frames [lame]

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Jake wrote:

[opening new window]

Ever been to a site which, with badly-tested flash and/or
javascript, prevents the back-button from ever working?

And what does your solution do? Breaks the back button.

You've lost me there, I'm afraid.

As you've opened the page in a new window -- how is the back button
relevant?

The new window has nothing in the history, so clicking the back button
does nothing. Ergo, it is broken.

Anyway, as I've said -- much easier to kill a window than to reload
the browser.

Aha, here's the realization. If your browser was maximized, and a page
opened in a new maximized window on top of it, how would you know it
*was* a new window? And it has a broken back button... So, what do you
do? You go back to Google and pick another site. Sometime later in the
day, when you are finished surfing, you close this "new" window and you
find that original window still there... but long since forgotten.

 

[Jake]

Jake wrote:

[opening new window]

Ever been to a site which, with badly-tested flash and/or
javascript, prevents the back-button from ever working?

And what does your solution do? Breaks the back button.

You've lost me there, I'm afraid.

As you've opened the page in a new window -- how is the back button
relevant?

The new window has nothing in the history, so clicking the back button
does nothing.
Yes.

Ergo, it is broken.

No. Simply not relevant in this context. If you have no history, the
back button has no function.

Aha, here's the realization. If your browser was maximized, and a page
opened in a new maximized window on top of it, how would you know it
*was* a new window?

(A) visual - 'cos that's what the message tells me. What message? The
message on the page that says "link opens in a new window" -- or
equivalent.

(B) audio/visual - as above, plus an audio tone.

And it has a broken back button... So, what do you
do? You go back to Google and pick another site. Sometime later in the
day, when you are finished surfing, you close this "new" window and you
find that original window still there... but long since forgotten.

When I've finished, I kill the window. If the original is there, I kill
that one too. What's so difficult about that?

Regards.

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

In message <[email protected]>, rf
Jake wrote:

[opening new window]

Ever been to a site which, with badly-tested flash and/or
javascript, prevents the back-button from ever working?

And what does your solution do? Breaks the back button.

You've lost me there, I'm afraid.

As you've opened the page in a new window -- how is the back button
relevant?

The new window has nothing in the history, so clicking the back button
does nothing.
Yes.

Ergo, it is broken.

No. Simply not relevant in this context. If you have no history, the
back button has no function.

You're not thinking like the average clueless surfer. There are two
things they all know: how to click on a link, and how to use the back
button. If there is no history, of course the button "has no function"
which is why it is a bad idea. They cannot get back to your page.

Most of them don't even know that the tiny arrow flush up to the back
button gives them the choice to go back more than one page.

(A) visual - 'cos that's what the message tells me. What message? The
message on the page that says "link opens in a new window" -- or
equivalent.

How many sites/pages do you really know that say that? C'mon, be honest.

(B) audio/visual - as above, plus an audio tone.

My browser makes no noises.

When I've finished, I kill the window. If the original is there, I kill
that one too. What's so difficult about that?

You kill the window. If it was not a *new* window, you've just killed
your whole surfing session. People are reluctant to do that until they
are done for the day/session.

How often do you sit and watch over the shoulder of the average surfer?

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Beauregard T. Shagnasty replied to hisself:

How many sites/pages do you really know that say that? C'mon, be honest.

Case in point, link just posted in another thread here.

1. Maximize your browser
2. Go to: http://www.luxsat.be/forum/index.php
3. See the Help button, mid-page, and click on it.
4. Read the help info, and click your back button (because there is no
other way to get back to the forum).
5. What window are you in?

Was there a message about "link opens in a new window" ?

 

[dorayme]

No. Simply not relevant in this context. If you have no history, the
back button has no function.

Is this quite fair? What exactly is "the context"? (That was not
a question btw!) Surely Beauregard T. Shagnasty has a point. I
have found it a nuisance from time to time not being able to go
back in new windows, I get lost. So do others (even
non-martians...

When I've finished, I kill the window. If the original is there, I kill
that one too. What's so difficult about that?

Not so difficult, but rather ... messy ... blood all over the
screen where the killing took place...

dorayme

 

[Guest]

<frameset rows="80%,20%">
<frameset cols="50%,50%">
<frame src ="stats.php" name="left">
<frame src ="flag.php" name="right">
</frameset>
<frame src = "command.php" >
</frameset>

and i want to use data from little form (below) in command.php in 2 other
frames. How can i send data form this form and use it in other frames? If
use POST i send it only to 1 frame

JavaScript and a code a bit like this:

<script>
function OperaIsTheBestBrowser(x)
{
//here take all the data from the form and add it do x
//the final x should look like this:
//theaddress.php?field=value&field2=value
parent.left.window.href=x; //submit do frame named left
parent.right.window.href=x; //submit to frame named right
document.forms[0].submit(); //submit to current frame
}
</script>

<form... action="theaddress.php"
<input type="button" onClick="OperaIsTheBestBrowser('theaddress.php')">

Regards,
Talthen

 

[Jake]

Jake wrote:

In message <[email protected]>, rf
Jake wrote:

[opening new window]

Ever been to a site which, with badly-tested flash and/or
javascript, prevents the back-button from ever working?

And what does your solution do? Breaks the back button.

You've lost me there, I'm afraid.

As you've opened the page in a new window -- how is the back button
relevant?

The new window has nothing in the history, so clicking the back button
does nothing.
Yes.

Ergo, it is broken.

No. Simply not relevant in this context. If you have no history, the
back button has no function.

You're not thinking like the average clueless surfer.

You're just saying that to be kind ... ;-)

There are two
things they all know: how to click on a link, and how to use the back
button. If there is no history, of course the button "has no function"
which is why it is a bad idea. They cannot get back to your page.

Most of them don't even know that the tiny arrow flush up to the back
button gives them the choice to go back more than one page.

After an hour-or-so on the Web, most new users will have discovered that
pages can open in a new window.

After a further 5 minutes it dawns on them that they can switch between
windows at will, and can 'cancel/kill' a window they've finished with by
clicking the little 'x'.

We're not talking rocket-science here .... ;-)

How many sites/pages do you really know that say that? C'mon, be honest.

Those sites that take accessibility seriously and realise that they need
to supplement the audio queue in screen readers.

(Even the PM's -- Tony Blair's -- site:
http://www.number10.gov.uk/output/Page4049.asp

My browser makes no noises.

Mine does, when I'm listening to a page.

You kill the window. If it was not a *new* window, you've just killed
your whole surfing session. People are reluctant to do that until they
are done for the day/session.

Can't speak for anyone else.

How often do you sit and watch over the shoulder of the average surfer?

I know some very 'average' surfers, indeed ;-)

Clearly, you and I are not going to agree on this one (I suspect).

regards.

 

[Jake]

Beauregard T. Shagnasty replied to hisself:


Case in point, link just posted in another thread here.

1. Maximize your browser

Yep. Did that.

2. Go to: http://www.luxsat.be/forum/index.php

OK so far.

3. See the Help button, mid-page, and click on it.

Did that. A new window opens.

4. Read the help info, and click your back button (because there is no
other way to get back to the forum).

But it's a new window -- why should I (or anyone else) click on a
greyed-out back button? I press the little 'x' instead.

5. What window are you in?

Back in Http://www.luxsat.be/forum/index.php where I expect to be
........

Was there a message about "link opens in a new window" ?

Nope. Would have been nice for AT users -- but not essential, though.

Regards.

 

[Jake]

Is this quite fair? What exactly is "the context"? (That was not
a question btw!) Surely Beauregard T. Shagnasty has a point. I
have found it a nuisance from time to time not being able to go
back in new windows, I get lost. So do others (even
non-martians...

I hear what you say, but I couldn't possibly comment .... ;-)

Not so difficult, but rather ... messy ... blood all over the
screen where the killing took place...

You've just got to be brave about these things ;-)

After you've killed you first browser window, things get easier ...

 

[Els]

After an hour-or-so on the Web, most new users will have discovered that
pages can open in a new window.

After a further 5 minutes it dawns on them that they can switch between
windows at will, and can 'cancel/kill' a window they've finished with by
clicking the little 'x'.

We're not talking rocket-science here .... ;-)

Maybe not - but I /did/ have to explain my Dad once, that the small
window with the blue borders and the blue bar at the top, that jumped
in front of his full screen window, was not actually part of the page
he was reading in the full size window...

This was after having surfed for a couple of days.

Just saying that not everything is obvious to everybody. (and no, my
Dad is not one of the stupider persons, on the contrary - just wasn't
used to surfing on the Internet yet)

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Clearly, you and I are not going to agree on this one (I suspect).

I suspect that is a correct statement.

 

[Jake]

I suspect that is a correct statement.

An experiment. Try this:

(a) Go here:
http://www.openlink.org/newsevents.htm

(b) Select the 'Walton Hall Campus Tour' (the image in the centre of the
page)

(c) When the new page loads, press the 'back' button

(d) Where are you now?

You need to use IE6 for this.

Regards.

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

An experiment. Try this:

(a) Go here:
http://www.openlink.org/newsevents.htm

(b) Select the 'Walton Hall Campus Tour' (the image in the centre of the
page)

In IE6, I'm taken to a new site/page, with prompts that an ActiveX
component is trying to execute. I said No.

(c) When the new page loads, press the 'back' button

(d) Where are you now?

In IE6, I am at the same page. Stuck on that page. No way back. I have
the choice of closing the browser, or picking something else from my
bookmarks, or going to .. google.com?

In Firefox, I am back at the openlink.org page as expected.
In Opera, I am back at the openlink.org page as expected.

You need to use IE6 for this.

Only to illustrate the bad (proprietary) design.

So what is the point? The first site doesn't open the second in a new
window; it's even worse (but only in IE).

I'm sure we could all post dozens/hundreds/millions of badly designed
sites...

 

[Jake]

In IE6, I'm taken to a new site/page, with prompts that an ActiveX
component is trying to execute. I said No.


In IE6, I am at the same page. Stuck on that page. No way back. I have
the choice of closing the browser, or picking something else from my
bookmarks, or going to .. google.com?

In Firefox, I am back at the openlink.org page as expected.
In Opera, I am back at the openlink.org page as expected.


Only to illustrate the bad (proprietary) design.

So what is the point? The first site doesn't open the second in a new
window; it's even worse (but only in IE).

I'm sure we could all post dozens/hundreds/millions of badly designed
sites...

My original point: you have no control over an external site you link
to.

So. If you had linked to this site (in the same window), and the user
(using IE, like 90% of your visitors) had found his/her way to this page
on the site -- what are they going to do?

The back button isn't going to get them anywhere.

If you link to them in a new window, all they have to do is kill the
current window and they're back safe-and-sound on your site.

Now. If the user is relying on a screen-reader to get around, which is
easier?

Regards.

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

My original point: you have no control over an external site you link
to.

Yes, true, but I can be discerning about who I link to.

So. If you had linked to this site (in the same window), and the user
(using IE, like 90% of your visitors) had found his/her way to this page
on the site -- what are they going to do?

It wouldn't occur on any site of mine, because I would not link to a
site that was so badly broken.

But even so, if your visitor has the browser maximized, they still would
not know this was a new window. That is the point. When they find the
back button doesn't take them back, and if they are in a surfing mood,
it will be back to Google for something else to do - in your new, on-top
window.

I think we've about exhausted the topic.

 

[kchayka]

Nope. Would have been nice for AT users -- but not essential, though.

AT users are not the only ones who would benefit from such a warning,
not by a long shot.

 

[dorayme]

After a further 5 minutes it dawns on them that they can switch between
windows at will, and can 'cancel/kill' a window they've finished with by
clicking the little 'x'.

We're not talking rocket-science here .... ;-)

We might as well be... you need to get out more Jake!

dorayme

 

[Jake]

Nope. Would have been nice for AT users -- but not essential, though.

AT users are not the only ones who would benefit from such a warning,
not by a long shot.
[/QUOTE]
Quite so.


Regards.

 

[Jake]

In message <[email protected]>, Beauregard T.

I think we've about exhausted the topic.

I think we have .................. until next time ;-)

regards.