OT: Just venting, no need to reply.

[Jeffrey Silverman]

MSIE is a steaming pile of horse shit. No, I take it back. Calling MSIE
a steaming pile of horse shit is being too hard on steaming piles of horse
shit. I don't know what to call it. But it sucks monkey nuggets.

There. All vented. But I don't feel any better because I still have to
tweak and hack and fix and workaround just to get MSIE to do some really
basic stuff. Two extra hours of work for every one hour of real work just
to get MSIE to play nice.

And the worst part of it is, non-web developers or designers or whatever
(meaning just regular-shmoe web surfers) don't even realize how crappy
MSIE is. But maybe they are beginning to.

You know, back in 1999, MSIE 5 was actually pretty good. Definitely
better than NS4.x. Which, (among other reasons), is why, IMO, MSIE
finally took control over the Web from NS. But that was then. Now, five
and a half years and nearly zero "innovations" later, MSIE is sucky sucky
sucky.

Arrrrgh!!!

later...

 

[Jeffrey Silverman]

Arrrrgh!!!

Allright, I'll describe the source of today's frustration.

On MSIE 6.0.2800.1106 on Windows 2000, I am noticing a problem with
background images not showing up until a screen refresh. I'm not talking
about clicking the "Reload" button either -- I am talking about resizing,
minimizing, or maximizing the window to get the window to be redrawn.
*OR*, taking another open window and "dragging" it over top of the MSIE
window to redraw the portions of the screen under the window being dragged.

I have a background image in a DIV but the background does not show up
until the screen is re-drawn in one of the aforementioned ways.

Has anyone else seen this bug? Anyone know how to fix it?

Sample URL:
<http://initiatives.jhu.edu/nano?csson=1>

Screenshots of problem (in case you are lucky/smart and don't use Windows
or MSIE 6):
<http://engineering.jhu.edu/~jeff/msiebug.php>

Please note that I am running MSIE 6 on Wine on Linux. This does not
matter! I have confirmed that this problem exists exactly like I am
describing it on two different Windows 2000 machines running the same
version of MSIE. I only used the Wine screenshots because it was easier
for me to get the screenshots. The results are the same!

Thanks! later...

 

[Hywel Jenkins]

MSIE is a steaming pile of horse shit. No, I take it back. Calling MSIE
a steaming pile of horse shit is being too hard on steaming piles of horse
shit. I don't know what to call it. But it sucks monkey nuggets.

No news there, then.

And the worst part of it is, non-web developers or designers or whatever
(meaning just regular-shmoe web surfers) don't even realize how crappy
MSIE is. But maybe they are beginning to.

10 million Firefox downloads ...

You know, back in 1999, MSIE 5 was actually pretty good.

No it wasn't. It's just that NS4 was worse.

 

[SpaceGirl]

Allright, I'll describe the source of today's frustration.

On MSIE 6.0.2800.1106 on Windows 2000, I am noticing a problem with
background images not showing up until a screen refresh. I'm not talking
about clicking the "Reload" button either -- I am talking about resizing,
minimizing, or maximizing the window to get the window to be redrawn.
*OR*, taking another open window and "dragging" it over top of the MSIE
window to redraw the portions of the screen under the window being dragged.

I have a background image in a DIV but the background does not show up
until the screen is re-drawn in one of the aforementioned ways.

Has anyone else seen this bug? Anyone know how to fix it?

Sample URL:
<http://initiatives.jhu.edu/nano?csson=1>

Screenshots of problem (in case you are lucky/smart and don't use Windows
or MSIE 6):
<http://engineering.jhu.edu/~jeff/msiebug.php>

Please note that I am running MSIE 6 on Wine on Linux. This does not
matter! I have confirmed that this problem exists exactly like I am
describing it on two different Windows 2000 machines running the same
version of MSIE. I only used the Wine screenshots because it was easier
for me to get the screenshots. The results are the same!

Thanks! later...

Hmmmm, not so sure.

--


x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

# lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
# remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #

 

[SpaceGirl]

MSIE is a steaming pile of horse shit. No, I take it back. Calling MSIE
a steaming pile of horse shit is being too hard on steaming piles of horse
shit. I don't know what to call it. But it sucks monkey nuggets.

There. All vented. But I don't feel any better because I still have to
tweak and hack and fix and workaround just to get MSIE to do some really
basic stuff. Two extra hours of work for every one hour of real work just
to get MSIE to play nice.

And the worst part of it is, non-web developers or designers or whatever
(meaning just regular-shmoe web surfers) don't even realize how crappy
MSIE is. But maybe they are beginning to.

You know, back in 1999, MSIE 5 was actually pretty good. Definitely
better than NS4.x. Which, (among other reasons), is why, IMO, MSIE
finally took control over the Web from NS. But that was then. Now, five
and a half years and nearly zero "innovations" later, MSIE is sucky sucky
sucky.

Arrrrgh!!!

later...

I've been struggling for the last hour to get transparent Flash movies
to work on IE (mac) and Safari (Mac). They work fine on Windows IE6 /
FireFox. Really annoying..!!!!! Just wont work!

--


x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

# lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
# remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #

 

[Leif K-Brooks]

MSIE is a steaming pile of horse shit. No, I take it back. Calling MSIE
a steaming pile of horse shit is being too hard on steaming piles of horse
shit. I don't know what to call it. But it sucks monkey nuggets.

My thoughts exactly. Anyone want to contribute to the "buy a giant
statue of the Mozilla dinosaur and a plane powerful enough to carry it
so that a bunch of us can drop it on Microsoft headquarters" fund?

 

[Stephen Poley]

Allright, I'll describe the source of today's frustration.

On MSIE 6.0.2800.1106 on Windows 2000, I am noticing a problem with
background images not showing up until a screen refresh. I'm not talking
about clicking the "Reload" button either -- I am talking about resizing,
minimizing, or maximizing the window to get the window to be redrawn.
*OR*, taking another open window and "dragging" it over top of the MSIE
window to redraw the portions of the screen under the window being dragged.

I have a background image in a DIV but the background does not show up
until the screen is re-drawn in one of the aforementioned ways.

Has anyone else seen this bug?

Sort of. It sounds related to one of the bugs that intermittently hits
my site in some copies of IE and has been discussed in another thread
today.

Anyone know how to fix it?

Someone in Redmond maybe? (Actually my theory is that no more releases
are coming for IE because the code has got so fragile that they can
hardly touch it without it falling apart completely. Much as Netscape 4
became in fact.)

 

[Sybren Stuvel]

["Followup-To:" header set to alt.html.]
Jeffrey Silverman enlightened us with:

And the worst part of it is, non-web developers or designers or
whatever (meaning just regular-shmoe web surfers) don't even realize
how crappy MSIE is. But maybe they are beginning to.

Well, the problem is that every developer tries to do his/her best to
get a site to display properly on MSIE - either because they want it,
or because their boss tells them to.

Personally, I've stopped supporting MSIE on my personal websites. If
someone uses MSIE, I tell them they use a backwards browser from the
middleages.

A large part of the internet is built by hobbyists. If a big part of
these hobbyists stop supporting MSIE, maybe we can make people say "I
want to use Firefox/Opera/Whatever because it works on every website".
Because /that/ is exactly why people keep using MSIE - it works on
every website.

Sybren

 

[Jim Higson]

Allright, I'll describe the source of today's frustration.

On MSIE 6.0.2800.1106 on Windows 2000, I am noticing a problem with
background images not showing up until a screen refresh. I'm not talking
about clicking the "Reload" button either -- I am talking about resizing,
minimizing, or maximizing the window to get the window to be redrawn.
*OR*, taking another open window and "dragging" it over top of the MSIE
window to redraw the portions of the screen under the window being
dragged.

I have a background image in a DIV but the background does not show up
until the screen is re-drawn in one of the aforementioned ways.

Has anyone else seen this bug? Anyone know how to fix it?

Sample URL:
<http://initiatives.jhu.edu/nano?csson=1>

Screenshots of problem (in case you are lucky/smart and don't use Windows
or MSIE 6):
<http://engineering.jhu.edu/~jeff/msiebug.php>

Please note that I am running MSIE 6 on Wine on Linux. This does not
matter! I have confirmed that this problem exists exactly like I am
describing it on two different Windows 2000 machines running the same
version of MSIE. I only used the Wine screenshots because it was easier
for me to get the screenshots. The results are the same!

Thanks! later...

might be this:
http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer/peekaboo.html

 

[Peter]

Leif K-Brooks schreef:

My thoughts exactly. Anyone want to contribute to the "buy a giant
statue of the Mozilla dinosaur and a plane powerful enough to carry it
so that a bunch of us can drop it on Microsoft headquarters" fund?

Hell no!
They´ll manage to steal it and alter it a little bit and sell it to the
world again as their own invention. They did it before, remember?

 

[Travis Newbury]

MSIE is a steaming pile of horse shit. No, I take it back. Calling MSIE
a steaming pile of horse shit is being too hard on steaming piles of horse
shit. I don't know what to call it. But it sucks monkey nuggets.

Tell us how you really feel...

 

[SpaceGirl]

["Followup-To:" header set to alt.html.]
Jeffrey Silverman enlightened us with:

And the worst part of it is, non-web developers or designers or
whatever (meaning just regular-shmoe web surfers) don't even realize
how crappy MSIE is. But maybe they are beginning to.

Well, the problem is that every developer tries to do his/her best to
get a site to display properly on MSIE - either because they want it,
or because their boss tells them to.

Because they HAVE to. 96% of people still use IE. You're stuck with it.
While other browsers are catching up (I use FireFox personally) you HAVE
TO DESIGN FOR IE... you have no choice if you actually WANT people to
visit your site.

Personally, I've stopped supporting MSIE on my personal websites. If
someone uses MSIE, I tell them they use a backwards browser from the
middleages.

That is just plain stupid. You just cut off about a billion visitors
from your site (96% of everyone on the net). Pretty dumb.

A large part of the internet is built by hobbyists. If a big part of
these hobbyists stop supporting MSIE, maybe we can make people say "I
want to use Firefox/Opera/Whatever because it works on every website".

Yes, you can say "best viewed with Mozilla" or something, but that's it.
Perhaps offer extra content for more advanced browsers. But no way can
you bar people using the site. Yes a large number of sites are build by
hobbiest, but 99.99% of those sites are fecking terrible "my first web
page" sites and would be crap on any browser, not just IE. It's up to
professional designers to design sites that work *well* on IE, but
perhaps offer more on newer browsers. But you CANNOT dictate what your
users have installed on their machines. If that were the case there
WOULD BE no FireFox as MS would have forced IE to be the only browser on
Windows, right?

Because /that/ is exactly why people keep using MSIE - it works on
every website.

Crap. It's because most people dont care. The vast majority of web users
are non-technical, and frankly dont give a shit about what browser they
have. IE comes with Windows, so that's what they stick with. While the
pool of enlightened FireFox users is grown rapidly, it's years away from
having a significant market share - significant enough to dump support
for IE. When we get down to 1 or 2% of users using IE, then perhaps you
can drop support. But even then, can you afford to tell two or three
million possible visitors on your site to "go away"?

Sybren

--


x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

# lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
# remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #

 

[Sybren Stuvel]

SpaceGirl enlightened us with:

Because they HAVE to. 96% of people still use IE.

It's less. A fresh install of Opera identifies itself as MSIE. Not
much less, but less. AFAIK it's about 94% that's using MSIE. That's
not a big difference, but when you look that it's 50% more people
using a non-MSIE browser, those 2% make quite a lot of difference.

You're stuck with it. While other browsers are catching up (I use
FireFox personally) you HAVE TO DESIGN FOR IE... you have no choice
if you actually WANT people to visit your site.

I'm not talking about making my website inaccessible for MSIE users.
All I do is give them a less pretty version of the same site. Every
browser should be able to access the information.

As an example, visit http://www.unrealtower.org/ with MSIE and
Firefox, and compare them.

That is just plain stupid. You just cut off about a billion visitors
from your site (96% of everyone on the net). Pretty dumb.

You are the one talking about cutting people off. I'm not. "Not
supporting" is something completely different than "blocking".

Yes, you can say "best viewed with Mozilla" or something, but that's
it.

I'll only tell people using MSIE that they're using a backward
browser. Think about it: I've built a website (XHTML 1.1, CSS 2) that
renders fine on every modern browser. Even lynx and Netscape 4 display
it in a perfectly usable way. Looks like crap, but it's perfectly
usable. The only browser on this whole planet to mess it up so badly
the entire site is unusable, is MSIE.

Perhaps offer extra content for more advanced browsers.

No - the content of the page should be exactly the same, no matter
what someone uses. The styles and layout - the points where MSIE is
really buggy and far behind on other browsers - could be different,
though.

But no way can you bar people using the site.

Again, *you* are talking about completely blocking MSIE.

But you CANNOT dictate what your users have installed on their
machines. If that were the case there WOULD BE no FireFox as MS
would have forced IE to be the only browser on Windows, right?

I'm not dictating what people use as a browser. They can use any
modern browser they want! As long as it's compliance with the W3C
standards is acceptable.

When we get down to 1 or 2% of users using IE, then perhaps you can
drop support. But even then, can you afford to tell two or three
million possible visitors on your site to "go away"?

People tell that to non-MSIE users, even though about 6% of the people
use something else. Do you really think that those people, that tell
6% to go and get lost, care about a lousy 2% when that's all that's
left of MSIE? Think again.

Sybren

 

[SpaceGirl]

SpaceGirl enlightened us with:



It's less. A fresh install of Opera identifies itself as MSIE. Not
much less, but less. AFAIK it's about 94% that's using MSIE. That's
not a big difference, but when you look that it's 50% more people
using a non-MSIE browser, those 2% make quite a lot of difference.

I'm not going to quibble over the numbers. A default Opera install still
says "opera" in it the header... still gets recorded as opera by MY
browser checking scripts. I suspect most are the same these days.

I'm not talking about making my website inaccessible for MSIE users.
All I do is give them a less pretty version of the same site. Every
browser should be able to access the information.

That's what you suggested, but if it's not what you meant, fine

As an example, visit http://www.unrealtower.org/ with MSIE and
Firefox, and compare them.




You are the one talking about cutting people off. I'm not. "Not
supporting" is something completely different than "blocking".

It sounds like it to me. If it's not supported then, they dont see
anything? If you offer a different version of the site for IE users,
then you ARE supporting it. Stop mincing your words

I'll only tell people using MSIE that they're using a backward
browser. Think about it: I've built a website (XHTML 1.1, CSS 2) that
renders fine on every modern browser. Even lynx and Netscape 4 display
it in a perfectly usable way. Looks like crap, but it's perfectly
usable. The only browser on this whole planet to mess it up so badly
the entire site is unusable, is MSIE.

Good. That's what designers SHOULD do.

No - the content of the page should be exactly the same, no matter
what someone uses. The styles and layout - the points where MSIE is
really buggy and far behind on other browsers - could be different,
though.

Not really. Should I offer streamed video to linx browsers? Or flash?
errmmmm... no. I provide different content.

Again, *you* are talking about completely blocking MSIE.

cuz you... never mind.

I'm not dictating what people use as a browser. They can use any
modern browser they want! As long as it's compliance with the W3C
standards is acceptable.

But by definition that excludes IE. SO they can use any browser except
IE you mean....? Make up your mind.

People tell that to non-MSIE users, even though about 6% of the people
use something else. Do you really think that those people, that tell
6% to go and get lost, care about a lousy 2% when that's all that's
left of MSIE? Think again.

??? not sure that makes sense. Generally though, sites DONT tell users
to go away if they have a weird browser. The one exception being online
banks which tell you to "go away" if you have anything OTHER than IE...
doh! (which REALLY sucks... my bank does this).

Sybren

--


x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

# lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
# remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #

 

[Sybren Stuvel]

SpaceGirl enlightened us with:

I'm not going to quibble over the numbers.

Ok, let's not.

If you offer a different version of the site for IE users, then you
ARE supporting it. Stop mincing your words

You're right.

Not really. Should I offer streamed video to linx browsers? Or
flash? errmmmm... no.

Why not?

But by definition that excludes IE. SO they can use any browser
except IE you mean....? Make up your mind.

As far as I'm concerned that's right. They can even use MSIE once it
gets up to par with the rest. Or, they can move along and not visit my
site. That's what I like about personal websites - it's not about
making a profit or anything. I build a website because people are
interested in what I have to offer.

The one exception being online banks which tell you to "go away" if
you have anything OTHER than IE... doh! (which REALLY sucks... my
bank does this).

I changed banks because of this. MSIE is known for it's lousy
security. I don't want to hae a bank that only allows such a product
on their site.

Sybren

 

[Neal]

you HAVE TO DESIGN FOR IE... you have no choice if you actually WANT
people to visit your site.

Nope. You have to strongly consider the IE rendering, but you don't have
to design for IE. I design for the WWW, and my stuff looks good in IE and
elsewhere.

Really, unless we all stop working as if IE was all there was, we'll never
get anywhere.

That is just plain stupid. You just cut off about a billion visitors
from your site (96% of everyone on the net). Pretty dumb.

More visitors for you, then. Don't try to dissuade him!

 

[SpaceGirl]

SpaceGirl enlightened us with:


Ok, let's not.

Why not?

Because linx cannot view streamed video. It's a non-graphical browser.

As far as I'm concerned that's right. They can even use MSIE once it
gets up to par with the rest. Or, they can move along and not visit my
site. That's what I like about personal websites - it's not about
making a profit or anything. I build a website because people are
interested in what I have to offer.

I guess it's your site. But how many people would upgrade just to see
your site? Probably none.

I changed banks because of this. MSIE is known for it's lousy
security. I don't want to hae a bank that only allows such a product
on their site.

Yeah... must admit I've been tempted too. But I have too many accounts.
It would be a nightmare.


--


x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

# lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
# remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #

 

[Sybren Stuvel]

SpaceGirl enlightened us with:

Because linx cannot view streamed video. It's a non-graphical browser.

Ah blech, I mis-read it and ready 'linux'. I think you're reffering to
either "links" or "lynx".

I guess it's your site. But how many people would upgrade just to
see your site? Probably none.

I guess so. Then again: it's their loss. I'm only saving bandwidth

Sybren

 

[Toby Inkster]

Because linx cannot view streamed video. It's a non-graphical browser.

Assuming you are refering to Lynx, yes it can. Just not inline (e.g. via
the <object> element). When faced with a simple link to a streamed video
it will open the video in the user's choice of application (e.g.
RealPlayer), much like a graphical browser might do.

That user's choice of application might not even be a graphical
application -- aalib provides handy real-time rendering of video as ASCII
art!