Desktop GUI apps in Ruby

[Marnen Laibow-Koser]

Hi folks!

I'm an experienced Rails developer, but for once this is not a Rails
question. Rather, I have a desktop app I'd like to create -- we're
talking something like a spreadsheet-type app, though not quite. Since
I've been using Ruby more than any other language for the last 2 years,
and since I love working in Ruby, I'd like to try to write the app in
Ruby to the extent possible.

Since this is meant as an end-user productivity application for
nontechnical users, and since I'd like the barriers to use of this app
to be as low as possible, I have a couple of requirements:
* Must run on Linux, Mac OS X, and Windows, preferably with a minimum of
hassle in the build process
* Must install with a minimum of extra dependencies -- ideally I'd like
people to be able to download an executable, unzip it, and run it
immediately, without needing administrator permissions
* Should feel as much like a native app as possible -- I don't want
users to have to deal with an alien UI

I suppose I could go the RIA route, but I tend to think a native app
would be better...

So...does anyone have any suggestions for a good way to do this in Ruby?
My thought process so far has been about like this -- feel free to
correct me on anything I got wrong.

* RubyCocoa: would be my first choice if I didn't care about
cross-platform compatibility, but I don't think I can expect to run a
RubyCocoa app on anything but Mac OS and maybe GnuStep
* Ruby/Tk, Ruby/Qt: I'm under the impression that these tend to need big
library installations, especially on Windows. Is that correct?
* wxRuby: Don't know a heck of a lot about it
* Shoes? Is that still around now that Why has vanished? Is it worth
using?
* JRuby/RJB: at the moment, seems like the best choice (as much as I get
annoyed by working with Java). Is that an accurate assessment? If so,
what tends to get used for GUI libraryies? Swing/Monkeybars/Profligacy?
* Any other suggestions?

I hope I'm not being too idiotic here. I don't know nearly as much as I
should about the current state of desktop GUI app development in Ruby,
and I'd like to fix that! Thanks.

Best,

 

[Joel VanderWerf]

* Any other suggestions?

Consider FXRuby, too. It has a nice table widget, and (IIRC) FXRuby
comes with the ruby windows installer, so there's one less thing to set
up. (If not, you can just gem install it.)

 

[Marnen Laibow-Koser]

Consider FXRuby, too.

I'll check it out; thanks for the suggestion.

It has a nice table widget, and (IIRC) FXRuby
comes with the ruby windows installer, so there's one less thing to set
up.

I don't care so much about "one less thing to set up" for development as
I do about not burdening the end user. (And anyway, I'm not using
Windows.) How is FXRuby on this score?

(If not, you can just gem install it.)

Best,

 

[Joel VanderWerf]

I don't care so much about "one less thing to set up" for development as
I do about not burdening the end user. (And anyway, I'm not using
Windows.) How is FXRuby on this score?

At worst you would either have an install script that does "gem install
fxruby" after ruby itself is installed, or you could try to package a
complete system using something like rubyscript2exe (google
"rubyscript2exe fxruby"). There's also exerb, which the author of FXRuby
has used
(http://lylejohnson.name/blog/2008/12/30/building-standalone-fxruby-applications-with-exerb/).

 

[James Britt]

* JRuby/RJB: at the moment, seems like the best choice (as much as I get
annoyed by working with Java). Is that an accurate assessment? If so,
what tends to get used for GUI libraryies? Swing/Monkeybars/Profligacy?

This is your best route, offering fast, robust cross-platform
development with solid GUI components.

Use Monkeybars (or, if adventurous, Jimpanzee) with Rawr (for
beautifully simple application packaging).


BTW, using those tools, the amount of Java you'll need to write is
approximately zero.

--
James Britt

www.jamesbritt.com - Playing with Better Toys
www.ruby-doc.org - Ruby Help & Documentation
www.rubystuff.com - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff
www.neurogami.com - Smart application development

 

[Martin DeMello]

* RubyCocoa: would be my first choice if I didn't care about
cross-platform compatibility, but I don't think I can expect to run a
RubyCocoa app on anything but Mac OS and maybe GnuStep
* Ruby/Tk, Ruby/Qt: I'm under the impression that these tend to need big
library installations, especially on Windows. =A0Is that correct?
* wxRuby: Don't know a heck of a lot about it
* Shoes? =A0Is that still around now that Why has vanished? =A0Is it wort= h
using?
* JRuby/RJB: at the moment, seems like the best choice (as much as I get
annoyed by working with Java). =A0Is that an accurate assessment? =A0If s= o,
what tends to get used for GUI libraryies? =A0Swing/Monkeybars/Profligacy= ?
* Any other suggestions?

* Bowline http://leadthinking.com/191-bowline-a-ruby-gui-framework is
an option too, if you want another point on the spectrum between RIA
and native.
* JRuby/Glimmer uses SWT, so you'll get your native widgets.
* Ruby/QT4 would be my first choice if I knew I was just going to be
deploying on linux, but when I asked in a recent thread, no one had
any experience packaging and deploying it on windows. If you do go
this route and get a windows executable up and running, I'd love to
hear from you.

martin

 

[Marnen Laibow-Koser]

This is your best route, offering fast, robust cross-platform
development with solid GUI components.

That was my impression.

Use Monkeybars (or, if adventurous, Jimpanzee) with Rawr (for
beautifully simple application packaging).

Of course, you *would* say that.

(Actually, seeing your name on Monkeybars was one of the things that
made me think it was worth serious consideration.)

BTW, using those tools, the amount of Java you'll need to write is
approximately zero.

Great! As I said, I *can* write Java, but the language annoys me.

--
James Britt

www.jamesbritt.com - Playing with Better Toys
www.ruby-doc.org - Ruby Help & Documentation
www.rubystuff.com - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff
www.neurogami.com - Smart application development

Best,

 

[Marnen Laibow-Koser]

* Bowline http://leadthinking.com/191-bowline-a-ruby-gui-framework is
an option too, if you want another point on the spectrum between RIA
and native.

Very interesting. I think for this particular project, I don't want to
use HTML and JS for the UI, but I can imagine other projects that
Bowline would be great for!

* JRuby/Glimmer uses SWT, so you'll get your native widgets.

Thanks. I never heard of Glimmer; I'll look it up.

* Ruby/QT4 would be my first choice if I knew I was just going to be
deploying on linux, but when I asked in a recent thread, no one had
any experience packaging and deploying it on windows. If you do go
this route and get a windows executable up and running, I'd love to
hear from you.

Oy. Not this project, then. Although I don't use Windows myself, the
nature of what I'm doing is such that it really has to run everywhere it
can.

martin

Best,

 

[Martin DeMello]

Oy. =A0Not this project, then. =A0Although I don't use Windows myself, th= e
nature of what I'm doing is such that it really has to run everywhere it
can.

I don't wish to spread FUD, so please note that I'm *not* saying that
QtRuby doesn't work on windows, just that I do not personally have
access to a windows machine to test it out, and have not heard from
anyone who has packaged it.

martin

 

[Marnen Laibow-Koser]

I don't wish to spread FUD, so please note that I'm *not* saying that
QtRuby doesn't work on windows, just that I do not personally have
access to a windows machine to test it out, and have not heard from
anyone who has packaged it.
OK.


martin

Best,

 

[Marnen Laibow-Koser]

This is your best route, offering fast, robust cross-platform
development with solid GUI components.

Use Monkeybars (or, if adventurous, Jimpanzee) with Rawr (for
beautifully simple application packaging).

[...]

At this point, it looks like I'll probably use Monkeybars and JRuby for
this project. But...what about wxRuby and Shoes? I understand Shoes
was very popular for a while at least, and I like wxRuby's lack of
reliance on JVMs, yet I notice no one recommended these. Are there
problems that I'm not aware of, or is that simply coincidental?

(Yes, I realize I may just have to play around with these all and find
out. I'm just trying to get off the ground as quickly as possible.)

Best,

 

[Marnen Laibow-Koser]

Marnen Laibow-Koser wrote:
[...]

At this point, it looks like I'll probably use Monkeybars and JRuby for
this project. But...what about wxRuby and Shoes? I understand Shoes
was very popular for a while at least, and I like wxRuby's lack of
reliance on JVMs, yet I notice no one recommended these. Are there
problems that I'm not aware of, or is that simply coincidental?

Never mind. I just realized that these will not be feasible for the
current project because they will require a Ruby interpreter, and I
don't want to even expect that my end-users will have *that*! (I'm
targeting, among others, educational and corporate users who don't have
admin rights and wouldn't know what to do with them if they had.)
Monkeybars it is, then.

 

[James Britt]

Never mind. I just realized that these will not be feasible for the
current project because they will require a Ruby interpreter, and I
don't want to even expect that my end-users will have *that*! (I'm
targeting, among others, educational and corporate users who don't have
admin rights and wouldn't know what to do with them if they had.)
Monkeybars it is, then.

Users will still have to have Java installed to use a JRuby app.



--
James Britt

www.jamesbritt.com - Playing with Better Toys
www.ruby-doc.org - Ruby Help & Documentation
www.rubystuff.com - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff
www.neurogami.com - Smart application development

 

[Marnen Laibow-Koser]

James Britt wrote:
[...]

Users will still have to have Java installed to use a JRuby app.

I know, but I think I can rely on that. Have you seen a computer
without a JVM lately?

--
James Britt

www.jamesbritt.com - Playing with Better Toys
www.ruby-doc.org - Ruby Help & Documentation
www.rubystuff.com - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff
www.neurogami.com - Smart application development

Best,

 

[Alex Fenton]

Since this is meant as an end-user productivity application for
nontechnical users, and since I'd like the barriers to use of this app
to be as low as possible, I have a couple of requirements:
* Must run on Linux, Mac OS X, and Windows, preferably with a minimum of
hassle in the build process
* Must install with a minimum of extra dependencies -- ideally I'd like
people to be able to download an executable, unzip it, and run it
immediately, without needing administrator permissions
* Should feel as much like a native app as possible -- I don't want
users to have to deal with an alien UI

You'll have realised that there are a number of GUI packages which
potentially meet your requirements, though none is perfect; be skeptical
of anyone that says the particular one they're cheering is, without
reservation, 'the best' or 'the only'.

As an alternative to single posts which tell you which GUI package that
author happens to like, you may find this 2008 survey of around 400 ruby
programmers specifically on GUI programming in Ruby of interest:

http://www.pressure.to/ruby_gui_survey/

I wouldn't say that being most used or most preferred is an indicator of
which is best; lack of knowledge and inertia play a part. But you might
assume that the most-used cross-platform GUI packages (Ruby-GNOME2,
Shoes, wxRuby) are used for a reason, and start by evaluating some of them.

Bera in mind that Swing/Monkeybars may be disadvantaged in the poll by
being tied to a less-used interpreter. But Swing/Monkeybars gets a good
deal of regular promotion to compensate.

cheers
alex

 

[Marnen Laibow-Koser]

Alex Fenton wrote:
[...]

You'll have realised that there are a number of GUI packages which
potentially meet your requirements, though none is perfect; be skeptical
of anyone that says the particular one they're cheering is, without
reservation, 'the best' or 'the only'.

Oh, of course. I just wanted to get a sense of what was being used and
how people felt about it.

As an alternative to single posts which tell you which GUI package that
author happens to like, you may find this 2008 survey of around 400 ruby
programmers specifically on GUI programming in Ruby of interest:

http://www.pressure.to/ruby_gui_survey/

Yes, I found that. It's fascinating and useful.

I wouldn't say that being most used or most preferred is an indicator of
which is best; lack of knowledge and inertia play a part. But you might
assume that the most-used cross-platform GUI packages (Ruby-GNOME2,
Shoes, wxRuby) are used for a reason, and start by evaluating some of
them.

I did check them out. None seems right for this project, but I will
absolutely keep Shoes and wx in mind for future work.

Bera in mind that Swing/Monkeybars may be disadvantaged in the poll by
being tied to a less-used interpreter. But Swing/Monkeybars gets a good
deal of regular promotion to compensate.

In this case, I think being tied to JRuby may actually be an advantage.
It's the only way I can see to have a cross-platform, easily
distributable Ruby application. And it seems like both wxRuby and Shoes
depend too much on native extensions to work with JRuby, and depend too
much on MRI to distribute to general users. If I'm wrong on either of
those, please correct me.

cheers
alex

Best,

 

[Alex Fenton]

In this case, I think being tied to JRuby may actually be an advantage.
It's the only way I can see to have a cross-platform, easily
distributable Ruby application. And it seems like both wxRuby and Shoes
depend too much on native extensions to work with JRuby, and depend too
much on MRI to distribute to general users.

Yes, I think you're right here. It's possible to create fully native
packages using wxRuby etc, but there's no single cross-platform tool
like RAWR. You have to use a mix of tools, eg Ocra for Windows, Platypus
for OS X. RAWR is a credit to the developers.

a

 

[Will Parsons]

James Britt wrote:
[...]

Users will still have to have Java installed to use a JRuby app.

I know, but I think I can rely on that. Have you seen a computer
without a JVM lately?

Yes. I'm working on one right now. If you want maximum cross-platform,
you shouldn't rely on having Java.

 

[Marnen Laibow-Koser]

James Britt wrote:
[...]

Users will still have to have Java installed to use a JRuby app.

I know, but I think I can rely on that. Have you seen a computer
without a JVM lately?

Yes. I'm working on one right now.

Really? Under what circumstances? Even "can't-change-anything"
corporate deployments tend to have a usable JVM.

If you want maximum cross-platform,
you shouldn't rely on having Java.

Got a better idea, short of dropping Ruby for this project? Native
packaging on wx?

Best,

 

[gregarican]

James Britt wrote:
[...]

Users will still have to have Java installed to use a JRuby app.

I know, but I think I can rely on that.  Have you seen a computer
without a JVM lately?

Yes.  I'm working on one right now.  If you want maximum cross-platform,
you shouldn't rely on having Java.

Just hopping on this thread after reading through the various takes on
things. For me, I love using Ruby for quick and dirty scripting. The
language itself is compact, intuitive, and doesn't clutter up my
coding needlessly. But one of the big frustrations I've experienced in
the past is trying to come up with a GUI app using it. This started
back about 5 years ago now, when I was looking out there at the
various Ruby GUI toolkits. Trying them out, none of them really seemed
to reach out and grab me. Took the wind out of my sails for sure.

When I think of GUI programming and using an IDE for such I think of
drag and drop widgets, automated event bindings, etc. But after
banging my head against my desk I had to resort to my tried and true
Visual Studio install using Visual C#. The language itself isn't
nearly as clean and elegant, but the tight GUI development environment
is a hands-down favorite. Just wish that Ruby could have the same
luxury. Ruby in Steel is something that's close, and I've looked at
that in the past. But then again the GUI toolkit components aren't
there, and that's the driving force behind why I would use Visual
Studio in the first place :-/

Since Ruby took a good amount of its inspiration and foundation in
Smalltalk, I'd look at that as an example where a dynamic programming
language can have a tightly integrated GUI development environment and
pull it off well. It is possible, and to me that is one of the main
things holding Ruby back from "the big time" in terms of standing toe
to toe against Java, C#, and other languages.

My US $0.02 at least