no target="_blank"

J

Jaxtraw

William said:
Since I am in the process of building a personal website (
http://home.grandecom.net/~cvproj/carrier.htm ) that will contain
numerous links to other sites, I have been following this discussion
with some interest.

What if the links are explicitly marked, indicating that they will
open a new window? Would this be acceptable?

It really depends on your purpose. New window's primary advantage is that it
keeps your site available easily for the user to go back to. My example of a
commercially orientated link list- I don't want them to "lose" that site
because I'm trying to extract as many clicks on that site out of the traffic
as possible. I'm not interested in enhancing their browsing experience in
general- I'm interested effectively in farming the traffic. The only limit,
as with say commercial advertising, is not to irritate the surfer so much I
lose them through annoyance. So that's the balance to be struck.

This all sounds very shiny-suit but really it's practicality. If you have
normal links, the user clicks one, wanders off clicking more links, and
rapidly forgets your site. So "target=_blank" is far more efficient if
having on to surfers is your game.

What it comes down to- if you have an external link on your site and you're
keen to hang onto the person clicking it, do a target="_blank". Experience
shows it vastly increases the chances of them coming back to your site and
clicking something else, or reading more of your site. A lot of people don't
like the idea of this "manipulation" but it's only the same process that
goes on throughout the rest of our media-rich society. Get somebody's
attention and keep them as long as possible, and that often means mild
trickery. Web utopians insist that if your site is wonderful is all that
matters, but really people are as flighty and fickle as bumblebees and
they're easily lost.

That's my view anyway.

Ian
 
A

Adrienne Boswell

Gazing into my crystal ball I observed William Hughes
Since I am in the process of building a personal website (
http://home.grandecom.net/~cvproj/carrier.htm ) that will contain
numerous links to other sites, I have been following this discussion
with some interest.

What if the links are explicitly marked, indicating that they will
open a new window? Would this be acceptable?

First, please quote what you replying to.

I still don't see any reason for an _author_ to open links in new
windows. Leave it up to the user to decide.

I use mousegestures, and I rarely look up to see if the back button has
been grayed out. Trust me, it's very annoying to be gesturing back and
nothing happens.

When I have links to external sites on sites I author, I usually put
something like:
"Please note that links open in the same window. If you would like to
open the links in another window, Right-Click (windows) or Command-Click
(mac) and choose New Window or Tab."
 
J

Jaxtraw

Alan said:
I meant just what I said - and not what you wanted me to have said.


There are lots of things which authors deem to be a "valid design
choice" - without apparently caring what the consequences could be for
their readers.


If you understood the point of "strict", you would not waste your time
saying that.


And still -is- doing almost as much harm as it's ever done.
Especially for the naive users at whom it's targetted. (We more-
experienced users have learned how to tame it in some modern browsers,
thus regaining some of the control that we're supposed to get over
our browsing situation, according to the web's original aims.)


I'm sure they're duly humbled in your presence. :-(


I'm glad you made that clear! Let's hope other authors can learn from
your mistakes.


Hang on, what *is* this? You might have decided that the web is just
another form of commercial TV, but some of us use it for very
different reasons.


On the contrary: they codify the interworking specifications
for different mechanisms, which include a range of very different
technologies. It's *you* who is trying to "impose" your personal
view of what the web ought to be (commercial TV, apparently).

No, I'm not trying to impose anything on anyone. You are saying the web
should be for *this* purpose and thus websites should be *this* way. I'm
saying there are different types of website for different purposes. The
goals of somebody with a commercial website, for instance, are vastly
different to a hobby website or an academic one.

Any commercial site isn't about giving the user what they want- it's about
convincing them to want what you have, when you get down to it. And from a
commercial perspective, surfers are just faceless traffic, a resource to be
utilised. No doubt you think that's terrible, but that's the way it is. If
some surfer I do not know and never will doesn't want my product, then I
want something else out of them if I can get it; like trading him across to
another site in return for one of *their* surfers who may buy what I'm
selling. I don't as such frankly my dear give a damn whether they like new
windows or not- what I do know is that new windows will be far more
productive in terms of trading traffic, so that's what I'll do.

The w3c OTOH seem to be stuck in the idea of information being the only
purpose of the web. Hence the flaws in CSS that still treat web pages as
"documents" with headings and paragraphs- they still haven't, and probably
never will, get their head around the idea that that is only one use for the
web and that people want proper layout tools and that most webpages are
multiple documents with multiple flows (which is why we've gone from table
based layout to DIV soup).

"some of us use it for very different reasons"

Some of you do, yes, but that's just one use- the analogy to commercial TV
is entirely apt, since many websites these days are either selling things or
giving things away in return for traffic ("viewers").

I've nothing against their kind of site, or your kind of site. I'm merely
pointing out that my kind of site exists too :)

Ian
 
T

Toby Inkster

Jaxtraw said:
What it comes down to- if you have an external link on your site and you're
keen to hang onto the person clicking it, do a target="_blank"

OK, so you've done that; now the user comes along, clicks on your link and
decides she doesn't like the page that you linked to, so she wants to go
back to your site. She clicks the "Back" button on her browser tool bar:
nothing happens. She clicks it again: still nothing. She is confused, but
still hasn't found what she was looking for, so clicks on the "Home"
button on the toolbar to get to Yahoo search. She searches; she finds your
competitor.

"(...) some people can use Windows applications for years without
understanding the concept of task switching. (When I point to the task
bar and ask them what it's for, they can't tell me.) (...) spawning
second browser windows can completely throw users off track because it
removes the one thing they are sure how to use: the 'Back' button.(...)
In another recent study, six out of 17 users had difficulty with
multiple windows, and three of them required assistance to get back to
the first window and continue the task.
Carolyn Snyder, Seven tricks that Web users don't know: 7. Second
browser windows, June 2001
http://www.snyderconsulting.net/article_7tricks.htm#7
 
J

Jake

Toby Inkster said:
OK, so you've done that; now the user comes along, clicks on your link and
decides she doesn't like the page that you linked to, so she wants to go
back to your site. She clicks the "Back" button on her browser tool bar:
nothing happens. She clicks it again: still nothing. She is confused, but
still hasn't found what she was looking for, so clicks on the "Home"
button on the toolbar to get to Yahoo search. She searches; she finds your
competitor.

Or:

OK, so you've done that; now the user comes along, clicks on your link
and
decides she doesn't like the page that you linked to, so she wants to go
back to your site.

So she clicks on the little 'x' in the top-right corner and
lo-and-behold she's back on the very page she wanted.

She can do this because she's spent more than 20 minutes on the Web and
is far from confused ;-)



[Snip]
 
J

Jake

William Hughes said:
Since I am in the process of building a personal website (
http://home.grandecom.net/~cvproj/carrier.htm ) that will contain
numerous links to other sites, I have been following this discussion
with some interest.

What if the links are explicitly marked, indicating that they will
open a new window? Would this be acceptable?

Yes. Quite acceptable.

(You should give a warning so that people using Assistive Technology
(AT) User Agents are aware that a new window is opening.)
 
J

Jaxtraw

Toby said:
OK, so you've done that; now the user comes along, clicks on your
link and decides she doesn't like the page that you linked to, so she
wants to go back to your site. She clicks the "Back" button on her
browser tool bar: nothing happens. She clicks it again: still
nothing. She is confused, but still hasn't found what she was looking
for, so clicks on the "Home" button on the toolbar to get to Yahoo
search. She searches; she finds your competitor.

"(...) some people can use Windows applications for years without
understanding the concept of task switching. (When I point to the task
bar and ask them what it's for, they can't tell me.) (...) spawning
second browser windows can completely throw users off track because it
removes the one thing they are sure how to use: the 'Back'
button.(...) In another recent study, six out of 17 users had
difficulty with
multiple windows, and three of them required assistance to get back to
the first window and continue the task.
Carolyn Snyder, Seven tricks that Web users don't know: 7. Second
browser windows, June 2001
http://www.snyderconsulting.net/article_7tricks.htm#7

I've seen this argument a lot. The sad fact is, there's not much you can do
about stupid people. My partner once told me in fits of laughter that she'd
discovered her boss didn't know you could run more than one app at a time.
She was watching him and realised he'd start Excel, use it (full screen)
close it, start Word, close that, start Excel... she had to try and keep a
straight face while explaining the basics to him. He'd been using Windows
for years, unaware. It happens.

Most users are savvier than that. Once they've been on the net a short
while, if they've any capability with computers at all, they'll understand
new windows. If they don't, they're probably a dead loss who can't navigate
a form to buy things anyway.

I just opened IE, went to a link list, clicked a link, a new window opened.
I had two options to get rid of it- click the "X" for close or use the
"close" on the File menu. Either way, that just closed that window,
revealing the original link list window beneath. So when our dimwit has
given up with the Back button, she's closed the window and is now back at
the link list- which is what the list owner wants. Even after Yahooing, once
she closes that window our link site comes back up.

And statistically- the dimwits are lost in the figures of additional clicks.
New window simply works better in terms of traffic- which is why everybody
does it. Odds are, she's far more likely to see the link list again if it
spawned a new window than if I hope she'll click Back 20 times to get back
to it after wandering away.

I'd imagine Snyder's example is flawed in that it presumes a "task" to be
carried out. But we're not interested in surfers completing tasks- we're
interested in manipulating their behaviour to our own benefit in this case.
If my primary interest is keeping them focussed on the site exclusively, I'm
better off not giving them any external links at all.

As a couple of asides relevant to this discussion- "target" isn't just about
new windows. It also provides the very important "target=_top" for breaking
of framesets (preventing some third party framing my site for all sorts of
nefarious reasons).

It is also infinitely better IMV than javascripted window.open()s. Not only
does that break for non-javascript users, target opens a new, genuine
browser window whereas javascript frequently results in a chromeless window
lacking any kind of toolbars, navigation controls and so on. They're far
more infuriating. One of my credit card companies forces you to do all your
statements, payments etc in one, apparently because their developers can't
write a site that won't break if people use "Back". Drives me barmy.

Ian
 
U

usenet+2004

Toby Inkster:
One could use CSS system colours to style it in a way that blends in more
with the user's system.

Good point, hadn't thought of that. Still leaves the question of
wording but.
You've clicked a link; the browser would normally now follow the link.
Cancel allows you to cancel that.

I'm still not convinced! Cancel the following of the link, which
hasn't happened, or cancel (=collapse) the menu? I feel my concern is
with the label itself, not its function, even though that is new to me.
How about 'close'?
Try Opera. :)

Used to use it a lot. Even tailored the "context menu" to my liking!
 
U

usenet+2004

Jonathan N. Little:
Isn't that what the left-click is for?

If the menu lets you choose an operation to perform on the URL, I
think it should include an option to follow the link in the current tab
('tab' to be short, though it could be a one-tab window or something
else), even if that's the left-click's sole purpose.

I've often found myself right-clicking a link only to realise that I
want to follow it in the current tab. With an option for doing so, I
have at most one click to make, maybe just one release. Without, I
need to click to get rid of the menu then left-click the link. Three
clicks altogether. Pain in the arse. And if it's a target="_blank"
link and you can't tell your browser to ignore targets or you don't
want to across the board, then I see no way to follow the link in the
current tab without having such an option in the right-click menu.
 
J

Jake

In message
dorayme said:
Jake said:
In message
<[email protected]>, dorayme
Truth is - how you must all thank the Good Lord I am here -
[Snip]

Have you ever considered working for the United Nations (assuming you
don't already, of course)?

Don't be like that Jake! I have a soft spot for you because you
are the lone voice defending frames (which I am sentimentally
attached to... I have no such sites anymore, but I wheel the
copies out now and again from my archives to take a peek and have
a play when I feel depressed, wipe a tear away and a smile comes
on...)

Well, I always did regard you as the 'voice of reason' in this NG -- as
a lifeboat of calm in a shark-infested ocean ;-)

It's been a while since I visited -- interesting to see nothing's
changed -- same people (?) intoning the same old (bogus) arguments.

I must call back again, sometime, to see if anything's changed ;-)
 
D

dorayme

Adrienne Boswell said:
When I have links to external sites on sites I author, I usually put
something like:
"Please note that links open in the same window. If you would like to
open the links in another window, Right-Click (windows) or Command-Click
(mac) and choose New Window or Tab."

This is not right. Command tab on a Mac will open a new tab in
some or all browsers that have tabs, but not a new window. You
cannot get to choose the options you mention with command-click.
For this, you need to control-click.
 
D

dorayme

Jaxtraw said:
Any commercial site isn't about giving the user what they want- it's about
convincing them to want what you have, when you get down to it. And from a
commercial perspective, surfers are just faceless traffic, a resource to be
utilised. No doubt you think that's terrible, but that's the way it is.

and so on... is an excessively cynical view of commercial sites.
Believe it or not there are many companies actually interested in
providing information about their products (and sometimes more
than this).
 
M

Mark Parnell

Deciding to do something for the good of humanity, Els
<[email protected]> declared in alt.html:

I am "restricted" though to use 2 clicks for every link

Ctrl+click to open in a new tab opens the link straight away - though it
still opens the menu as well. :-\
 
A

Adrienne Boswell

Gazing into my crystal ball I observed dorayme
This is not right. Command tab on a Mac will open a new tab in
some or all browsers that have tabs, but not a new window. You
cannot get to choose the options you mention with command-click.
For this, you need to control-click.

Thank you so much for the correction... opening document...making
changes... done.
 
M

Mark Parnell

Deciding to do something for the good of humanity, Toby Inkster
Doesn't here. Must be a quirk with your browser.

Middle click doesn't, only Ctrl+left click. I'm using FF1.5 (Win2k)
FWIW.

In Opera, Shift+click just opens the menu - which is almost worse since
by Shift+clicking I'm already telling it I want a new page.

Hey, it was a good thought, I just don't think it's practical.
 
D

David Dorward

Jake said:
OK, so you've done that; now the user comes along, clicks on your link
and

So she clicks on the

.... address bar, goes back to Google and finds another site.

20 minutes late she finishes, clicks on the ...
little 'x' in the top-right corner and
lo-and-behold she's back on the very page she wanted.

.... but it is time to to pick up the kids / watch TV / eat dinner / go out /
etc so she shrugs and closes the window.
 

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