separating ruby-talk from comp.lang.ruby?

[David Alan Black]

Hi --

Given that the gateway between ruby-talk and comp.lang.ruby is still
not working consistently, I'm wondering whether it's time to turn off
the gateway entirely and separate the two groups. It seems to me that
partial mirroring is worse than no mirroring.

Dennis (the maintainer) has tried to analyze and fix the problem, but
it appears to be downstream from his system somewhere. I guess it's
possible to investigate further, but at this point it may be pretty
hard, and meanwhile the unofficial split between the list and the
newsgroup continues to grow. I think it might be better to make it
official.

I don't know exactly how such a decision would be made, but I figured
the first step would be to see what people think of such a move (not
the idea of mirroring per se, but the idea of turning off mirroring in
light of the fact that it doesn't work). So.... ?


David

 

[Simon Strandgaard]

I don't know exactly how such a decision would be made, but I figured
the first step would be to see what people think of such a move (not
the idea of mirroring per se, but the idea of turning off mirroring in
light of the fact that it doesn't work). So.... ?

I used the newsgroup, but it was a terrible mess, replies wasn't mirrored
correct.. etc. In paticular posts from you didn't show up on the newsgroup.
Some time ago I switched to instead using the mailing list, and its much
better.

I wonder how google does it?

If the news2mail cannot work in all cases, then don't.
I don't like the inconsistency introduced by partially working systems.

A consequence would be that the Ruby socierty are divided in two parts.

 

[Robert Klemme]

I agree that it's a nuisance. Maybe switching off the gateway is the best
we can do, but...

An alternative that comes to mind would be to automatically put something
into the header to let people know from which side the post originated to
make them aware that replies are more likely to originate on one or the
other side. I'm aware that this won't fix anything and it won't prevent
anybody loosing thread answers, but might be a useful hint.

Personally I could very well live with switching the mailing list off, but
then people have different preferences and I don't really expect the
mailing list to disappear.

I used the newsgroup, but it was a terrible mess, replies wasn't mirrored
correct.. etc. In paticular posts from you didn't show up on the newsgroup.
Some time ago I switched to instead using the mailing list, and its much
better.

I wonder how google does it?

If the news2mail cannot work in all cases, then don't.
I don't like the inconsistency introduced by partially working systems.

Me, too.

A consequence would be that the Ruby socierty are divided in two parts.

That is exactly the major issue that keeps me from agreeing
unconditionally to the split suggestion. OTOH there is already news,
mailing list and IRC. I'd certainly regret losing the input of those
people on the other side. *sigh*

Kind regards

robert


PS: David, thanks for bringing this up again and trying to find a
solution.

 

[Carlos]

Hi --

Given that the gateway between ruby-talk and comp.lang.ruby is still
not working consistently, I'm wondering whether it's time to turn off
the gateway entirely and separate the two groups. It seems to me that
partial mirroring is worse than no mirroring.

Dennis (the maintainer) has tried to analyze and fix the problem, but
it appears to be downstream from his system somewhere. I guess it's
possible to investigate further, but at this point it may be pretty
hard, and meanwhile the unofficial split between the list and the
newsgroup continues to grow. I think it might be better to make it
official.

I don't know exactly how such a decision would be made, but I figured
the first step would be to see what people think of such a move (not
the idea of mirroring per se, but the idea of turning off mirroring in
light of the fact that it doesn't work). So.... ?

The solution is to repair the mirror, not to give up.

 

[Raphael Bauduin]

Hi --

Given that the gateway between ruby-talk and comp.lang.ruby is still
not working consistently, I'm wondering whether it's time to turn off
the gateway entirely and separate the two groups. It seems to me that
partial mirroring is worse than no mirroring.

Dennis (the maintainer) has tried to analyze and fix the problem, but
it appears to be downstream from his system somewhere. I guess it's
possible to investigate further, but at this point it may be pretty
hard, and meanwhile the unofficial split between the list and the
newsgroup continues to grow. I think it might be better to make it
official.

I don't know exactly how such a decision would be made, but I figured
the first step would be to see what people think of such a move (not
the idea of mirroring per se, but the idea of turning off mirroring in
light of the fact that it doesn't work). So.... ?


David

I would be more of the opinion to fix the problem. Is there a precise description of the problem
and of what has been tried to solve it? (Maybe it was posted on the ml and didn't make it to c.l.r? ;-)

I would find it bad to separate both. I'm reading the newsgroup, and find it annoying to miss some posts,
but I would vote for trying to solve the problem rather than scratch the link between both.

So, rather than just voice my opinion, should I contact Dennis (how?) to propose my help? How can I help?

Raph

 

[David Alan Black]

Hi --

I used the newsgroup, but it was a terrible mess, replies wasn't mirrored
correct.. etc. In paticular posts from you didn't show up on the newsgroup.
Some time ago I switched to instead using the mailing list, and its much
better.

If your posts get through to the newsgroup. For me it doesn't work.
I have to read the mailing list (to make sure I see everything), and
then fire up a newsreader to actually reply to anything (unless I'm
replying to something that never made it to the newsgroup...).

I wonder how google does it?

It doesn't -- I mean, many of the ruby-talk posts never make it to
Google. That's one way I became aware of the problem.


David

 

[David Alan Black]

The solution is to repair the mirror, not to give up.

Ummm, OK. Any suggestions?


David

 

[David Alan Black]

Hi --

Personally I could very well live with switching the mailing list
off, but then people have different preferences and I don't really
expect the mailing list to disappear.

It wouldn't be a matter of the list disappearing, just having the list
be separate from the newsgroup. For the record, I actually really
like(d) the mirroring. My first choice would be a working mirror, but
I don't see how to bring that about (though I'd be glad to be proven
wrong), and we're piling up months and months of inaccurate archives.


David

 

[Simon Strandgaard]

It doesn't -- I mean, many of the ruby-talk posts never make it to
Google. That's one way I became aware of the problem.

I had the impression Google did correct mirroring.. but I have
never verified it.

Is anybody aware of other services which does perfect mirroring (except NSA)?

 

[David Alan Black]

Hi --

I had the impression Google did correct mirroring.. but I have
never verified it.

No, the missing messages never seem to make it to any NNTP server or
archive anywhere. This has been confirmed on Google, my server,
Guy Decoux's server, and various others.

Is anybody aware of other services which does perfect mirroring (except NSA)?

I don't think any service ever sees these messages :-(


David

 

[gabriele renzi]

The solution is to repair the mirror, not to give up.

I would agree.. And I think most people do. But the problem seem to
be in the newsservers chain, and that is out of our control.
Am I wrong?

 

[Carlos]

Ummm, OK. Any suggestions?

Not really. I don't even know what the problem is. Maybe the mantainer can
make the logs and other information accessible, so people will be able to
help or give suggestions.

 

[Gavin Sinclair]

Personally I could very well live with switching the mailing list off, but
then people have different preferences and I don't really expect the
mailing list to disappear.

I could not easily submit to a solution that meant I didn't see
your contributions, Robert

The python mailing list and newsgroup are united, AFAIK. Better
investigate their solution and experience before giving up.

Gavin

 

[Gavin Sinclair]

Well, I'm all for separating them. It's been nothing but a pain for quite some time now.

Remember DRY!

Yeah, DRY as in "don't create a situation where you need to read a
mailing list *and* a newsgroup".

Not that your point of view is invalid, of course.

Cheers,
Gavin

 

[Martin Pirker]

[...]

I'm counting 39404 articles since 20030101 from c.l.r in my local archive

Is there somewhere a full ml archive for download?
(and a good idea to diff them)?


Maybe a newsserver with open access but only one group (c.l.o.) might
be a good idea to ppl like me who prefer news...

Martin

 

[Phil Tomson]

I don't know exactly how such a decision would be made, but I figured
the first step would be to see what people think of such a move (not
the idea of mirroring per se, but the idea of turning off mirroring in
light of the fact that it doesn't work). So.... ?

Personally, I think there is already too much fragmentation in Ruby-land.
Separating ruby-talk from comp.lang.ruby would only make it worse. I
would have to keep up with two different forums if they are separated.
To find information people would have to do a search at both
groups.google.com and on www.ruby-talk.org.

I have always preferred reading comp.lang.ruby over subscribing to
ruby-talk (too much mail). I really hope we can keep the two connected.

Phil

 

[Robert Klemme]

Hi --



It wouldn't be a matter of the list disappearing, just having the list
be separate from the newsgroup.

I know that you didn't propose that. Maybe I wasn't clear enough... I
was just trying to say that, *if* we want only one place, then I don't
mind if it's *not* the mailing list. IOW: my preference is news. )

For the record, I actually really
like(d) the mirroring. My first choice would be a working mirror, but
Definitely!

I don't see how to bring that about (though I'd be glad to be proven
wrong), and we're piling up months and months of inaccurate archives.

I liked the suggestion to make logs public so people can help out / voice
their ideas about possible reasons.

Kind regards

robert

 

[Robert Klemme]

I could not easily submit to a solution that meant I didn't see
your contributions, Robert

Oh, thanks a lot! Neither would I like to miss your postings.

The python mailing list and newsgroup are united, AFAIK. Better
investigate their solution and experience before giving up.

Maybe they just use another NNTP host for distribution...

Kind regards

robert

 

[Robert Klemme]

[...]

I'm counting 39404 articles since 20030101 from c.l.r in my local archive

Is there somewhere a full ml archive for download?
(and a good idea to diff them)?


Maybe a newsserver with open access but only one group (c.l.o.) might
be a good idea to ppl like me who prefer news...

That sounds like a good idea. If we can set this up on the gateway host,
that'd be good. That of course depends on the hardware, settings and
access regulations of that machine.

Regards

robert

 

[David A. Black]

Hi --

Personally, I think there is already too much fragmentation in Ruby-land.
Separating ruby-talk from comp.lang.ruby would only make it worse. I
would have to keep up with two different forums if they are separated.

That's already the case, though; if you're not reading ruby-talk,
you're not seeing all of what's sent to it.

To find information people would have to do a search at both
groups.google.com and on www.ruby-talk.org.

I have always preferred reading comp.lang.ruby over subscribing to
ruby-talk (too much mail). I really hope we can keep the two connected.

The problem is... they're not. That's what I mean about its not being
about the idea of mirroring per se. In theory I'm all for it, but
it's a question of how many months/years/whatever we want to go on
with the non-working mirror.


David