Class.forName().newInstance() vs new

M

Michael Wojcik

lewbloch said:
There's some folks even more pedantic than I, apparently. Welcome to
the club, Michael.

Alas, I am that most unsatisfied of creatures, a pedantic
descriptivist. I am annoyed by awkward constructions but lack the
consolation of labeling them as wrong.

But then I do employ casual constructions and idiomatic expressions in
my writing (and speech) - often even in formal writing, when
appropriate for reasons of style. I was merely agreeing with John's
impulse to correct the agreement in number in his first post.
 
L

Lewis Bloch

Alas, I am that most unsatisfied of creatures, a pedantic
descriptivist. I am annoyed by awkward constructions but lack the
consolation of labeling them as wrong.

But then I do employ casual constructions and idiomatic expressions in
my writing (and speech) - often even in formal writing, when
appropriate for reasons of style. I was merely agreeing with John's
impulse to correct the agreement in number in his first post.

I mostly agree with both of you, and I particularly admire your
erudition and your richly concise expository style. Your points are
well-reasoned and your conclusions ineluctable.
 
J

John B. Matthews

The term descriptivist is new to me; thank you.


Subjectively, the impulse arose from realizing that "There's some
[plural] ..." had slipped into my writing. It sounded right, but read
wrong. The prescriptively correct contraction "There're some [plural]
...." sounds awkward with my (customary) rhotic "r", but it sounds
perfectly normal when spoken with Shelby Foote's mellifluous,
non-rhotic, Mississippi accent.
I mostly agree with both of you, and I particularly admire your
erudition and your richly concise expository style. Your points are
well-reasoned and your conclusions ineluctable.

Well said.
 
A

Arved Sandstrom

Alas, I am that most unsatisfied of creatures, a pedantic
descriptivist. I am annoyed by awkward constructions but lack the
consolation of labeling them as wrong.

But then I do employ casual constructions and idiomatic expressions in
my writing (and speech) - often even in formal writing, when
appropriate for reasons of style. I was merely agreeing with John's
impulse to correct the agreement in number in his first post.

I've been trying for years to hit the right balance in blog articles,
design documents, RFP responses, presentations, tutorials, teaching
handouts, Usenet posts and Web forum questions, and also my own writing
for pleasure (this latter itself being of many different types). All I
know for sure is that I dislike (in varying degrees) the following:

1) _excessive_ use of elaborate or unusual words: I don't believe, like
many seem to do, that every use (utilisation) of big words is an
affectation (puttin' on airs) or replaceable with a smaller, easier
word. Many of these big words actually have subtle, enhanced meanings
that their simple proposed substitutes don't. But the prerequisites for
using big words include understanding the exact meanings, knowing that
the simple word is not a close-enough substitute, and remembering to
write for the audience.

There are few things worse than an unrelenting barrage of complex,
Latin-based verbiage.

2) incorrect spelling, _particularly_ when it's obvious that it's not a
typo. Examples: "she poured over her material", "that was a breech of
security", and "the shed wreaked of gasoline". I blame lack of reading
for this problem; it's not possible to make these mistakes (or for that
matter, to be a bad speller, period) if you read voraciously.

3) writing without a plan: a disorganized and tenuous grasp of facts and
conclusions in one's head translates to an equivalent mess on paper. The
act of writing does not improve the material.

4) using language as a nefarious tool: this technique often makes use of
my first point. It also employs skillful tense and pronoun and adjective
selections to divert and diffuse responsibility, or to disguise a lack
of real content.

There is no shortage of software consultancies that do exactly this, and
it gets really horrendous when the clients are government departments.
I'll produce one common example - a notional consultancy is called upon
to produce a software design document. You and I, being software
developers, would like to think that technical people are the audience
for such a document, and that technical people pronounce on the
acceptability of the finished version. Such is rarely the case - the
authoring consultancy produces beautiful but vapid high-level bumwipe
that is presented to the PMs and higher, and approved by higher client
management. Little matter that it's a useless design document devoid of
concrete information that would help implementors.

Even better, when the project fails, weasel-English can now be used to
blame the _implementors_. The typical design doc I've seen parrots the
*business* requirements (few clients know what technical requirements
are) and pads out the design with some pretty but fairly useless UML.
But all the PMs and client managers understood and liked this design doc
- still do - and they _approved_ it, so clearly the coders must be at
fault. It's the _coders_ that don't get the design doc. Right?

In fact there's nothing there to get, but the bosses don't want to hear
that.

I had the pleasure some months back of being commissioned to do 20 days
worth of work writing up a detailed design document in such an
environment. Normally for this client I do maintenance rescue coding,
but in this case the problem was complex and actually required a
developer - not a BA - to do the design. At the end of the 20 days I had
not only a clear and concise *real* detailed design document - one that
another developer could use - but also a working POC of the
solution...which hadn't even been expected by the client. It hadn't been
expected mainly because the other software consultancies are loaded with
PMs, BAs and mediocre coders, so the clients aren't used to adequate
performance.

The best measure of this detailed design document that I produced is
that, in marked contrast to the usual design docs that floated around
that office, the higher up the food chain you went with it, the less
people were able to understand it. Any other coder, excellent grasp of
what I wrote. An architect, not so good, because a lot of architects are
not good coders (in my experience). PMs and mid-level managers, serious
struggling. High-level managers and directors, hang it up - you read the
executive summary I prepared.

The point being, I've found that obfuscatory English is used as a weapon
to disguise incompetence and inefficiencies, or worse. I've seen some
pretty horrible wastage of taxpayer money precisely because muddy and
weaselly English let all the players wriggle out of accountability, and
often enough even get rewarded for their previous disaster.

So that's why I like clear English.

AHS
 
B

blmblm

lewbloch said:
There's some
There are some
"There's some [plural] ..." is quite common in idiomatic American.

True, which is an argument for avoiding it (or correcting it, as John
did in his edit).

Though it's not quite as grating as, say, the use of "would" to
indicate the subjunctive mood. ("If I would have knowed there's some
cupcakes, I would have totally ate them all.")

Sing it.

Me and you agree about that. (I hope I won't regret posting a sentence
I can hardly type without wincing.)
Your comments are appropriate for formal writing. Usenet is
conversational, ergo one should accept idiomatic expressions.
Otherwise we'd insist that no one use "doubt" to mean a mere question
without suspicion.

Oh, but some people do (insist .... ) -- there's been a recent thread
in comp.lang.c in which a few speakers of the non-Indian Englishes
have tried to object to use of "doubt" to mean "question". I doubt
they'll succeed said:
I do aver that one should spell nouns, particularly proper nouns,
correctly in technical speech, which this is for all its informality,
and it only makes sense to spell the first-person singular nominative
pronoun in English correctly as it's short enough to remember.

There's some folks even more pedantic than I, apparently.

*Oh* yes, though some of us aren't quite as vocal about our pedantry.
 
B

blmblm

[ snip ]
I've been trying for years to hit the right balance in blog articles,
design documents, RFP responses, presentations, tutorials, teaching
handouts, Usenet posts and Web forum questions, and also my own writing
for pleasure (this latter itself being of many different types). All I
know for sure is that I dislike (in varying degrees) the following:

[ snip lots of interesting digression ]
2) incorrect spelling, _particularly_ when it's obvious that it's not a
typo. Examples: "she poured over her material", "that was a breech of
security", and "the shed wreaked of gasoline".

*Oh* yes. EIther mistakes of this kind have become more common in
recent years -- *even in prose that one would think had been reviewed
by someone with copyediting experience* -- or I'm noticing them more.
I blame lack of reading
for this problem; it's not possible to make these mistakes (or for that
matter, to be a bad speller, period) if you read voraciously.

You think? I sometimes wonder if some people's brains are wired to
care about spelling, and others' aren't. I'm in the former group,
and indeed find that unless I know how a word is spelled it's somehow
not real to me. I don't have that problem with words whose spelling
I know but whose pronunciation I'm unsure of. I wonder, though,
whether there are people for whom exactly the reverse is true.

I also wonder whether reading voraciously even helps, given that more
and more one can't rely on published prose to be correct.

Sigh.

[ snip ]
The best measure of this detailed design document that I produced is
that, in marked contrast to the usual design docs that floated around
that office, the higher up the food chain you went with it, the less
people were able to understand it.

"Less" or "fewer"? (You probably do mean "less", but the widespread
practice of using the former to mean the latter means that one can't
really be sure, maybe.)

[ snip ]
 
M

Martin Gregorie

You think? I sometimes wonder if some people's brains are wired to care
about spelling, and others' aren't.
I'm with Arved here: quite a lot of mistakes would appear to indicate the
author is an almost illiterate person who listens more than he reads, e.g
writing 'your' instead of 'you're'. A lot of the more (to me) irritating
habits are probably the result of not realising that spoken idiom differs
from written, e.g. using 'of' in place of 'with' - this seems to be a
North American habit.
 
M

Martin Gregorie

Oh, but some people do (insist .... ) -- there's been a recent thread in
comp.lang.c in which a few speakers of the non-Indian Englishes have
tried to object to use of "doubt" to mean "question". I doubt they'll
succeed, but -- <shrug>.
Indian English is still heavily influenced by Victorian English,
especially their conversational forms. Along with railways and the postal
system, Victorian english is one of the main legacies of the Raj.
 
G

Gene Wirchenko

On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 10:19:06 -0300, Arved Sandstrom

[snip]
I've been trying for years to hit the right balance in blog articles,
design documents, RFP responses, presentations, tutorials, teaching
handouts, Usenet posts and Web forum questions, and also my own writing
for pleasure (this latter itself being of many different types). All I

[nice stuff snipped]
I had the pleasure some months back of being commissioned to do 20 days
worth of work writing up a detailed design document in such an
environment. Normally for this client I do maintenance rescue coding,
but in this case the problem was complex and actually required a
developer - not a BA - to do the design. At the end of the 20 days I had
not only a clear and concise *real* detailed design document - one that
another developer could use - but also a working POC of the
^^^
What is this, please?
solution...which hadn't even been expected by the client. It hadn't been
expected mainly because the other software consultancies are loaded with
PMs, BAs and mediocre coders, so the clients aren't used to adequate
performance.

[more nice stuff snipped]
So that's why I like clear English.

I am rather fond of it myself.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
 
A

Arved Sandstrom

On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 10:19:06 -0300, Arved Sandstrom

[snip]
I've been trying for years to hit the right balance in blog articles,
design documents, RFP responses, presentations, tutorials, teaching
handouts, Usenet posts and Web forum questions, and also my own writing
for pleasure (this latter itself being of many different types). All I

[nice stuff snipped]
I had the pleasure some months back of being commissioned to do 20 days
worth of work writing up a detailed design document in such an
environment. Normally for this client I do maintenance rescue coding,
but in this case the problem was complex and actually required a
developer - not a BA - to do the design. At the end of the 20 days I had
not only a clear and concise *real* detailed design document - one that
another developer could use - but also a working POC of the
^^^
What is this, please?

Ah, sorry, "proof of concept". POC = Proof Of Concept; POT = Proof Of
Technology.

[ SNIP ]

AHS
 
A

Arved Sandstrom

Arved Sandstrom <[email protected]> wrote:
[ SNIP ]
The best measure of this detailed design document that I produced is
that, in marked contrast to the usual design docs that floated around
that office, the higher up the food chain you went with it, the less
people were able to understand it.

"Less" or "fewer"? (You probably do mean "less", but the widespread
practice of using the former to mean the latter means that one can't
really be sure, maybe.)

[ snip ]

I did mean less, but by definition you also would have had fewer people
able to understand it. :)

AHS
 
B

blmblm

I'm with Arved here: quite a lot of mistakes would appear to indicate the
author is an almost illiterate person who listens more than he reads, e.g
writing 'your' instead of 'you're'. A lot of the more (to me) irritating
habits are probably the result of not realising that spoken idiom differs
from written, e.g. using 'of' in place of 'with' - this seems to be a
North American habit.

Say what .... Can you give an example of that ('of' instead of
'with')?
 
G

Gene Wirchenko

[snip]
I'm with Arved here: quite a lot of mistakes would appear to indicate the
author is an almost illiterate person who listens more than he reads, e.g
writing 'your' instead of 'you're'. A lot of the more (to me) irritating
habits are probably the result of not realising that spoken idiom differs
from written, e.g. using 'of' in place of 'with' - this seems to be a
North American habit.

Say what .... Can you give an example of that ('of' instead of
'with')?

Perhaps, it is that you should of [sic] realised that he meant
using "of" instead of "have"?

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
 
T

Tom Anderson

Arved Sandstrom <[email protected]> wrote:
[ SNIP ]
"Less" or "fewer"? (You probably do mean "less", but the widespread
practice of using the former to mean the latter means that one can't
really be sure, maybe.)

I did mean less, but by definition you also would have had fewer people
able to understand it. :)

This less/fewer thing is largely dubious:

http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/495/less-vs-fewer/505#505

I don't think it's defensible to say that Arved's sentence was incorrect.
Lots of people might not write it that way, but lots would, and everyone
understands it.

tom
 
A

Arved Sandstrom

Arved Sandstrom <[email protected]> wrote:
[ SNIP ]
The best measure of this detailed design document that I produced is
that, in marked contrast to the usual design docs that floated around
that office, the higher up the food chain you went with it, the less
people were able to understand it.

"Less" or "fewer"? (You probably do mean "less", but the widespread
practice of using the former to mean the latter means that one can't
really be sure, maybe.)

I did mean less, but by definition you also would have had fewer
people able to understand it. :)

This less/fewer thing is largely dubious:

http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/495/less-vs-fewer/505#505

I don't think it's defensible to say that Arved's sentence was
incorrect. Lots of people might not write it that way, but lots would,
and everyone understands it.

tom
In fact, in the original construction, if I had written

"the fewer people were able to understand it"

that would have been stilted and wrong. It's the "the" there that makes
all the difference. I could have written

"...went with it, fewer people were able to understand it."

and that would be OK (if still marginally US Constitution-sounding like).

"The less" in my construction actually operates as a single unit.
Although I'm not sure what part of a sentence it corresponds to.

AHS
 
M

Michael Wojcik

Arved said:
The point being, I've found that obfuscatory English is used as a weapon
to disguise incompetence and inefficiencies, or worse. I've seen some
pretty horrible wastage of taxpayer money precisely because muddy and
weaselly English let all the players wriggle out of accountability, and
often enough even get rewarded for their previous disaster.

So that's why I like clear English.

This worry is ancient, of course, if we can substitute other languages
for English.

It's the overt root of the battle between the Periclean rhetors
(Plato, Socrates, Isocrates) and the Sophists: the Pericleans claimed
that ethics was inherent in rhetoric, and so using language to
persuade to an incorrect end was an unethical use of language (and not
just an unethical act in general), while the Sophists argued that it
was fine to formulate an argument in favor of an unethical end, if
your broader purpose was good.[1,2]

This argument over the coupling of rhetoric and ethics is older than
the ancient Greek rhetors - you can find versions of it in various
ancient cultures [3] - and it continues to this day [4].

But whether you think ethics inheres in rhetoric (like Plato) or not
(like Gorgias), you can dislike ill uses of rhetoric, of course.


[1] The classic example is the Sophist Gorgias' "Encomium of Helen", a
fairly short and entertaining essay about why Helen of Troy was a
pretty good kid after all, and not the villain traditional Athenian
lore made her out to be.

[2] The *covert* reason for the acrimony between the Pericleans and
the Sophists was that the latter were foreigners, come to Athens to
steal all the good rhetoric jobs. Periclean Athens did not have a
limit on H1-B visas.

[3] I think there's at least one example in the collection _Rhetoric
Before and Beyond the Greeks_, but it's too hot to go dig that out
right now.

[4] A well-known recent example is Katz's work on the rhetoric
employed in technical documents by Nazi scientists.[5]

[5] ObAntiGodwin: Note that there is no *comparison* to Nazis, etc,
here, so Godwin's Law does not apply.
 
J

John B. Matthews

Arved Sandstrom said:
On 11-06-20 04:19 PM, (e-mail address removed) wrote:
[ SNIP ]

The best measure of this detailed design document that I
produced is that, in marked contrast to the usual design docs
that floated around that office, the higher up the food chain
you went with it, the less people were able to understand it.

"Less" or "fewer"? (You probably do mean "less", but the
widespread practice of using the former to mean the latter means
that one can't really be sure, maybe.)

I did mean less, but by definition you also would have had fewer
people able to understand it. :)

This less/fewer thing is largely dubious:

http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/495/less-vs-fewer/505#505

I don't think it's defensible to say that Arved's sentence was
incorrect. Lots of people might not write it that way, but lots
would, and everyone understands it.
In fact, in the original construction, if I had written

"the fewer people were able to understand it"

that would have been stilted and wrong. It's the "the" there that
makes all the difference. I could have written

"...went with it, fewer people were able to understand it."

and that would be OK (if still marginally US Constitution-sounding
like).

"The less" in my construction actually operates as a single unit.
Although I'm not sure what part of a sentence it corresponds to.

I read "less" as an adverb modifying "able", moved to enhance
parallelism: "The higher ... the less able ..."
 
T

Tom Anderson

Arved Sandstrom said:
On Mon, 20 Jun 2011, Arved Sandstrom wrote:

On 11-06-20 04:19 PM, (e-mail address removed) wrote:
[ SNIP ]

The best measure of this detailed design document that I
produced is that, in marked contrast to the usual design docs
that floated around that office, the higher up the food chain
you went with it, the less people were able to understand it.

"Less" or "fewer"? (You probably do mean "less", but the
widespread practice of using the former to mean the latter means
that one can't really be sure, maybe.)

I did mean less, but by definition you also would have had fewer
people able to understand it. :)

This less/fewer thing is largely dubious:

http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/495/less-vs-fewer/505#505

I don't think it's defensible to say that Arved's sentence was
incorrect. Lots of people might not write it that way, but lots
would, and everyone understands it.
In fact, in the original construction, if I had written

"the fewer people were able to understand it"

that would have been stilted and wrong. It's the "the" there that
makes all the difference. I could have written

"...went with it, fewer people were able to understand it."

and that would be OK (if still marginally US Constitution-sounding
like).

"The less" in my construction actually operates as a single unit.
Although I'm not sure what part of a sentence it corresponds to.

I read "less" as an adverb modifying "able", moved to enhance
parallelism: "The higher ... the less able ..."

As in "... the degree to which people were able to understand it was
less". Yes, Arved was entirely right the first time.

Now, on reading your rephrasing, it sounds like you're implying that as
you move higher, the people get less able!

tom
 
B

blmblm

Arved said:
The point being, I've found that obfuscatory English is used as a weapon
to disguise incompetence and inefficiencies, or worse. I've seen some
pretty horrible wastage of taxpayer money precisely because muddy and
weaselly English let all the players wriggle out of accountability, and
often enough even get rewarded for their previous disaster.

So that's why I like clear English.

This worry is ancient, of course, if we can substitute other languages
for English.

It's the overt root of the battle between the Periclean rhetors
(Plato, Socrates, Isocrates) and the Sophists: the Pericleans claimed
that ethics was inherent in rhetoric, and so using language to
persuade to an incorrect end was an unethical use of language (and not
just an unethical act in general), while the Sophists argued that it
was fine to formulate an argument in favor of an unethical end, if
your broader purpose was good.[1,2]

This argument over the coupling of rhetoric and ethics is older than
the ancient Greek rhetors - you can find versions of it in various
ancient cultures [3] - and it continues to this day [4].

Someone should perhaps mention, in this context, George Orwell's essay
"Politics and the English Language" [*]? one of my favorites, which
seems to make a similar connection between language and ethics.

[*] I'd say "GIYF", but maybe it would be worthwhile for me to save
people a bit of time .... Good heavens, there's a Wikipedia article!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_and_the_English_Language

with links at the bottom to several versions of the original text.

[ snip ]
 

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