tab. I don't like my desktop cluttered up with a
bunch of windows that I do not intend to use.

Just Curious......

That's a good thing.

--
Stan McCann "Uncle Pirate" http://stanmccann.us/pirate.html
Webmaster/Computer Center Manager, NMSU at Alamogordo
Coordinator, Tularosa Basin Chapter, ABATE of NM; AMA#758681; COBB
'94 1500 Vulcan (now wrecked) http://motorcyclefun.org/Dcp_2068c.jpg
A zest for living must include a willingness to die. - R.A. Heinlein

 

[Uncle Pirate]

Links to external sites should open a new window. That way, you don't lose
the visitor, and if the visitor doesn't like the site, he just closes out
the new window. No big deal.

To never return. You've lost the visitor permanently.

There are times when new windows are appropriate.
But not for switching from page to page within a site.
As you said, you have the choice to open in a new window.
Many times I do in case I don't want to hit the back button 10 times just to
get to the menu page.

You are so full of it. Opening a link in a new window because I'm
leaving your site just pisses people off that you are futilely
attempting to keep them there. NEVER open a new window for a user; the
user can if he wants one.

--
Stan McCann "Uncle Pirate" http://stanmccann.us/pirate.html
Webmaster/Computer Center Manager, NMSU at Alamogordo
Coordinator, Tularosa Basin Chapter, ABATE of NM; AMA#758681; COBB
'94 1500 Vulcan (now wrecked) http://motorcyclefun.org/Dcp_2068c.jpg
A zest for living must include a willingness to die. - R.A. Heinlein