do serious programmers have a life?

[Phlip]

My sleep depravation is not from not staying in bed; I just don't sleep
well and hence require longer hours to stay in bed to feel rested.
Being in school, sleep deprivation is a routine as I must finish
homework, project. Feel like a robot and I am wondering thinking that
with "I need to learn this", "I need to lean that", when will I ever
not be like a robot?

School is different; it's supposed to rot your brain.

In work, you should be accomplishing one small feature of one big program,
over and over again. This is fulfilling and good for you; it won't feel the
same.

Wondering whether I should use my previous degree/education (Chemistry)
and get into teaching (it would be part-time at a college as I am doing
now unless I work at multiple college teaching different courses to get
full time hours which is not appealing to me OR teach high school which
I don't want to do at this point in my life) and have some sort of a
life

Move to a country where they treat teachers as professionals. Move out of
any country that's doing everything it can to rapidly lose its status as a
superpower...

stick with programming and get into the field. I have become interested
in bioinformatics and talked with someone from the field. Needless to
say, I need to make time to study Molecular Biology (will not go to
Bioinformatics degree program) which does take time though I prefer to
spend time building my programming skills (in scripting - Perl is the
langauge inthat area - or Database (would require high level skills
and I am nowhere near that yet) ).

Bioinformatics is booming due to the wide number of different systems it
covers, each bringing its own computational complexities.

Currently, I am taking Data structure (using C++). Have taken Java
acouple of years ago. So thinking about spending time on the things I
need to learn makes me feel like I will live have to like a robot.

I ended up posting this in C++ group because I was looking for the C++
question I posted a few days ago. Can't find it but problem is solved.

C++ and Java suck. Learn TDD and Ruby. You will never look back. And Python
(a competitor to Ruby) is _huge_ in Bioinformatics.

 

[Default User]

[..]

Don't feed the trolls, blah blah blah.

But it's such fun once in a while, especially for those who have
little life outside of an immediate vicinity of their keyboards, no?

Apparently so.




Brian

 

[Ed Prochak]

How many hours do you work?

The myth that programmers can or should work more than 8 hours a day is
tragic, and is responsible for an incredible amount of lost productivity,
bugs, etc. (But heck, at least we don't cut off the wrong limb like
overworked doctors do...)

tell that to the victims of the Therac 25. Software is used in safety
critical systems (e.g., Airbus fly-by-wire). Some systems can kill.

When you work, as you get tired, you cross a point where you are not adding
value but removing value from a program. Go home.
yes!


Programmers should go home on time and have a life.

Programming does not mean being glued to a keyboard. I know programmers
that play music, or mountain climb, or have families, or many other
things.

My self: I also sing in church choir, go running, do chores at home
(currently staining my deck), as well as a little programming.

So like the Karate kid, you need Balance!

enjoy,
ed

 

[Victor Bazarov]

[...]
My self: I also sing in church choir, go running, do chores at home
(currently staining my deck), [...]

That's a blatant lie! Currently you were reading, and replying to,
a newsgroup! It's like I'd say that currently I'm compiling my
project. Not! It's the compiler who's compiling. I am typing this
message.

 

[Default User]

[...]
My self: I also sing in church choir, go running, do chores at home
(currently staining my deck), [...]

That's a blatant lie! Currently you were reading, and replying to,
a newsgroup! It's like I'd say that currently I'm compiling my
project. Not! It's the compiler who's compiling. I am typing this
message.

http://www.comics.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert2005016279923.gif



Brian

 

[Randy Howard]

Phlip wrote

How many hours do you work?

The myth that programmers can or should work more than 8 hours a day is
tragic, and is responsible for an incredible amount of lost productivity,
bugs, etc.

Oh bull. The myth that humans can only work 40 hours a week
(and wishing for 32) without losing productivity is socialist
claptrap.

If you can't work 12 hours a day or more without having problems
then you have a medical condition and should seek attention.
More importantly, you do not need 2 or 3 days off a week to stay
healthy.

You may not get to spend 4 hours every night watching TV and
swilling beer while watching reality TV, or spend all day
saturday watching college athletes run around, then all day
Sunday watching grown men do the same thing. If you can watch
football 8 hours a day, then you can damn sure do real work for
12.

Sure, it's nice to have time off, and it's nice to do things
other than programming. I wouldn't want to work 120 hour weeks
all year long, but doing it for a short term when needed is not
the end of the world. I'll tell you one thing for sure, if I am
on a team project with you, and we have work to do, and you go
home to ride your bicycle while others on the team keep rowing,
you better not come back and expect any respect, or even to keep
your job.

I am not referring to chronically mismanaged businesses that
expect that 52 weeks a year. Professionals do what it takes to
accomplish the goals, just as doctors work triple shifts during
emergencies. Spineless windbags complain about their 'free
time' and go home early when crunch time arrives.

When you work, as you get tired, you cross a point where you are not adding
value but removing value from a program. Go home.

And that point is not at 5:01pm for most people. If it is for
you, then you probably weren't of any value at 8:01am either.
Just stay home and let people that contribute have more office
space.

Programmers should go home on time and have a life.

And now you know why all the work is being outsourced.

 

[Randy Howard]

Phlip wrote

The occassional inspiration-driven all-nighter is mostly harmless.

Staying up all night every night and sleeping during the day is
mostly harmless too.

The original poster reported "feeling like a robot", which is a clear sign
of sleep deprivation.

No, it isn't. Are you a doctor, or in the psychology field?
"Feeling like a robot" could just as easily be the words of
someone complaining about their work uniform at McDonald's, or
someone working 6 hour shifts on an automobile construction
line.

If you exaggerate less, people might actually take you
seriously.

Sleepy thinkers don't spot these abstractions, and make
the same high-risk edits over and over again to add features.

If you are too stupid to know when you are tired, then maybe so.
I don't need a time card to tell me when I'm too tired to work.
In fact, it's not a constant, no fixed schedule is going to be
able to determine that.

If your boss doesn't mind, that's still lower risk than chronic overtime.
With your system the schedule will also go long, but at least bugs won't
accumulate.

There is no guarantee of that. What is a given, is that if you
and/or your team is habitually late completing projects, you'll
be looking for work soon.

 

[Randy Howard]

Phlip wrote

If you were a boss, what reasons could you give to defend enforced overtime?

I have been the boss, and I haven't ever 'enforced' overtime,
partly due to semantics, since I have never wanted 'by the hour'
programmers. I once inherited a couple of contractors, who I
didn't trust and wasn't happy with the work of, so I just let
them sit in their office and do whatever until their timer
expired, as I had no use for them and going through the red tape
to eject them early wasn't worthwhile.

Mainly though, I rewarded good results, period. If you think
that leaving at 4:30 is best for you, and all of your work is
done and you aren't leaving your coworkers out to dry, because
you can get more work done in 6 hours if you go home and sleep
for 12, more power to you. If you find that working 7 days a
week 10 hours a day keeps you 'in the zone' and more productive,
that's good too.

On the other hand, no matter what hours you work, if you are the
source of the problems rather than the solutions, then you're
out of here, and good riddance. If you come into the office
every day whining about 'comp time' and how many personal days,
vacation days, sick leave days, etc. all the time, then I have
no use for you, because you are not a professional employee, you
are a wage slave just there because you have to be to eat. I
always searched for and kept around those that wanted to be
there, because they loved the work, not because they loved the
check and were putting up with the work.

 

[amanda992004]

Phlip wrote:

School is different; it's supposed to rot your brain.

And it has.

In work, you should be accomplishing one small feature of one big program,
over and over again. This is fulfilling and good for you; it won't feel the
same.

It's reassuring to hear that. Thanks for poiting that out.

Move to a country where they treat teachers as professionals.

Sadly, I haven't heard any if it exists.

Move out of any country that's doing everything it can to rapidly lose its
status as a superpower...

Very sad, isn't it?

Bioinformatics is booming due to the wide number of different systems it
covers, each bringing its own computational complexities.

C++ and Java suck. Learn TDD and Ruby. You will never look back. And Python
(a competitor to Ruby) is _huge_ in Bioinformatics.

I heard of Python but didn't realize until now that it's hugh in
Bioinformatics. I will narrow my focus and stick to a plan and get
into Bioinformatics, the plan being scripting languages rather than
Database since to become as to a DB Admin requires a lot of experience
and skills.

I have vaguely heard about Ruby, but not TDD. Google time for me.

I have no intention in becoming a pro in C++ or Java. Just taking
Data Structure that uses C++. I haven't touched Java since I took the
course.

I just realized soemthing: Wanting to get out of Chemical industry
(didn't want to breathe stuff anymore), I decided (in 1998) to get into
Programming with interest in web development. Then with slow job
market, I wasn't hopeful to have a decent job in IT and started thining
about Database as my choice but, after moving to this state, I learned
about Bioinformatics, and it seems that I still have opportunity in IT
world. Still a lot to learn though.

Again, thanks for mentioning Python's role in Bioinformatics.

 

[amanda992004]

Mainly though, I rewarded good results, period. If you think
that leaving at 4:30 is best for you, and all of your work is >done and you aren't leaving your coworkers out to dry, because
you can get more work done in 6 hours if you go home and sleep
for 12, more power to you.

It would be nice if all bosses are like you as I am the type of person
who fits in that category.

 

[Alan Balmer]

Phlip wrote:


I heard of Python but didn't realize until now that it's hugh in
Bioinformatics. I will narrow my focus and stick to a plan and get
into Bioinformatics, the plan being scripting languages rather than
Database since to become as to a DB Admin requires a lot of experience
and skills.

Ah, keep in mind that this is Philip's opinion, and may not be shared
by many. Do some more research before committing a lot of time.

 

[Phlip]

Oh bull. The myth that humans can only work 40 hours a week
(and wishing for 32) without losing productivity is socialist
claptrap.

I'l go ask permission of my wife to agree with you.

 

[Baxter]

It's attitudes like this that are the reason that programmers are viewed as
socially inept dweebs.

Myself, I've found I solve more problems and write better code if I go home
at the end of eight hours. My co-worker puts in a late-nighter, but at
noon the next day we're at the same point - I've got as much finished,
working code as he does.

 

[Phlip]

C++ and Java suck. Learn TDD and Ruby. You will never look back. And Python
(a competitor to Ruby) is _huge_ in Bioinformatics.

Ah, keep in mind that this is Philip's opinion, and may not be shared
by many. Do some more research before committing a lot of time.

Ah, yes of course. The original poster should only pursue opinions that are
shared by many.

However, in this case a Google for +bioinformatics +python returns 1.2
_million_ hits. So maybe you should take more care before assuming that
/all/ of the opinions I spout here are not shared...

 

[Randy Howard]

Phlip wrote

Ah, yes of course. The original poster should only pursue opinions that are
shared by many.

However, in this case a Google for +bioinformatics +python returns 1.2
_million_ hits. So maybe you should take more care before assuming that
/all/ of the opinions I spout here are not shared...

And a google for +bioinformatics +java returns 2.4 _million_
hits.

If you s/java/c you get 10.1 million, but that's probably
cheating, and I didn't bother to check all of them.

Even lowly perl offers up 1.57 million.

So much for using google hit counts to make points.

 

[Randy Howard]

Phlip wrote

I'l go ask permission of my wife to agree with you.

Well, at least we know where your spine resides. Good luck with
that, as it will no doubt be a continual help throughout your
career to blame your inability to work on your wife. Managers
just love that.

 

[Randy Howard]

Baxter wrote

It's attitudes like this that are the reason that programmers are viewed as
socially inept dweebs.

Whatever helps you sleep at night, party guy. When it comes
time to get a major project out the door, I'll take the ones
that can get it done over the socialites every time.

Despite the stereotype you seem to wish to reinforce, it's not
really accurate. I've known quite a few socially adept
programmers that understood that there were times (not all the
time) where work was important and that they were being paid an
extremely nice salary to behave professionally. If you're being
paid six figures for being a pro, you don't just plead that your
wife is busting your chops, or you have a party to go to --
Sorry we'll be missing our launch date there boss, but you don't
want me to be a geek, do you sir?

Myself, I've found I solve more problems and write better code if I go home
at the end of eight hours.

Then do it. As long as you don't leave your coworkers hanging
out to dry waiting for you, there's no problem with that, as
I've said already. If on the other hand everybody else is in
the lab at 8:30pm, and the one piece of code that keeps tripping
the analyzer is yours, and you're at home watching Survivor, I
wouldn't want to be in your shoes.

My co-worker puts in a late-nighter, but at
noon the next day we're at the same point - I've got as much finished,
working code as he does.

Then he probably isn't cut out for that kind of work schedule
either. Fortunately, there is a lot of middle ground between 8
hours and 24. I know programmers think in boolean terms fairly
often, but let's not pretend those are the only two options
here.

 

[Gerry Quinn]

Dear amanda,

"Is feeling like a robot a typical description of a programmer's life?
"

I am delighted you ask this question. In fact, not a lot of
(non-programmer) people are aware of the life of a typical software
engineer, so I'll take the time to enlighten you.

Good one!

- Gerry Quinn

 

[Ian]

Phlip wrote



Oh bull. The myth that humans can only work 40 hours a week
(and wishing for 32) without losing productivity is socialist
claptrap.

No it isn't. In my last job I was very unpopular with my peers when I
refused to let my staff work overtime. That soon changed when they
realised the staff were more productive rather than less.

It's not the quantity that matters, it's the quality.

If you can't work 12 hours a day or more without having problems
then you have a medical condition and should seek attention.

Or a life outside of work.

Ian

 

[Phlip]

Randy Howard wrote:
No it isn't.

Now now - Randy is obviously just announcing he's the latest member of my
fan club. The urge to contradict me rises when he sees my name in the Sent
column, before even reading what I wrote. I can correctly identify the
original poster has the best bet using Bioinformatics and a scripting
language, but that's still not good enough for him, huh?

Or a life outside of work.

Could be the sore spot for some...