Oh! The people of all over the world!

[Russ P.]

Well, I don't have time for this (I have a day job), but I will give
it one more try.

The casualty numbers themselves are almost meaningless. Israel *never*
intentionally kills innocent civilians, whereas Hamas *regularly*
tries to do so. The difference between Israel and Hamas is that Israel
is trying to *minimize* civilian deaths on both sides, whereas Hamas
is trying to *maximize* civilian deaths on both sides.

If Hamas could kill every Isreali, they would not hesitate for a
minute -- they have made that fact abundantly clear. On the other
hand, Isreal *can* kill all of Hamas and every Palestinian in the
"occupied" territories, but it does no such thing.

You seem to be unaware of the history and reality of the situation
there. Arabs who live within Israel have all the rights that Jews
have, including voting rights (the only exception being that they are
not allowed to join the military). In fact, Arabs who live in Israel
have far more rights than Arabs anywhere else in the Middle East
(excluding the ruling class, of course).

The reason for the blockades you mention is that Israeli civilians
were routinely hit by suicide bombers a few years ago. The "wall" has
largely stopped those horrifying and despicable events. And you think
that is somehow wrong?

Just for perspective, I suggest you take a look at a map of the Middle
East. You will see that Israel is about 1/500th of the land mass there
-- and it is essentially a barren desert with no oil. Why all the fuss
about such an insignificant piece of land? The obvious truth to anyone
who cares to open their eyes is that the Palestinians are being used
as pawns in an attempt to eliminate Israel.

The Saudis alone, with their incredible oil wealth, could easily make
every Palestinian financially comfortable if not wealthy. But what
they do instead is to fund the corrupt Palestinian "leaders" to
provoke Isreal, using the Palestinian people as helpless pawns and
exploiting their suffering to discredit Israel. And people like you
fall for it, hook, line, and sinker.

 

[Russ P.]

By the way, its obvious to most rational people that the Israeli
reaction is overwrought and likely morally unjust--but I can't stand

It is precisely this kind of ignorance that fuels ...

antisemitism

And that is precisely the intent of Hamas, Hizbollah, Fatah, Iran, and
all the rest of the terrorists -- to turn the world against Israel by
forcing Israel to inadvertently kill civilians. They cannot compete
with Israel militarily, so they chip away in the arena of public
opinion -- misinformed public opinion, that is. Judging from your
post, their strategy seems to be working.

 

[Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch]

Something like that web-service that publishes the names and addresses
of doctors who perform abortions so that they can be assassinated?

Hey, it's about boycott, not killing them. Applied to the doctors
example: You go to someone without a doctors degree, a clothes hanger
and some experience… ;-)

Ciao,
Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch

 

[Mensanator]

Hey, it's about boycott, not killing them.  

One person's boycott is another person's murder.

It's like they say, guns don't kill people, people kill
people.

If guns are banned, then databases of such information
should be banned also.

 

[Steve Holden]

One person's boycott is another person's murder.

It's like they say, guns don't kill people, people kill
people.

If guns are banned, then databases of such information
should be banned also.

OK, that's enough non-Python ramblings for this thread.

regards
Steve

 

[James Mills]

OK, that's enough non-Python ramblings for this thread.

God I wish we could delete threads

cheers
James

 

[Obaid R.]

Hamas deliberately and repetitively fires rockets into Israeli
populations. As if that weren't bad enough, they fire those rockets
from within civialian populations of its own, using women and children
as human shields. They *hope* that Israel will be forced to fire back
into civilian territories so that women and children will be killed
and maimed, so the television cameras will broadcast it to the world.

And people like you cannot figure out which side are the terrorists
and which side are the victims of terrorism. Let me ask you a
question. Suppose some deranged gunman grabbed a child hostage at a
schoolyard and used her as a human shield while he shot other
children. If the cops shot back, would you consider the gunman and the
cops to be on equal moral footing? How morally blind can one possibly
be?

I suggest you read this article by Alan Dershowitz:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=2F0C9E0C-704F-40C....

Since the occupying Israeli army is not letting free press into
Gaza freely[1] then there is no independent way to confirm that
assertion that you or your biased source make. In fact
Chirstopher Gunness of the UN[2] affirmed today that despite what
Israel claims there was no firing of rockets from the school area
yesterday; an area which was bombed resulting in more civilian
casualties.

And since when was firing rockets on the occupier ever equal in
crime to firing rockets on the victims of occupation. Unless of
course, you support that occupation, and any forceful stealing of
land even if it means killing the owners by all means possible.

I am curious does the American law treat firing on a trespasser
the same as firing on a passer by? Do tell us.


[1] http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/tim_butcher/blog/2009/01/07/press_freedom_is_israels_casualty_of_war
[2] http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1870087,00.html

 

[Obaid R.]

So an illegal occupation is NOT a provocation

Jesus taught that you don't react to provocation,
so you won't make any headway with that argument.

but fighting the
occupation IS? By which scales do you judge?

I don't judge, I ignore. Your real task is to
break the apathy.

I would argue that a person following such backwards logic and who
sees these pictures[1]

The problem is that no one sees the pictures.

Which came first, the rockets or the cluster bombs?
Because the rockets were first, no one cares to
peruse the pictures because they have already
decided that the victims are just getting what
they deserve. You may have a keen sense of logic
but obviously are clueless about human nature.

and STILL claims that showing sympathy is

Doesn't this campaign of yours make you a heretic
to the true believers who advocate martyrdom?

difficult has a serious problem. After all the logic is simple: for
every action (read occupation) there is a reaction (read resistance)
equal to it in force and opposite to it in direction.

You can of course argue that the reaction is the cause of the action,
but that is clearly illogical and proves your iniquity in this matter
and your bias against the victim. It might take a humanitarian
catastrophe of sizable proportions and a biased person would still not
feel any sympathy. Not that there is no catastrophe, but rather
because bias is by nature practiced in spite of good reason and
available evidence, not because of it.

[1] Pictures
-------------http://www.aljazeera.net/mritems/images/2009/1/6/1_883542_1_34.jpghtt...

If Jesus taught you not to react and you abided by that teaching
then surely you apply that to your life, your country (at least
where you can make a difference, you voted perhaps against
reactive Bush, didn't you?), and would agree that Israel too
should not react, no?

But all indications imply that you truly do not follow his words.
And no you don't ignore, unless it suits you. For you were
proactive enough to at least reply here and do so on behalf of
the occupier when the case for sympathy for the occupied was
presented.

Your bias and iniquity does not stop there neither. After all a
reaction to you IS a provocation and the action itself to you IS
NOT a provocation. Do you not know what Christ PBUH preached?


"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not
prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and
in thy name done many wonderful works?"

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from
me, ye that work iniquity."
(Matthew 7: 22-24)


Note that Christ PBUH is not referring to Jews, Muslims, or others
who do not call him Lord, which we don't. No he is referring to
those who DO call him Lord. Christ PBUH will tell them to depart
from him, "I never knew you," he promised to say. And why?
Because these people work iniquity. Rings any bells? You do call
him Lord don't you?

And the judgments remark was made in reference to your approach
to reason not that you do judge or not, which you do at least
when it is regarding the victim of aggression and occupation.

And you misunderstand. I do not need to convince you, or convince
anyone. If anything I feel I must let people know. How they react
to the information is their business, not mine. At lease on the
day of Judgment they won't have an excuse that they did not
know.

Hence telling people about the ways of Israel and the pictures is
enough. And many do in fact see the pictures, hopefully not to
your dismay. Venezuela even expelled the Israeli Ambassador to
because of such pictures. And that is in south America in case
you do not know.

So people do see the pictures. That you don't see them is your
problem. And the fact that the action (occupation) came before
the reaction (resistance) is also known even in physics circles.
That you don't know the difference in also your problem.

And since you claim to hold Christ's PBUH teaching in high regard
then perhaps you'd be interested in this:


"... because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not,
neither do they understand."
(Matthew 13: 13)

 

[Obaid R.]

So an illegal occupation is NOT a provocation but fighting the
occupation IS? By which scales do you judge?

I would argue that a person following such backwards logic and who
sees these pictures[1] and STILL claims that showing sympathy is
difficult has a serious problem. After all the logic is simple: for
every action (read occupation) there is a reaction (read resistance)
equal to it in force and opposite to it in direction.

You can of course argue that the reaction is the cause of the action,
but that is clearly illogical and proves your iniquity in this matter
and your bias against the victim. It might take a humanitarian
catastrophe of sizable proportions and a biased person would still not
feel any sympathy. Not that there is no catastrophe, but rather
because bias is by nature practiced in spite of good reason and
available evidence, not because of it.

I'm much more apt to listen now that you aren't invoking references to
religion at every sentence. If Israel is guilty of inhumanity, then it
is more appropriate to appeal to one's humanity.

By the way, its obvious to most rational people that the Israeli
reaction is overwrought and likely morally unjust--but I can'tstand
antisemitism just like I can'tstandhatredof Islam just like I can'tstandhatredofChristians.

James

--
James Stroud
UCLA-DOE Institute for Genomics and Proteomics
Box 951570
Los Angeles, CA  90095

http://www.jamesstroud.com

What is it that they say about having your cake and eating it
too? Surely when one raises the matter of scripture's role in war
that it becomes natural to have a discussion with a religious
edge. How else is one supposed to reply to such a topic.

It is not true of course that I used references to religion
in every sentence. Because I did not. But I used enough
references to prove my point and dispute and discuss yours.

I have shown how the Muslim stand in this fight is in conformity
with the Qur'anic teaching and human natural instinct of
defending oneself. And I have also shown the Torah's teaching
(albeit arguably adulterated) and how it commands enslaving
people and the outright destruction of anything that breaths in
war.

We all know who the occupier is and who is the occupied. And it
does not take much for a someone following this to see how both
parties are behaving in relation to their scripture.

Using role playing I have also involved you in a presentation of
the case of the occupier versus the occupied, the killer and
stealer of land, his backers and their apparent motivation in
scripture (as per your theory) vs. the victim and his predicament.
And I asked you how you'd behave, whether you supported the
commandments found in the Torah's allegedly made by Almighty God
Himself or not, among other things.

It is unfortunate that you choose to ignore all that only to
share with us that you are against anti-semetism. First of all
this is another none issue that the misinformed and those who
wish to confuse the matters raise to confuse the topics.

Do you not know that the Arabs and Jews are distant cousins from
the Abraham PBUH root and that they both are descendants from
Shem[1], from whom the term Semite comes? Even their languages
are classified as semetic. How can one be anti-semetic when he
and his language are Semites?

I can go on to quote to you scripture and other evidence to prove
that to be racist in Islam is to risk eternal damnation, but I
made my point.

But how does that statement of yours or mine change the nature of
the commandments of the Torah or the fact that Israel is a blatant
stealer of land, a killer and occupier who is besieging cities and
starving its people to die quietly without a fight into history?

Surely a French person does not expect to do something bad, and
when called into account about that which he did, then hide
behind the notion that it is all anti-french? A robber is a robber
and a killer is a killer and an occupier is an occupier and
calling all these to account for what they did (and continue to
do) does not imply (in the case of Israel) anti-semetism or anti-
Christian (need I repeat that there are Palestinian Christians
dying in Gaza too?)

Justice Jason, Justice. I am for justice. Are you?


"Lo! Allah enjoineth justice and kindness, and giving to
kinsfolk, and forbiddeth lewdness and abomination and wickedness.
He exhorteth you in order that ye may take heed."
(Translation, 16: 90, Qur'an)



[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sons_of_Noah

 

[Russ P.]

I am curious does the American law treat firing on a trespasser
the same as firing on a passer by? Do tell us.

Have you stopped beating your wife yet? Do tell us.

The truth about Israel's 'stolen' land
by Larry Elder

http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=85547

 

[Steven D'Aprano]

Have you stopped beating your wife yet? Do tell us.

The truth about Israel's 'stolen' land by Larry Elder

http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=85547

Oh sheesh, Worldnetdaily!!! You're really scrapping the bottom of the
barrel for reliability now. That's worse than Faux News.

 

[Steven D'Aprano]

Well, I don't have time for this (I have a day job), but I will give it
one more try.

The casualty numbers themselves are almost meaningless.

That's a bizarre position to take.

Israel *never*
intentionally kills innocent civilians,

If only this were true, Israel could regain some of the moral high-
ground. But there are hundreds of documented cases of Israeli war crimes:
military forces deliberately shooting unarmed non-combatants, including
pregnant women and children; so-called "targeted
killings" (assassinations) have killed almost as many non-targets as
targets; cluster bombs dropped on Lebanese farms, and so forth.

The typical response of the IDF and the Israeli government is to blame
the victim: the victim was a decoy, a human shield, was in a combat zone
(houses, farms and streets are combat zones) or, when all else fails,
simply declare that it was a regrettable "exceptional" case.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1126/p07s01-wome.html


Apologists for Israel frequently make the claim that Hamas uses
Palestinians as human shields. There have never been a documented case of
Hamas using human shields, but there are plentiful documented cases of
the IDF using Palestinians as human shields. Here is one example
documented by the Israel group B'tselem:

http://www.btselem.org/english/
Human_Shields/20070225_Human_Shields_in_Nablus.asp


Take note that until 2002, it was routine IDF policy to use Palestinian
civilians as human shields, and it wasn't until May 2002 that, under
pressure from the Israeli High Court and Israeli human rights groups, the
IDF issued a general order prohibiting the use of human shields *against
gunfire*. The use of human shields nevertheless still continues, although
at a lesser rate.

whereas Hamas *regularly* tries to do so.

And if I were defending Hamas as a paradigm of virtue, that would be
relevant.

 

[Obaid R.]

Have you stopped beating your wife yet? Do tell us.

The truth about Israel's 'stolen' land
by Larry Elder

http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=85547

Your tactics of avoiding a legitimate question by posing a silly one
is to your discredit. I leave it to the honest reader to judge whether
that has any bearing on the issue at hand or not and whether your
sudden insight into the unseen (without proof) as to the relationship
between individuals.

Unlike you I don't rely on my psychic powers, I give good sources,
from your own scriptures:

WOMEN IN THE BIBLE[a]
1. Forbidden to open their mouths in the Church: "... for it is a
SHAME for women to speak in the Church" (1 Corinthians 14:34-35)
2. To chop off her hands for saving her husband's life. (Deuteronomy
25: 11-12)
3. Her husband to rule over her: (Genesis 3:16)
4. The head of the woman is the man: (1 Corinthians 11:3)
5. Man can sell his daughter. (Exodus 21:7)






NOTES
[a] From Ahmed Deedat's research on Women in the Bible.

 

[James Stroud]

It is precisely this kind of ignorance that fuels ...

Please. Your opinion of the appropriateness of the Israeli response is
different from mine--perhaps justifiably so--that is a matter of debate.
But don't insult me by suggesting that I confuse the difference between
the state of Israel and the Jewish faith.

James

--
James Stroud
UCLA-DOE Institute for Genomics and Proteomics
Box 951570
Los Angeles, CA 90095

http://www.jamesstroud.com

 

[James Stroud]

We all know who the occupier is and who is the occupied. And it
does not take much for a someone following this to see how both
parties are behaving in relation to their scripture.

Both parties behave in their best interest and in the interest of
controlling resources at the expense of others. Scripture is relevant
only in that its meaning is bent to fit the motives of each party--and
that is why I wish it wouldn't be mentioned. What ever happened to the
concept of sacred scripture and the idea that faith is a personal matter
and not a matter of politics?

"Lo! Allah enjoineth justice and kindness, and giving to
kinsfolk, and forbiddeth lewdness and abomination and wickedness.
He exhorteth you in order that ye may take heed."
(Translation, 16: 90, Qur'an)

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sons_of_Noah

They sound like words to live by.

James

--
James Stroud
UCLA-DOE Institute for Genomics and Proteomics
Box 951570
Los Angeles, CA 90095

http://www.jamesstroud.com

 

[Russ P.]

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1126/p07s01-wome.html

Here's a paragraph from the link you provided:

"Captain R. was indicted on Tuesday in a military court for "illegal
use of weaponry" after complaints by soldiers about his behavior
published in a newspaper triggered a military police probe separate
from that of Yaalon. The charge sheet alleges that R. approached Iman,
who had already been struck by gunfire, and fired two bullets into
her. Then he switched his gun to automatic and emptied his clip into
her, it says. R's lawyer says he is innocent."

So the Israeli soldiers who shot the girl were prosecuted by the
Israeli government. Do Hamas and PLO prosecute suicide bombers for
killing innocent civilians? Of course not -- they honor them as heros
and provide huge rewards to their families!

Are you so blind that you cannot see the fundamental difference
between civilization and barbarism?

 

[Steven D'Aprano]

Are you so blind that you cannot see the fundamental difference between
civilization and barbarism?

No. But some people are too blind to see the fundamental similarities
between the iron fist, and the iron fist in a velvet glove.

 

[Russ P.]

No. But some people are too blind to see the fundamental similarities
between the iron fist, and the iron fist in a velvet glove.

I realize that you do not support Hamas, but I am not sure you
understand who they are and what they stand for. May I suggest you
read this article:

The War Against the Jews
By David Horowitz

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=ED3F303D-47FE-424E-A236-E38064C655B9

Here are the first two paragraphs:

The unspoken truth about the fighting in Gaza, which began on December
19, 2008, when Hamas rockets broke a voluntary truce, is that this is
the frontline of a much larger war. This war began 30 years ago with
the Islamic Revolution in Iran and is now global in scope. Its agenda
is the extermination of the Jews and the destruction of the West.

The Islamic terrorist organization Hamas makes no secret of this
agenda. Its Egyptian founders and Palestinian inspirers were active
followers of Adolf Hitler and enthusiasts of the Nazi Holocaust. The
founding charter of Hamas, which promises that “Islam will obliterate
Israel,” memorializes the Egyptian admirer of Hitler, Hassan al-Banna,
as “the martyr…of blessed memory.” The same document contains the
genocidal incitement of the Prophet Mohammed to “kill the Jews,” to
hunt them down “until they hide behind the rocks and the trees, and
the rocks and trees cry out ‘O Muslim, there is a Jew hiding behind
me, come and kill him.’”