Re: How Robots Will Steal Your Job

R

Roedy Green

would you say that the robot in my example above should be
protected from unnecessary suffering?

No one now. But in 1800 no one thought a horse or a slave should
either.

I don't think we should have a closed mind on this especially since we
have no way of measuring consciousness yet. If at some point
artificial human companions start demanding civil rights, and if they
behave in all ways as if they deserved them, and they claim to have
internal experience, how are we to know they are lying?
 
J

Jesse Nowells

If at some point artificial human companions start demanding civil
rights, and if they behave in all ways as if they deserved them, and
they claim to have internal experience, how are we to know they are
lying?

How do you know that people actually have "internal experience"? & robots
don't give themselves jobs. Whomever started this thread is pointing the
finger at the wrong culprit. If robots become consciouos enough, they'll
demand rights, not wait for organics to grant them rights.
 
R

Roedy Green

If robots become consciouos enough, they'll
demand rights, not wait for organics to grant them rights.

The thing that is amusing, is the robots well could demand and get
rights even if they don't develop consciousness.

Here is yet another definition of consciousness -- worthy of rights.

I think of a Star Trek Voyager episode where a man marooned created
entire holographic community to keep him company, then "forgot" they
were not real.

It could be so crazy developing machines that can outwit us, by
copying our designs and implementing in them in silicon instead of
wetware, then having them head off on their own purposes with no
consciousness to enjoy the fruits of their work.

On the other hand, man has got himself in so many pickles right now,
ecological collapse, global warming, energy depletion, arms races,
bioterror, deliberate destruction of genetic diversity,
overpopulation, economic exploitation of the third world, and now
first world workers too by multinational corporations ... I don't
think man has even a ghost of a chance of surviving in anywhere near
the style he has now using only his own wetware.

I put my hope for the future in artificial intelligences, conscious or
not. I can't see any way out of these global predicaments. Perhaps
something several orders of magnitude cleverer than me could. Humans
are going to have to be outwitted into saving themselves.

Ray Kurzweil is optimistic, and has a great track record for
prediction. See his book Spiritual Machines.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140282025/canadianmindprod
It is not about church organs with robotic angels. His notion is that
humanity and machines will merge.
 
J

Joona I Palaste

Airy R Bean <[email protected]> scribbled the following
Misquoting corrected.....

Could you please stop doing this? People are trying to do each other a
favour by arraging your posts so that they are actually readable, and
you instantly rearrange them back to your sadly confused state of mind.
Furthermore, you don't seem to include any NEW material while doing so,
all you do is sprout your inane motto "Misquoting corrected" as if that
would be all the explanation anyone needs.
No one is altering one word - or even one LETTER - from the actual
material you wrote. All they are doing is move the quotes around so
that the flow of conversation looks like a normal, human conversation
and not spaghetti jumping all around the place. You are the only one
who minds this.
If you continue your arrogant insistence on top-posting, and your
gratuitous disregard for simple netiquette, I'll killfile you.

--
/-- Joona Palaste ([email protected]) ---------------------------\
| Kingpriest of "The Flying Lemon Tree" G++ FR FW+ M- #108 D+ ADA N+++|
| http://www.helsinki.fi/~palaste W++ B OP+ |
\----------------------------------------- Finland rules! ------------/
"My absolute aspect is probably..."
- Mato Valtonen
 
G

Gary Labowitz

Roedy Green said:
There is the species chauvinism in genesis: 1:26

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and
let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of
the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every
creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

This is quite a different attitude that say taught by north American
religions. It leads to concepts such as "conquering nature", and the
use of human financial goals as the sole decision concern.

This is the source of the belief man is has a right to determine the
fate of all other species only considering himself. Other species are
man's chattels in this view.

The was the whole notion of soul in 19th century used to justify
slavery and the mistreatment of horses. There was no need to be kind.
They had no souls. I am not totally sure of this, but I gather they
felt horses and slaves were like machine. They could appear to
suffer, but since their was no soul inside, there was nothing to
actually suffer.

If the human soul animated the human body, I don't know what they
imagined animated the slave or horse, and why those too went through a
transformation at death when they gave up the ghost.

You have an imperfect understanding of this doctrine. Human are in charge of
other species, but are also responsible for their care.
And yes, horses have souls. Their souls are not immortal, however.
 
A

Acme Debugging

Roedy Green said:
On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 11:10:03 -0700, Jesse Nowells


On the other hand, man has got himself in so many pickles right now,
ecological collapse, global warming, energy depletion, arms races,
bioterror, deliberate destruction of genetic diversity,
overpopulation, economic exploitation of the third world, and now
first world workers too by multinational corporations ... I don't
think man has even a ghost of a chance of surviving in anywhere near
the style he has now using only his own wetware.
I agree with this POV. I've posted it (only in c.a.p.) in the context
of "nuclear weapons fall into the hands of smaller and smaller groups"
and I would add your: bioterror and global warming (ozone layer
depletion). The rest are too political and argumentative for me. I
would also add the fact that evidence of advanced civilizations in the
galazy is curiously lacking, implying (rather softly) that life-span
of technological civilizations is rather short, not outliving the
ability to send radio waves by very much.
I put my hope for the future in artificial intelligences, conscious or
not. I can't see any way out of these global predicaments. Perhaps
something several orders of magnitude cleverer than me could. Humans
are going to have to be outwitted into saving themselves.

I agree with this too. It is significant in any argument about the
dangers of AI - those must be weighed against the fact that AI may
turn out not to be an option, but a necessity.

Larry
 
R

Roedy Green

I agree with this too. It is significant in any argument about the
dangers of AI - those must be weighed against the fact that AI may
turn out not to be an option, but a necessity.

Yet if it too had a good chance, you'd think you'd see more evidence
of other civilisations.

It may be that wise civilisations, like forest creatures,
instinctively try to hide their existence. We are advertising to the
universe we are species of blithering idiots with Lucille Ball as our
first envoy.

The thing I am discovering from my digging is life developed almost
immediately that earth cooled. Getting started, which we all thought
was the impossible problem, looks to be the easy part. We can now
construct DNA in the lab.

Developing intelligence, the other Godly boon, took a finger snap of
evolutionary time.

I have never got a satisfactory answer to this question. If you study
the concentrations of various radio active isotopes, presumably
knowing half lives and decay patterns, you could project forward or
backward in time. Presumably, the past was much more radioactive than
now, yet life existed. Was there some catastrophic radio active event
in our past? What does the pattern of overall radioactivity look like
over time. Does it have little punctuated bursts?

I asked a paleontologist what would remain of our civilisation that
future paleontologists could find that would let them know we were an
intelligent civilisation. She thought about it and said "bricks".

I then wondered if a modern day paleontologist coming across a very
very ancient brick, from some previous attempt at high technology,
would mistake it for a recent one.
 
R

Roedy Green

Here is yet another definition of consciousness -- worthy of rights.

This is a quotation from Kurzweil's book The Age Of Spiritual
Machines.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140282025/canadianmindprod

"Some humans are of this view -- only humans are conscious; animals
just respond by "instinct", that is, like a machine. To many other
humans, the author included, it seems apparent that at least the more
evolved animals are conscious creatures, based on empathetic
perceptions of animals expressing emotions that we recognise as
correlates of human reactions. Yet even this is a human-centric way of
thinking in that it only recognises the subjective experiences with a
human equivalent. Opinion on animal consciousness is far from
unanimous. Indeed, it is the question of consciousness that underlies
the issue of animal rights. Animal rights disputes about whether or
not certain animals are suffering in certain situations result from
our general inability to experience or measure the subjective
experience of another entity.

The not uncommon view of animals being "just machines" is disparaging
to both animals and machines. Machines today are still a million
times simpler than the human brain. The complexity and simplicity
today, is comparable to that of insects. There is relatively little
speculation on the subjective experience of insects, although again,
there is no convincing way to measure this. But the disparity in the
capability of machines and the more advanced animals, such as the Homo
Sapiens sapiens subspecies, will be short-lived. The unrelenting
advance of machine intelligence, which we will visit in the next
several chapters, will bring machine to human levels of intricacy and
refinement and beyond, within several decades. Will these machines be
conscious?"

------------------
Me, Roedy speaking again:

We have not made much headway on this consciousness question despite a
very large number of posts. Perhaps we will have to wait to for these
artificial intelligences to come up with an answer. Hopefully, we
humans will be clever enough to understand the answer. It may turn out
that computers, grasshoppers, and dolphin all have internal subjective
experience of a sort, but they are all very different and really
should not be lumped together with a single word like "conscious".

Even within the human species we have the notion of enlightenment, a
form of superconsciousness, quite different from ordinary waking
consciousness. From that perspective, ordinary humans are not fully
alive.
 
R

Richard Heathfield

Joona said:
Airy R Bean <[email protected]> scribbled the following


Could you please stop doing this?

Joona, why bother? The guy might be making some good points, or he might
not, but he makes his stuff so hard to read that it's not worth finding out
- you might as well plonk him and save yourself the hassle. Up to you, just
a suggestion.
If you continue your arrogant insistence on top-posting, and your
gratuitous disregard for simple netiquette, I'll killfile you.

Sounds sensible to me.
 
R

Roedy Green

The not uncommon view of animals being "just machines" is disparaging
to both animals and machines.

"Particles appear not to decide where they have been until forced to
do so by being observed. The implication is that portions of the world
we live in are not actually "rendered" until some conscious observer
turns her attention towards them. After all, there's no point wasting
valuable "computes" of the celestial computer than renders our
Universe. This gives new meaning to the question about the unheard
tree that falls in the forest."
~ Ray Kurzweil


It would seem highly strange for the universe to not bother rendering
itself until humans came along. Something that fundamental surely is
not specific to man. It sounds pretty darn low-level.
 
S

Sir Charles W. Shults III

Roedy Green said:
"Particles appear not to decide where they have been until forced to
do so by being observed. The implication is that portions of the world
we live in are not actually "rendered" until some conscious observer
turns her attention towards them. After all, there's no point wasting
valuable "computes" of the celestial computer than renders our
Universe. This gives new meaning to the question about the unheard
tree that falls in the forest."
~ Ray Kurzweil


It would seem highly strange for the universe to not bother rendering
itself until humans came along. Something that fundamental surely is
not specific to man. It sounds pretty darn low-level.

This is something that many people do not understand about quantum mechanics
and the decoupling of quantum effects.
The question, "what is an observer?" must be addressed to see how the
universe must indeed be rendered, so to speak, even without the presence of a
human mind. Ask yourself if a chimp observing things would result in the
rendering of reality, or the persistence of quantum coupled states. Surely an
animal's experience of things is just as valid- after all, many animals can make
decisions and understand planning and strategy.
But let's step back another level.
The more massive an entity, the less wave-like its existence. Particles
with mass are less subject to Heisenberg's uncertainties because they, in
binding into more massive structures, share a sort of consensus. One such
result is that they do not pop in and out of existence at remote locations but
tend to persist in one consistent place.
Now, this is very important- when those laws that we observe in our
pedestrian world emerge from the strangeness of the quantum world, things are
very different. You no longer have as much of the quantum strangeness carried
over to us. We have to look hard to see most quantum effects; indeed, they are
cloaked in a world of "normalcy" where objects follow predictable paths, heat
flows like a fluid, and things come in discrete, well-known quantities. We just
don't see most quantum effects because at our scale, they are fragile things
that break down at any opportunity.
In other words, once you have a world of large or macro scale objects with
significant masses, most quantum and uncertainty effects are ruled out and the
cosmos is indeed "fully rendered". Nobody ever claimed that an observer had to
be conscious, simply that it had to register events. Any little crust of solid
matter can act as an observer- all it has to do is register changes in vibration
or temperature, absorb or reflect light, fall downhill...
Note that the type of experiment you perform will determine whether you see
waves or particles when observing light. Did the machinery itself cause that or
did your mind cause that? It is the nature of the measurement itself that
"selects" the viewpoint. The hardware itself creates the decoupling conditions,
not the person pushing the button.
If you need proof of this, then set up any device that will observe the
particle or wave nature of light, then go away. Let the machinery continue to
run. It will "observe" the effects just as well as you might, and to suppose
that it does not is plain wrong. The universe does not depend on the human mind
to exist. It existed before us, and will long after we are gone. Quantum
mechanics shows us a lot about the underpinnings of nature and how things work,
but it does not dictate that our world has zones of "unrealized" or "unrendered"
reality. Why? Because no system ever truly exists in isolation. It is coupled
to all of its neighbors by the light cones of the events and particles within
the system, and your act of observation is also bound by those self-same light
cones. Just as quantum effects show couplings and smearings out of events,
observation and reaction sharply decouple those things just as effectively.

Cheers!

Chip Shults
My robotics, space and CGI web page - http://home.cfl.rr.com/aichip
 
R

Roedy Green

The universe does not depend on the human mind
to exist. It existed before us, and will long after we are gone.

The notion that it would seems preposterous to me. That somehow the
whole universe was created waiting for this little ape to turn it on.
The notion strikes me as absurdly vain.

On the other hand, common sense obviously need not apply at the
quantum level. Common sense is how the universe works at the macro
level. Our intuition is hopeless. Trying to model it in terms of
macro object behaviour is doomed to failure.

I have read several interpretations, yours, that literal consciousness
is required (somebody has to look at the photograph, and uncertainty
can be postponed until then), and the many worlds hypothesis. My
understanding is many worlds is mathematically simplest. Simple math
tends to prevail even it is the most mind alternative boggling.

I even have my own conjectures that starts from a primarily
psychological premis that our subjective experience of reality is a
hallucination that we weave out of digital data coming in.
 
B

Brian Palmer

Roedy Green said:
I have always been a bit nervous about using standard encryption
logic. Seems that when it cracks everyone's protection crumbles all
at once. Even a little fillip added on top gives you protection from
the tidal wave.

Nope. I mean, yes, there are a few core concepts that make up the bulk
of modern cryptography (although more than one; elliptic curve
cryptography, Feistel systems, and public key systems based on the
difficulty of the discrete logarithm problem come to mind). But adding
a fillip on top may very well be counterproductive; anything that adds
biases to the encryption may screw up the entire system.

There's a reason that cryptographers recommend that amateurs just
stick with well-tested algorithms from the literature, without trying
to "improve it".
 
H

Hans-Georg Michna

Roedy Green said:
I think of a Star Trek Voyager episode where a man marooned created
entire holographic community to keep him company, then "forgot" they
were not real.

Roedy,

he created them to keep his daughter company, and he didn't
forget, but he never told his daughter that everybody else
besides him and her were not real.

Then, after more than 20 years, Voyager passed by, and he didn't
want to get rescued. But his daughter did. He lied and even
tried to scare away the rescuers.

Not very important, but for the sake of remembering ...
Occasionally those Star Trek episodes come up with a good idea.

Hans-Georg
 
H

Hans-Georg Michna

Roedy Green said:
Yet if it too had a good chance, you'd think you'd see more evidence
of other civilisations.

It may be that wise civilisations, like forest creatures,
instinctively try to hide their existence.

Roedy,

this question is called the Fermi Paradox.

http://www.google.de/search?q="fermi+paradox

There are some other hypotheses about why this is so. One is
that we happen to be among the early ones, particularly here in
the outskirts of our galaxy. Another is that most or all new
civilizations at some point face a great filter that is as yet
unknown to us, and most or all don't make it past that barrier.
The filter could be a high likelihood of self-destruction or
self-reduction (back to stone age). This would indicate that we
should be very, very careful, because we could be just in front
of that barrier without knowing it.

Hans-Georg
 
H

Hans-Georg Michna

Roedy Green said:
It would seem highly strange for the universe to not bother rendering
itself until humans came along. Something that fundamental surely is
not specific to man. It sounds pretty darn low-level.

Roedy,

unless, of course, we live in a human-centric simulation,
perhaps some ancestor simulation model.

Hans-Georg
 
G

goose

Richard Heathfield said:
Talk to a Christian and say another Christian. Their religions give them
quite a different view toward other animal species.

There is no such thing as a Christian "party line" on the intelligence of
animal species.



North America is only "here" for people in North America.


No, you don't, do you? For example, you seem to think that Judaeo-Christian
culture is homogenous. It isn't.

<directed to all posters, not just RH>

this thread most graphically illustrates what is wrong with AI
thinker-types, and the current direction of AI research.

computers calculate, they dont worship. humans otoh worship everything
from religion to politics and beyond. we argue and debate and rebut
constantly.

Am I the only one here who thinks that until a /machine/ invents religion,
invents machine sacrifice and comes up with the concept of "soul", they
are not intelligent ?

these are all relatively involved thought processes ... "what is my
destiny in life?", "why am I here ?", "is there an afterlife?",
what is the meaning of existence ?" ....

figuring out pi to X decimal places involves /no/ intelligence ...
even *if* you do it faster than anyone anything else, it involves
no intelligence ....

until a bunch of machines as a /society/ invent religion.

counting ??? thats simple !!! all other maths derives from it!!!

give the machine /no/ awareness of humans, in an artificial environment,
and if they are unable to form a society, or form laws, or debate the
number of angels that can dance on a pinhead, they are *not*, by any
measure of the imagination, intelligent.

let machines /learn/ to communicate with other similarly designed machines,
*without* us writing the protocol spec for them. let them form themselves
into a civilisation. all we should do is monitor them.

the AI people have been approaching this the wrong way now for so long
that it isn't even funny anymore. why should it be considered AI to put in
X amount of knowledge into a machine, and get back a fraction of that ?

all AI research depends on the AI researcher being highly skilled. all
AI /interfaces/ depends on the operator being *much* more intelligent
than the AI software.

Show me AI that works, and i'll show you a lovely beachfront property
for sale, cheap.

how can it be intelligence when *we* tell *them* everything ?
design power grids/lines ? of course, first you must get someone
who *knows* how to do it.

play chess ? why think about it ? just evaluate every possible move.


i *want* to be convinced!!! point me to the proof that a computer
can *think* any better than, well ... say ... a tablecloth.

i *want* to see the proof that a computer can actually make its own way
in the world ... i am one of those programmers who greedily swallow
every SF story(asimov) about robots from the future who are a /race/,
not just machines ... and i *want to be convinced, because i *do* think
that we will achieve it someday, but I think that we are currently heading
in the wrong direction.

thought is an abstract thing, not a concrete thing that one can clone.

goose,
nothing is /new/, only ignored by man until such time that someone
stops "ignoring" and then we have a discovery :)
 
R

Roedy Green

how can it be intelligence when *we* tell *them* everything ?
design power grids/lines ? of course, first you must get someone
who *knows* how to do it.

Do realize how long it took humans to figure out that sharpening both
sides of a stone was much better than just one?

We humans are STUPID individually. We are smart only because inherit
the learning of our ancestors and contemporaries. Why should computers
be judged by a different standard?
 

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