Two domains and content? - Quesiton from Client

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Hunter, Jan 9, 2004.

  1. Hunter

    Hunter Guest

    Hi All -

    I built a site for a client a couple of months ago:
    http://www.cranberrycorners.ca/home.shtml
    It does Ok on Google - it's usually listed on the 2nd page for her keywords.
    So she's gone and bought a 2nd domain that is more google friendly with the
    hopes of getting higher rankings for her site:
    http://www.ottawa-gift-baskets.com

    I currently have the 2nd domain parked so it is just a redirect to the
    original site.

    She wondered why I could not just duplicate the websites - and I could not
    give her a good answer as to why that is not a good idea.

    *IS* it a good idea ? Apart from me ensuring the sites are sync'd - are
    there any issues with having this duplicate content ? I thought they may
    fight each other for Google ranking - but what difference would that make ?

    Any advice, comments much appreciated.

    david
    Hunter, Jan 9, 2004
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Hunter

    Denise Guest

    "Hunter" <> wrote in message
    news:SqELb.45887$...
    > Hi All -
    >
    > I built a site for a client a couple of months ago:
    > http://www.cranberrycorners.ca/home.shtml
    > It does Ok on Google - it's usually listed on the 2nd page for her

    keywords.
    > So she's gone and bought a 2nd domain that is more google friendly with

    the
    > hopes of getting higher rankings for her site:
    > http://www.ottawa-gift-baskets.com
    >
    > I currently have the 2nd domain parked so it is just a redirect to the
    > original site.
    >
    > She wondered why I could not just duplicate the websites - and I could not
    > give her a good answer as to why that is not a good idea.
    >
    > *IS* it a good idea ? Apart from me ensuring the sites are sync'd - are
    > there any issues with having this duplicate content ? I thought they may
    > fight each other for Google ranking - but what difference would that make

    ?
    >
    > Any advice, comments much appreciated.
    >
    > david


    It is definitely not a good idea. It is considered spamming the search
    engines. Search engines penalize sites in the rankings - or may drop the
    listing altogether - if the site's content is not unique. Better to be on
    the second page, than no page! Pick one domain name and stick with it.

    It is not the domain name that matters most when it comes to rankings, it is
    the site's content. Rather than messing with alternate domain names, etc.
    work on optimizing the content - and to a lesser degree, the design - of the
    site and the rankings will improve.

    best,
    Denise
    Denise, Jan 9, 2004
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Hunter

    Duende Guest

    While sitting in a puddle Hunter scribbled in the mud:

    > Hi All -
    >
    > I built a site for a client a couple of months ago:
    > http://www.cranberrycorners.ca/home.shtml
    > It does Ok on Google - it's usually listed on the 2nd page for her
    > keywords. So she's gone and bought a 2nd domain that is more google
    > friendly with the hopes of getting higher rankings for her site:
    > http://www.ottawa-gift-baskets.com
    >
    > I currently have the 2nd domain parked so it is just a redirect to the
    > original site.
    >
    > She wondered why I could not just duplicate the websites - and I could
    > not give her a good answer as to why that is not a good idea.
    >
    > *IS* it a good idea ? Apart from me ensuring the sites are sync'd -
    > are there any issues with having this duplicate content ? I thought
    > they may fight each other for Google ranking - but what difference
    > would that make ?
    >

    Google doesn't like mirror sites & may drope both of them.



    --
    Duende
    Duende, Jan 9, 2004
    #3
  4. Hunter

    Hunter Guest

    "Denise" <> wrote in message
    news:yyELb.1595$...
    > "Hunter" <> wrote in message
    > news:SqELb.45887$...
    > > Hi All -
    > >
    > > I built a site for a client a couple of months ago:
    > > http://www.cranberrycorners.ca/home.shtml
    > > It does Ok on Google - it's usually listed on the 2nd page for her

    > keywords.
    > > So she's gone and bought a 2nd domain that is more google friendly with

    > the
    > > hopes of getting higher rankings for her site:
    > > http://www.ottawa-gift-baskets.com
    > >
    > > I currently have the 2nd domain parked so it is just a redirect to the
    > > original site.
    > >
    > > She wondered why I could not just duplicate the websites - and I could

    not
    > > give her a good answer as to why that is not a good idea.
    > >
    > > *IS* it a good idea ? Apart from me ensuring the sites are sync'd - are
    > > there any issues with having this duplicate content ? I thought they may
    > > fight each other for Google ranking - but what difference would that

    make
    > ?
    > >
    > > Any advice, comments much appreciated.
    > >
    > > david

    >
    > It is definitely not a good idea. It is considered spamming the search
    > engines. Search engines penalize sites in the rankings - or may drop the
    > listing altogether - if the site's content is not unique. Better to be on
    > the second page, than no page! Pick one domain name and stick with it.
    >
    > It is not the domain name that matters most when it comes to rankings, it

    is
    > the site's content.


    Thanks Denise for the quick reply.

    re: the domain name: I thought the hyphens in the new url:
    ottawa-gift-baskets would be beneficial for her keywords which are "Ottawa
    gift baskets". Is this not true ?

    Thanks again! david
    Hunter, Jan 9, 2004
    #4
  5. Hunter

    Steve R. Guest

    Denise wrote in message ...
    > It is definitely not a good idea. It is considered spamming the search
    > engines. Search engines penalize sites in the rankings - or may drop the
    > listing altogether - if the site's content is not unique.


    What evidence do you have for that?

    If small changes are made to the title, keywords and a little of the
    content, how can a search engine possibly know that it's not a completely
    different website?
    Steve R., Jan 9, 2004
    #5
  6. Hunter

    Richard Guest

    Hunter wrote:

    > Hi All -


    > I built a site for a client a couple of months ago:
    > http://www.cranberrycorners.ca/home.shtml
    > It does Ok on Google - it's usually listed on the 2nd page for her
    > keywords. So she's gone and bought a 2nd domain that is more google
    > friendly with the hopes of getting higher rankings for her site:
    > http://www.ottawa-gift-baskets.com


    > I currently have the 2nd domain parked so it is just a redirect to the
    > original site.


    > She wondered why I could not just duplicate the websites - and I could
    > not give her a good answer as to why that is not a good idea.


    > *IS* it a good idea ? Apart from me ensuring the sites are sync'd - are
    > there any issues with having this duplicate content ? I thought they may
    > fight each other for Google ranking - but what difference would that make
    > ?


    > Any advice, comments much appreciated.


    > david


    Swap the contents onto the new domain name.
    Then redirect from the original site.
    Just say "cranberry corners has moved to a new site".
    Richard, Jan 9, 2004
    #6
  7. Hunter

    Denise Guest

    "Hunter" <> wrote in message
    news:GJELb.46154$...
    >
    > "Denise" <> wrote in message
    > news:yyELb.1595$...
    > > "Hunter" <> wrote in message
    > > news:SqELb.45887$...
    > > > Hi All -
    > > >
    > > > I built a site for a client a couple of months ago:
    > > > http://www.cranberrycorners.ca/home.shtml
    > > > It does Ok on Google - it's usually listed on the 2nd page for her

    > > keywords.
    > > > So she's gone and bought a 2nd domain that is more google friendly

    with
    > > the
    > > > hopes of getting higher rankings for her site:
    > > > http://www.ottawa-gift-baskets.com
    > > >
    > > > I currently have the 2nd domain parked so it is just a redirect to the
    > > > original site.
    > > >
    > > > She wondered why I could not just duplicate the websites - and I could

    > not
    > > > give her a good answer as to why that is not a good idea.
    > > >
    > > > *IS* it a good idea ? Apart from me ensuring the sites are sync'd -

    are
    > > > there any issues with having this duplicate content ? I thought they

    may
    > > > fight each other for Google ranking - but what difference would that

    > make
    > > ?
    > > >
    > > > Any advice, comments much appreciated.
    > > >
    > > > david

    > >
    > > It is definitely not a good idea. It is considered spamming the search
    > > engines. Search engines penalize sites in the rankings - or may drop the
    > > listing altogether - if the site's content is not unique. Better to be

    on
    > > the second page, than no page! Pick one domain name and stick with it.
    > >
    > > It is not the domain name that matters most when it comes to rankings,

    it
    > is
    > > the site's content.

    >
    > Thanks Denise for the quick reply.
    >
    > re: the domain name: I thought the hyphens in the new url:
    > ottawa-gift-baskets would be beneficial for her keywords which are "Ottawa
    > gift baskets". Is this not true ?
    >
    > Thanks again! david


    Hi David,

    There may or may not be some benefit in using ottawa-gift-baets.ca instead
    of cranberrycorners.ca. Some search engines may take the domain name into
    account when determining page rank. Whether it will make much of a
    difference is debatable; it is probably pretty negligible.

    Also, hyphens can be problematic. How will you tell your customers -
    verbally - what the URL is?
    You would say: "ottawa hyphen gift hyphen baskets dot com" -- hard for folks
    to remember all those hyphens, and sounds rather generic
    But "cranberry corners dot ca" is much easier and more memorable

    Here are a couple takes on the subject:
    http://www.searchengineguide.com/whalen/2002/0627_jw1.html
    http://www.searchengineguide.com/1stsearchranking/2001/0302_1st1.html
    http://www.addme.com/issue140.htm

    My own primary website has a keyword-free name (like cranberrycorners) but
    consistently ranks in the top 1-3 results for my targeted keywords anyway -
    it is the content that got those rankings, not the domain name.

    If I were you, I'd just keep cranberrycorners.ca and optimise it for the
    search engines. There's a lot you could do to make it more search-engine
    friendly.

    Whatever you choose to do, use one domain name or the other. Using both
    would be disastrous.


    best,
    Denise
    Denise, Jan 9, 2004
    #7
  8. Hunter

    Denise Guest

    "Steve R." <stevie_ritchie(NOSPAM)@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:ATELb.11070$...
    > Denise wrote in message ...
    > > It is definitely not a good idea. It is considered spamming the search
    > > engines. Search engines penalize sites in the rankings - or may drop the
    > > listing altogether - if the site's content is not unique.

    >
    > What evidence do you have for that?
    >
    > If small changes are made to the title, keywords and a little of the
    > content, how can a search engine possibly know that it's not a completely
    > different website?
    >


    All major search engines have algorithms to check for duplicate content. If
    content is substantially the same for two websites, they may both be dropped
    substantially in the rankings, or dropped completely. This is well-known in
    the SEO world.

    Google even tells us, very directly not to post duplicate content. See:
    http://www.google.com/webmasters/guidelines.html#quality
    Other search engines have very similar guidelines.

    best,
    Denise
    Denise, Jan 9, 2004
    #8
  9. Hunter

    Hunter Guest

    "Denise" <> wrote in message
    news:eek:_ELb.1884$...
    > "Hunter" <> wrote in message
    > news:GJELb.46154$...
    > >
    > > "Denise" <> wrote in message
    > > news:yyELb.1595$...
    > > > "Hunter" <> wrote in message
    > > > news:SqELb.45887$...
    > > > > Hi All -
    > > > >
    > > > > I built a site for a client a couple of months ago:
    > > > > http://www.cranberrycorners.ca/home.shtml
    > > > > It does Ok on Google - it's usually listed on the 2nd page for her
    > > > keywords.
    > > > > So she's gone and bought a 2nd domain that is more google friendly

    > with
    > > > the
    > > > > hopes of getting higher rankings for her site:
    > > > > http://www.ottawa-gift-baskets.com
    > > > >
    > > > > I currently have the 2nd domain parked so it is just a redirect to

    the
    > > > > original site.
    > > > >
    > > > > She wondered why I could not just duplicate the websites - and I

    could
    > > not
    > > > > give her a good answer as to why that is not a good idea.
    > > > >
    > > > > *IS* it a good idea ? Apart from me ensuring the sites are sync'd -

    > are
    > > > > there any issues with having this duplicate content ? I thought they

    > may
    > > > > fight each other for Google ranking - but what difference would that

    > > make
    > > > ?
    > > > >
    > > > > Any advice, comments much appreciated.
    > > > >
    > > > > david
    > > >
    > > > It is definitely not a good idea. It is considered spamming the search
    > > > engines. Search engines penalize sites in the rankings - or may drop

    the
    > > > listing altogether - if the site's content is not unique. Better to be

    > on
    > > > the second page, than no page! Pick one domain name and stick with it.
    > > >
    > > > It is not the domain name that matters most when it comes to rankings,

    > it
    > > is
    > > > the site's content.

    > >
    > > Thanks Denise for the quick reply.
    > >
    > > re: the domain name: I thought the hyphens in the new url:
    > > ottawa-gift-baskets would be beneficial for her keywords which are

    "Ottawa
    > > gift baskets". Is this not true ?
    > >
    > > Thanks again! david

    >
    > Hi David,
    >
    > There may or may not be some benefit in using ottawa-gift-baets.ca instead
    > of cranberrycorners.ca. Some search engines may take the domain name into
    > account when determining page rank. Whether it will make much of a
    > difference is debatable; it is probably pretty negligible.
    >
    > Also, hyphens can be problematic. How will you tell your customers -
    > verbally - what the URL is?
    > You would say: "ottawa hyphen gift hyphen baskets dot com" -- hard for

    folks
    > to remember all those hyphens, and sounds rather generic
    > But "cranberry corners dot ca" is much easier and more memorable
    >
    > Here are a couple takes on the subject:
    > http://www.searchengineguide.com/whalen/2002/0627_jw1.html
    > http://www.searchengineguide.com/1stsearchranking/2001/0302_1st1.html
    > http://www.addme.com/issue140.htm
    >
    > My own primary website has a keyword-free name (like cranberrycorners) but
    > consistently ranks in the top 1-3 results for my targeted keywords

    anyway -
    > it is the content that got those rankings, not the domain name.
    >
    > If I were you, I'd just keep cranberrycorners.ca and optimise it for the
    > search engines. There's a lot you could do to make it more search-engine
    > friendly.
    >
    > Whatever you choose to do, use one domain name or the other. Using both
    > would be disastrous.
    >
    >

    Thanks again Denise.

    We were actually going use cranberrycorners.ca for marketing, promotional
    material, to verbalize the website and just use ottawa-gift-baskets for the
    search engine.

    I'll be sure to read up on the links you sent.

    Merci, david


    >
    Hunter, Jan 9, 2004
    #9
  10. Hunter

    Denise Guest

    "Steve R." <stevie_ritchie(NOSPAM)@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:ATELb.11070$...
    > Denise wrote in message ...
    > > It is definitely not a good idea. It is considered spamming the search
    > > engines. Search engines penalize sites in the rankings - or may drop the
    > > listing altogether - if the site's content is not unique.

    >
    > What evidence do you have for that?
    >
    > If small changes are made to the title, keywords and a little of the
    > content, how can a search engine possibly know that it's not a completely
    > different website?
    >


    And here is some more on duplicate content, and what the various major
    search engines have to say about it:
    http://www.seologic.com/faq/mirror-sites-pages.php

    best,
    Denise
    Denise, Jan 9, 2004
    #10
  11. Hunter

    Mike H Guest


    > All major search engines have algorithms to check for duplicate content. If
    > content is substantially the same for two websites, they may both be dropped
    > substantially in the rankings, or dropped completely. This is well-known in
    > the SEO world.
    > Google even tells us, very directly not to post duplicate content. See:
    > http://www.google.com/webmasters/guidelines.html#quality
    > Other search engines have very similar guidelines.


    They mean farms of duplicate content, which has the purpose of spamming
    the search engine. It's *NOT* spamming to have, say a backup site with the
    same content. It's not uncommon to have a backup site on another domain
    just in case the server would be down. That 's *not* a trick to fool the search
    engine and I'd be very surprised if you can proove for us that Google would
    consider such a case as "not allowed".

    /Mike
    MHC Synthesizers and Effects. http://www.mhc.se/software/plugins/
    Mike H, Jan 9, 2004
    #11
  12. Hunter

    Mike H Guest

    > And here is some more on duplicate content, and what the various major
    > search engines have to say about it:
    > http://www.seologic.com/faq/mirror-sites-pages.php
    >


    It's clearly written: "substantially duplicate content".
    Having a spare site is *not* substantially duplicate content.
    A farm of 200 sites is.
    Mike H, Jan 9, 2004
    #12
  13. Hunter

    Karim Guest

    On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 21:30:16 GMT, Denise wrote:

    > "Steve R." <stevie_ritchie(NOSPAM)@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    > news:ATELb.11070$...
    >> Denise wrote in message ...
    >>> It is definitely not a good idea. It is considered spamming the search
    >>> engines. Search engines penalize sites in the rankings - or may drop the
    >>> listing altogether - if the site's content is not unique.

    >>
    >> What evidence do you have for that?
    >>
    >> If small changes are made to the title, keywords and a little of the
    >> content, how can a search engine possibly know that it's not a completely
    >> different website?
    >>

    >
    > All major search engines have algorithms to check for duplicate content. If
    > content is substantially the same for two websites, they may both be dropped
    > substantially in the rankings, or dropped completely. This is well-known in
    > the SEO world.


    They better differentiate between two identical sites that were submitted
    to them and the case were they find the mirror site themselves.
    If I never submitted the mirror site and their spider founds it, they
    better not penalize my first site in the rankings.
    I guess I would put a robots.txt in the mirror site and tell spiders not to
    index anything.


    --
    Karim
    http://www.cheapesthosting.com - Receive 99% spam free emails
    Karim, Jan 9, 2004
    #13
  14. Hunter

    Denise Guest

    "Mike H" <> wrote in message
    news:OgFLb.64808$...
    > It's clearly written: "substantially duplicate content".
    > Having a spare site is *not* substantially duplicate content.
    > A farm of 200 sites is.


    Having a spare site which you submit to search engines is *exactly*
    duplicate content. Duplicate means just that - more than one. Don't have
    more than one site or page with the same content - that is playing with
    fire.

    The search engines simply prohibit:
    --- "duplicate site or pages" (GOOGLE:
    http://www.google.com/contact/spamreport.html)
    --- "multiple pages, subdomains, or domains with substantially duplicate
    content." (GOOGLE: http://www.google.com/webmasters/guidelines.html)
    --- "duplicate pages." (ALTA VISTA:
    http://www.altavista.com/help/search/faq_web#16)
    [They go on to say, "If you spot duplicates, please let us know by
    reporting the duplicate pages via our Email form; please select "Spam
    Reporting" in the Subject pull-down menu."]
    --- "Multiple sites offering the same content" (INKTOMI:
    http://www.inktomi.com/products/web_search/guidelines.html)

    It doesn't have to be 200 sites! Just one duplicate site is enough to hurt
    your rankings.

    If you want to keep a second site as a backup in case something dire happens
    to the first one, that's cool. Just use robots.txt to exclude it from the
    search engine robots, don't publicize it, don't link to it & don't submit it
    to search engines/directories. That way you still have your backup with no
    risk of getting one or both sites penalized.

    best,
    Denise
    Denise, Jan 9, 2004
    #14
  15. Hunter

    Bill Logan Guest

    "Denise" <> wrote in message
    news:yyELb.1595$...
    > "Hunter" <> wrote in message
    > news:SqELb.45887$...
    > > Hi All -
    > >
    > > I built a site for a client a couple of months ago:
    > > http://www.cranberrycorners.ca/home.shtml
    > > It does Ok on Google - it's usually listed on the 2nd page for her

    > keywords.
    > > So she's gone and bought a 2nd domain that is more google friendly with

    > the
    > > hopes of getting higher rankings for her site:
    > > http://www.ottawa-gift-baskets.com
    > >
    > > I currently have the 2nd domain parked so it is just a redirect to the
    > > original site.
    > >
    > > She wondered why I could not just duplicate the websites - and I could

    not
    > > give her a good answer as to why that is not a good idea.
    > >
    > > *IS* it a good idea ? Apart from me ensuring the sites are sync'd - are
    > > there any issues with having this duplicate content ? I thought they may
    > > fight each other for Google ranking - but what difference would that

    make
    > ?
    > >
    > > Any advice, comments much appreciated.
    > >
    > > david

    >
    > It is definitely not a good idea. It is considered spamming the search
    > engines. Search engines penalize sites in the rankings - or may drop the
    > listing altogether - if the site's content is not unique. Better to be on
    > the second page, than no page! Pick one domain name and stick with it.


    Well that has to be one of the best reasons I have heard so far for avoiding
    search engines.
    Who the heck do they think they are dictating to people 'do it our way or we
    wont list you'?

    Personally I find having duplicate sites with different domain names - same
    content benificial business wise. The names themselves target different
    target groups who want the same product but are attracted to buy by the site
    name.

    Thank goodness I do not depend or require visitors from search engine
    listings. I dont care if any of my sites are never found on any of them.
    While they have a use when it comes to looking for something I am begining
    to wonder how many useful sites dont get listed with the result that what is
    found may not be the option one wants.

    From what I can see, google and others refuse to list legitimate business
    sites if they want to have two with the same content yet are quite happy to
    list, and sometimes give good rankings to, web sites of a dubious nature
    such as porno, hate sites and how to make WOMD - so long as those websites
    conform to their rules - go figure!



    > It is not the domain name that matters most when it comes to rankings, it

    is
    > the site's content. Rather than messing with alternate domain names, etc.
    > work on optimizing the content - and to a lesser degree, the design - of

    the
    > site and the rankings will improve.
    >

    May be not but the domain name can be the most important thing when it comes
    down to good old fashoined marketing. Sometimes it is best to forget about
    insidious search engine rankings and concentrate on what will attractract
    customers!
    Bill Logan, Jan 10, 2004
    #15
  16. Hunter

    PeterMcC Guest

    Denise wrote:
    > "Hunter" <> wrote in message
    > news:GJELb.46154$...
    >>
    >> "Denise" <> wrote in message
    >> news:yyELb.1595$...
    >>> "Hunter" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:SqELb.45887$...
    >>>> Hi All -
    >>>>
    >>>> I built a site for a client a couple of months ago:
    >>>> http://www.cranberrycorners.ca/home.shtml
    >>>> It does Ok on Google - it's usually listed on the 2nd page for her
    >>>> keywords. So she's gone and bought a 2nd domain that is more
    >>>> google friendly

    > with
    >>> the
    >>>> hopes of getting higher rankings for her site:
    >>>> http://www.ottawa-gift-baskets.com

    <snip>
    >>>> *IS* it a good idea ? Apart from me ensuring the sites are sync'd
    >>>> - are there any issues with having this duplicate content ? I
    >>>> thought they may fight each other for Google ranking - but what
    >>>> difference would that

    >> make
    >>> ?
    >>>>
    >>>> Any advice, comments much appreciated.
    >>>>
    >>>> david
    >>>
    >>> It is definitely not a good idea. It is considered spamming the
    >>> search engines. Search engines penalize sites in the rankings - or
    >>> may drop the listing altogether - if the site's content is not
    >>> unique. Better to be on the second page, than no page! Pick one
    >>> domain name and stick with it.
    >>>
    >>> It is not the domain name that matters most when it comes to
    >>> rankings,


    Whilst the benefit of the hyphenated name is relatively small, that can be
    multiplied several times over by using absolute URLs, have a look at the
    code for:
    http://www.hotel-ireland.com/ (1st for "Ireland hotels" in Google) or
    http://www.travel-hotels-ireland.com/ - ugly - truly ugly - but effective.


    --
    PeterMcC
    If you feel that any of the above is incorrect,
    inappropriate or offensive in any way,
    please ignore it and accept my apologies.
    PeterMcC, Jan 10, 2004
    #16
  17. Hunter

    Michael Guest

    "Richard" <anonymous@127.000> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Swap the contents onto the new domain name.
    > Then redirect from the original site.
    > Just say "cranberry corners has moved to a new site".



    That solution should work for everyone. I work with a lot of mom and pop
    businesses many of which had mirror sites when I met them. They seemed to
    feel that if you build the right domain name, they will come. It seems as
    if they see domain name creation as effective marketing.

    None of these mirror sites seemed to ever have been penalized, but how would
    I know? None of them had any SEO, their efforts at internet marketing were
    directed towards creating catchy or keyword rich domain names. It was if
    they believed that people typed www.searchterm.com into the browser.

    The only solution that satisfies all is to focus SEO efforts on one site and
    redirect all the traffic attracted by other domain names to that main site.
    Most searchers wouldn't even notice.

    It is a pain to verbalize Ottawa hyphen gift hyphen baskets dot com. Use
    both domains and redirect the traffic from one to the other. I've never
    heard of a penalty for redirects.

    M
    Michael, Jan 10, 2004
    #17
    1. Advertising

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