my little comments on jsp and php

Discussion in 'Java' started by cmk128, May 24, 2007.

  1. cmk128

    cmk128 Guest

    Hi
    I learned jsp for about 5 years, and learned php for about 4
    months. I feel php is more easy to learn, and it can do almost java
    can do. So i suggest people to use php for do web. Here is my little
    opinions:

    1) People said struts/spring is not hard to learn. YES, just for the
    API itself. To learn them right, i need to learn how to setup the J2EE
    server, how to deploy my war, how to compress my code to war, and i
    need to learn how to use the IDE too. All of them composite an complex
    environment and make the learning curve very high. Don't tell me you
    are using a notepad to write struts, then you will spend a big amount
    of time for writing the makefile, and everytime you add more source
    file to your project, you need to rewrite the makefile again. For PHP,
    open a dreamweaver , save your code and then work. For me, i need 0
    second to learn Dreamweaver, because it is WYSIWYG.

    2) Java is too large now, it spited into too many layers :
    presentation layer (JSP), logic layer (struts), data layer(hibernate).
    For almost project, do we necessary to do that? Some people said
    splited as many layer as we can, will make the project more readable,
    and other people is more easy the trace. I totally disagree with that.
    Because i need *SERVERAL* skills to trace a bug in the project that
    with serveral layers. For example, I need to use jbuilder to trace the
    struts part, and i need to use eclipse to trace hibernate. It is hell.
    (my point of view)

    3) Just too many .xml properties file. The beginner is hard to learn.
    The struts have its own properties file, hibernate has it own too, and
    the server also has it own. Too annoying (my point of view)

    4) The IDE is not really as good as visual studio. I know how to use
    jbuilder and eclipse, both of them cannot set the breakpoint in any
    line of code, i meant i cannot set the breakpoint in some of my code.
    Without a good IDE, debug my struts program is hard.

    5) The build process is not united. For example, Liferay is a java
    portal, when you open its ant file, over 30 options, i don't know how
    to build it. For asp.net, whatever your project is, press the build
    button, it will build, press the run button, it will run.

    All of the above points is not exist in PHP world. For a big
    development team, i will suggest java, as i said java split the
    project in more layer then PHP, it will have better division of labor.
    But for a team with less than 100 developers, i suggest php.

    Please correct me if i am wrong !!!

    thanks
    from Peter ()
     
    cmk128, May 24, 2007
    #1
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  2. cmk128

    Lew Guest

    You need to do the same with regular Web apps on any server. Setting up
    Apache Web server in a production environment is not for technically unsavvy
    folks.
    Sometimes knowing the harder tool gives you more strength. Not everyone who
    drives a compact car can handle an 18-wheeler either, but that doesn't mean no
    one should ever drive a truck.
    You mean build.xml, don't you?
    No, you don't. In fact, you don't even necessarily need to rewrite the build
    file to use it in a different project. I have made many Java projects using
    the identical build.xml.
    Some people need simple tools, some can handle professional tools.
    Struts and Hibernate are /third-party/ products.

    The separation into layers isn't Java-specific, it's a product of correct
    analysis, which is the same for PHP or Java or .Net.
    Absolutely, yes, it is.
    Those people are not smart, and it has nothing to do with Java or PHP.
    Funny, I've traced Struts / OO-relational projects without using Eclipse or
    JBuilder. Typically I use one IDE, such as Eclipse or NetBeans, either of
    which can trace through all the code without help from JBuilder.
    Matter of opinion. The IDEs I use (Eclipse and NetBeans) are both at least as
    good as Visual Studio for their respective domains of influence. (I have
    neither tried to develop Java with Visual Studio nor .Net with Eclipse or
    NetBeans.)
    Huh. Try NetBeans, then. It sets breakpoints on any executable line of code.
    (Certain "curly-brace"-only lines and comments not covered.)

    The advantage of a captive market, I suppose. In a totalitarian state you
    don't have to worry about choosing what color shirt to wear.

    I am not familiar with Liferay.

    BTW, Microsoft products use a ton of XML and other configuration files, too.
    Tie score.
    Nor do type safety, exception handling, robustness, logging, skilled
    programmers, ...
    Nothing to do with Java vs. PHP. Layers are in the model, not the implementation.
    I suggest .Net or Java. I also suggest keeping team sizes to under five
    developers.
    You're entitled to your opinion, even though I regard it as ill-founded,
    insufficiently considered, poorly argued and totally missing the point.
     
    Lew, May 24, 2007
    #2
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  3. cmk128

    Hal Rosser Guest

    Good'nuff : you go ahead with PHP
    some folks are not equiped to be a Java programmer.
    There's no shame in that. There's room for both.
     
    Hal Rosser, May 25, 2007
    #3
  4. cmk128

    TobiMc3 Guest

    I think PHP is a great tool for web developers that are making fairly
    straightforward db enabled websites. But Java wins hands down for
    total toolset. You can do so many more things with Java than you can
    with PHP.

    That's not a dig on PHP, it's just that Java just offers more API-
    wise. But, as Lew pointed out, Struts (for example) is not a part of
    the Java code-it's simply a way to enforce MVC design pattern. PHP has
    similiar frameworks, with similar goals.

    Tobi

    Tobi
     
    TobiMc3, May 25, 2007
    #4
  5. cmk128

    Harry Guest

    My overall thought after reading your article is that, are you
    comparing JSP and PHP?
    Why do you talk about struts and hibernate when talking about JSP,
    they are frameworks and specifications other than JSP. You can really
    only use JSP to develop your website.

    You need to know how to setup Apache server with PHP module as well.
    You need not pack war, you can put the files to the correct location
    as usual as PHP.
    You can use Dreamweaver to develop JSP as well.
    As I mentioned, you can use JSP only and need not worry about how to
    setup multiple layers.
    When I do JAVA webapp project, I just use one IDE and can finish all
    the tasks.
    I have not much experience on PHP, but I didn't try a tool on easily
    tracing PHP codes as well.
    So I wonder are you comparing JSP and PHP, or JAVA and .NET framework.
    The reason that I like JAVA, is due to the tracing functinos provided
    by IDE.
    I used Eclipse to develop web application, I can set breakpoint in any
    line of JAVA and JSP code, and also debug hot code when the
    application is running on Tomcat.
    Netbeans provide the ability by just clicking the run button, it will
    automatically create the package and deploy to server.
    The advantages of PHP is fast development and relatively fast in
    seeing the running result. Also, many web hosting companies support it
    by default.
    But I think JSP itself also have most of the advantages.
     
    Harry, May 25, 2007
    #5
  6. cmk128

    Daniel Pitts Guest

    [snip opinions]
    Honestly, I what I took from your post was:

    I learned to use a skill-saw for 5 years, and then I learned how to
    use a butter knife in 10 minutes. I think butter knifes are better
    for cutting things.

    PHP is fine for small, somewhat simple projects. When you need to
    make something complex and scalable, you need a power tool, not a hack
    saw (no pun intended).

    So, the point that you should have made was that people shouldn't use
    Java for small prototypes, but instead should use a lightweight
    scripting language such as PHP.

    I could buy that story.
     
    Daniel Pitts, May 26, 2007
    #6
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