Show me the way

[Duende]

While sitting in a puddle Karl Core scribbled in the mud:

Nothing more,
nothing less, because the client just doesn't care.

As usual, Mr. Core is right on track & knows how to properly explain his
concept.

 

[Uncle Pirate]

Hope this helps you -- and I'll head back to lurk-mode now.

Good points Tam. Many many are still using dial up and finding the same
problems you are. I taught an HTML class this past semester and one of
the things I told my students is to never put that "This site requires
...." as that is equivalent to saying "go away, we don't want or need
your business." When was the last time you changed your screen
resolution or bought a newer computer or whatever the site is demanding
for you to view it. I don't do any of that stuff, I simply leave. And
you are right on about companies not caring so I don't bother to write
webmasters or "customer non-support" anymore.

I, as many of my freinds do, browse with no cookies, no java, no
javascript, no plugins, no popups. I don't install every (none) plugin
that I see that I *must* have. When any of that is required, I'm gone.
Anyone can use all that junk they want, but if the site depends on it,
they aren't getting my business. That is, unless I know ahead of time
that I want/need to go to a particular site.

For instance, I use Mozilla for general browsing; it's locked down
tight. I see quite a few blank, white pages whereupon I just use my
back button. I then use MyIE2 for my eBay business, Paypal, postal
service, and domain registrar. Currently, those are the only sites that
I visit that require the things I normally do not allow.

I do not like it, but if I am to continue my business, I must submit to
use of their crappy websites. By browsing the web the way I do, I
rarely get caught with a virus, spyware, worms, etc.

And for the OP, not what you're looking for, but in the process of
changing, is my site that I get paid for working on:
http://alamo.nmsu.edu. The newer pages are all HTML 4.01 strict with
CSS. I've got lots more to do and lots more to learn so don't be too
harsh.

--
Stan McCann "Uncle Pirate" http://stanmccann.us/pirate.html
Webmaster/Computer Center Manager, NMSU at Alamogordo
Cooordinator, Tularosa Basin Chapter, ABATE of NM; AMA#758681; COBB
'94 1500 Vulcan (now wrecked) http://motorcyclefun.org/Dcp_2068c.jpg
A zest for living must include a willingness to die. - R.A. Heinlein

 

[Uncle Pirate]

Wow. That sure as heck ain't true!

Sure it is! In your dreams.

--
Stan McCann "Uncle Pirate" http://stanmccann.us/pirate.html
Webmaster/Computer Center Manager, NMSU at Alamogordo
Cooordinator, Tularosa Basin Chapter, ABATE of NM; AMA#758681; COBB
'94 1500 Vulcan (now wrecked) http://motorcyclefun.org/Dcp_2068c.jpg
A zest for living must include a willingness to die. - R.A. Heinlein

 

[Travis Newbury]

So electricians, lawyers and architects are all independently wealthy?
Nearly all of them will say no to you if they think your idea is unwise.
Why should web designers be different?

You know, I almost started to reply to this, and thought it better not
to. (For obvious reasons)

 

[Travis Newbury]

Wow. That sure as heck ain't true!

Show me one that is is usable in IE and unusable in Firefox.

 

[Travis Newbury]

For instance, I use Mozilla for general browsing; it's locked down
tight. I see quite a few blank, white pages whereupon I just use my
back button. I then use MyIE2 for my eBay business, Paypal, postal
service, and domain registrar. Currently, those are the only sites that
I visit that require the things I normally do not allow.

I do not like it, but if I am to continue my business, I must submit to
use of their crappy websites. By browsing the web the way I do, I
rarely get caught with a virus, spyware, worms, etc.

So (unknowingly maybe) you are part of the problem. They know you and
others will continue to use their site because you want their service.
What incentive is there for them to change? Stop using them and they
will change. Continue to use them as they are, and they will never
change.

One would think that a free market would drive accessibility and
usability, but as long as everyone conforms (and they will) both will
probably be in the background of corporations.

 

[Neal]

So (unknowingly maybe) you are part of the problem. They know you and
others will continue to use their site because you want their service.
What incentive is there for them to change? Stop using them and they
will change. Continue to use them as they are, and they will never
change.

If only it were that simple.

Since my auto insurance company won't do automatic debit, I have to write
them a check. What's their incentive to change, even though all but one
other bill (the rent, and she's local) is automatically billed?

I could search on end for an auto insurance company that did do auto bill
- and in MA it's not so easy! - or I go along and just write them out. Not
my fault they're behind the times.

One would think that a free market would drive accessibility and
usability, but as long as everyone conforms (and they will) both will
probably be in the background of corporations.

I see a flaw here, but I've had far too much vodka to clearly articulate
it. And it didn't take much. It's a fine point.

But I don't think businesses will sit back watching a lot of other sites
change to accomodate and be usable for many UAs and not think "why don't
we do that?" - it's the corporate mindset. Once the public is used to a
convention, they accomodate it.

So the goal isn't to not use websites you need, it's to encourage more and
more people to turn to more compliant browsers.

 

[Neal]

Travis

(e-mail address removed)

You know, I almost started to reply to this, and thought it better not
to. (For obvious reasons)

Perhaps those reasons are not so obvious??

Do tell...

 

[Mark Parnell]

You know, I almost started to reply to this, and thought it better not
to. (For obvious reasons)

That would be because you know he's right and you couldn't think of a
rebuttal?

 

[Neal]

Mark Parnell

Travis
That would be because you know he's right and you couldn't think of a
rebuttal?

Well, the one catch is this: many web designers are NOT very professional.

Feel free to flame all over that.

 

[Mark Parnell]

Well, the one catch is this: many web designers are NOT very professional.

Which I believe is your point - they should be. Though there is no
qualifications or certification involved, which is usually what defines
"professional". Doesn't mean they shouldn't act it though.

Feel free to flame all over that.

No need - I'm sure Travis will do it for me. ;-)

 

[rf]

Mark Parnell wrote:

professional.

Which I believe is your point - they should be. Though there is no
qualifications or certification involved, which is usually what defines
"professional". Doesn't mean they shouldn't act it though.

The sad thing is that those "non professional" oddbods that drift in here
actually believe they know more about this stuff than those of us who have
been doing it professionally for years.

 

[Duende]

While sitting in a puddle rf scribbled in the mud:

The sad thing is that those "non professional" oddbods that drift in here

Hey, watch your tongue there young man.

 

[Mark Parnell]

While sitting in a puddle rf scribbled in the mud:


Hey, watch your tongue there young man.

So speaks one of the oddest bods. ;-)

 

[Travis Newbury]

Perhaps those reasons are not so obvious??
Do tell...

It would only lead to another "what is right or wrong for the web"
discussion, and we have already determined we disagree with that so I
see no need to head down that road again.
That's all I meant.

 

[Travis Newbury]

That would be because you know he's right and you couldn't think of a
rebuttal?

No it was because we disagree with what is right and wrong for the web,
and there is no need to head down that road again.

 

[Travis Newbury]

If only it were that simple.
Since my auto insurance company won't do automatic debit, I have to write
them a check. What's their incentive to change, even though all but one
other bill (the rent, and she's local) is automatically billed?
I could search on end for an auto insurance company that did do auto bill
- and in MA it's not so easy! - or I go along and just write them out. Not
my fault they're behind the times.

But your continued use of their service tells them that they currently
do not have to make the change because people are adjusting. If people
just stopped using the service (with a reason why), then they would
have to re-evaluate their procedures. Boycots are used all the time to
get companies to change.

I see a flaw here, but I've had far too much vodka to clearly articulate
it. And it didn't take much. It's a fine point.

One can never have too much [enter your drug of choice here] to type in
alt.html....

But I don't think businesses will sit back watching a lot of other sites
change to accomodate and be usable for many UAs and not think "why don't
we do that?" - it's the corporate mindset. Once the public is used to a
convention, they accomodate it.
So the goal isn't to not use websites you need, it's to encourage more and
more people to turn to more compliant browsers.

Assuming they listen. Sadly I don't think they really do, or not
enough people are complaining yet.

 

[kchayka]

I don't think businesses will sit back watching a lot of other sites
change to accomodate and be usable for many UAs and not think "why don't
we do that?" - it's the corporate mindset.

Indeed. I've been having a go at changing this stoopid mindset with
Qwest, over a formatting problem with my online bill. The issue is a
direct result of bad markup, yet they seem unwilling to address it just
because I'm not using IE, even after I showed them that browser doesn't
matter.

But it is the phone company, so I guess I really shouldn't be surprised. :-\

 

[Uncle Pirate]

But your continued use of their service tells them that they currently
do not have to make the change because people are adjusting. If people
just stopped using the service (with a reason why), then they would
have to re-evaluate their procedures. Boycots are used all the time to
get companies to change.

Exactly! People. It does no good to have a boycott of one customer.
If someone would convince the other million or so other users that they
should also boycott, I'd be right there.

Unfortunatly, there are too many people that don't care. Businesses
today don't seem to care if they keep customers. The attitude seems to
have become: "why go out of our way for him, there's a thousand more
down the road."

more and



Assuming they listen. Sadly I don't think they really do, or not
enough people are complaining yet.

They don't listen because there are too many sheep in the world that
will just follow along without question. How do you think MicroSoft got
so big when their products were/are so bad? They figured out how to
attact the non-thinking sheep. If I'd had my way, we'd all be using
Amigas instead of PCs with Windows.

Don't take the above as a total blast against MS though. Although I
think Windows sucks, I use it reluctantly because of my job and because
there are some MS applications that I actually like. I'd be lost
without the MS Office suite (although Open Office is coming along
nicely); I frequently use Streets & trips, and I've played some MS games
that I've really enjoyed.

--
Stan McCann "Uncle Pirate" http://stanmccann.us/pirate.html
Webmaster/Computer Center Manager, NMSU at Alamogordo
Cooordinator, Tularosa Basin Chapter, ABATE of NM; AMA#758681; COBB
'94 1500 Vulcan (now wrecked) http://motorcyclefun.org/Dcp_2068c.jpg
A zest for living must include a willingness to die. - R.A. Heinlein

 

[Kris]

professional.

Which I believe is your point - they should be. Though there is no
qualifications or certification involved, which is usually what defines
"professional". Doesn't mean they shouldn't act it though.

The sad thing is that those "non professional" oddbods that drift in here
actually believe they know more about this stuff than those of us who have
been doing it professionally for years.[/QUOTE]

That is because most of them do know more about it than most of the pros.