Slightly OT: Resume Advice

[rowe_newsgroups]

I'm working on improving my desirability to possible employers and was
hoping to get some advice from the industry experts (thats you guys)
on what I should do.

First off, I'm working on getting MS certified in order to make it
through the Human Resources department - which apparently toss any
resumes of non-certified applicants in the trash. Are there any other
ways to prove my abilities to potential employers?

Second, I planned on creating a website to demonstrate my abilities to
an employer. What types of things should I demonstrate on this site?
In other words, if you were the employer, what sort of things would
you definitely want to know I could do?

Thanks in advance for your opinions.

Thanks,

Seth Rowe

 

[Mark Rae [MVP]]

First off, I'm working on getting MS certified in order to make it
through the Human Resources department - which apparently toss any
resumes of non-certified applicants in the trash.

I wouldn't want to work for any organisation which set *any* store by
Microsoft "certifications" - who's to say that you didn't pay your fourteen
dollars, download the entire set of questions and answers and learn them
parrot-fashion the night before the "test"...?

Second, I planned on creating a website to demonstrate my abilities to
an employer. What types of things should I demonstrate on this site?

Personally, I wouldn't bother with this either - who's to say you didn't pay
someone to write it for you...?

In other words, if you were the employer, what sort of things would
you definitely want to know I could do?

Two things, and only two things:

1) what you've done in the past

2) how you'd fit into the organisation

I sit in on quite a lot of technical interviews for various organisations,
and can tell in a matter of minutes whether the candidate is any good or
not - any experienced developer would be able to do the same very easily...

About 10 years ago I sat in on a technical interview where the candidate
said he was very experienced in VB6 - I asked him a fairly simple question,
and he replied that he'd really only used VB as an end-user...

 

[rowe_newsgroups]

I wouldn't want to work for any organisation which set *any* store by
Microsoft "certifications" - who's to say that you didn't pay your fourteen
dollars, download the entire set of questions and answers and learn them
parrot-fashion the night before the "test"...?


Personally, I wouldn't bother with this either - who's to say you didn't pay
someone to write it for you...?


Two things, and only two things:

1) what you've done in the past

2) how you'd fit into the organisation

I sit in on quite a lot of technical interviews for various organisations,
and can tell in a matter of minutes whether the candidate is any good or
not - any experienced developer would be able to do the same very easily...

About 10 years ago I sat in on a technical interview where the candidate
said he was very experienced in VB6 - I asked him a fairly simple question,
and he replied that he'd really only used VB as an end-user...

Thanks for your reply Mark.

My main problem is that I don't have the years of experience to list
in order to even get an interview. So mostly I need help getting the
interview, and not necessarily in proving myself during the interview.
I'm mainly going for a junior level position and then moving up from
there in the organization after I've proved my worth.

Previously I met two large obstacles in my pursuit. The first was that
the HR person said she didn't forward my resume to the IT department
because the job posting said "Microsoft Certification a plus" and
since I'm not an MCP that meant I wasn't qualified for the position.
The second was that I have a hard time showing any previous work to
potential employers since I work on intranet only websites. This is
where the idea of creating a sample website came into play.

Personally, I wouldn't bother with this either - who's to say you didn't pay
someone to write it for you...?

Can't say I though of that. Is this really a large enough issue to
discredit any sample work? Also since I don't have the years of
experience as many do, is this still not worth doing?

About 10 years ago I sat in on a technical interview where the candidate
said he was very experienced in VB6 - I asked him a fairly simple question,
and he replied that he'd really only used VB as an end-user...

In the last interview I went to, the lead programmer said he was
looking for a person who knew Java so they could take over the classic
ASP website that was created with Visual Basic.Net.

Needless to say, I had a very worried look on my face...

Again I appreciate your views on the matter.

Thanks,

Seth Rowe

 

[Mike]

First off, I'm working on getting MS certified in order to make it

through the Human Resources department - which apparently toss any
resumes of non-certified applicants in the trash. Are there any other
ways to prove my abilities to potential employers?

Why bother? Certs to me shows me that someone had a lot of time on their
hands and can use google.
I own a software company and I interviewed guys with certs and guys without,
and I have to say 90% of the time, the guys without the certs, can answer
the questions better and more straight forward then the guys that are
"certified".
Most of them remember the book answers. Lets just say, I hired someone that
was a MCSD for .NET, I thought cool, he's certified, good looking resume,
etc. I had to let him go after a month. He had no real hands on .NET
experience. Yeah he was certified and had .NET on his resume, but come to
find out, he only did prod support and no 'new' development and his cert,
well lets just say he was very good at using google.

to me: certs = useless, unless you have the proven experience of 10 years to
back it, then OK, but even then, 10 years, you pretty much know more then a
guy certified.

As for HR, like HR people have any clue, they just go by what the hiring
manager tells them. Ask a HR person a tech question and enjoy the dumb look
on their face after you ask it. They look like a deer in the headlights
running.

HR = clueless in IT

Second, I planned on creating a website to demonstrate my abilities to
an employer. What types of things should I demonstrate on this site?
In other words, if you were the employer, what sort of things would
you definitely want to know I could do?

I would skip this to, with some many templates out there, how can you prove
you actually wrote it or didn't pay someone to build it for you and you just
put your name on it.

When I interview/hire people, I'm looking at pass projects, and the person
personality. Though we do do a tech interview with some basic questions and
the questions are based on the persons resume, so if you can't answer them
then your not working for me.

so for example: If I see C# on your resume, I'm going to ask some C#
questions, if I see web services, same thing web service questions, IIS -
same thing and so on. My opinion, if its on your resume, you better be able
to talk about it at a techincal level and be able to answer some questions
about it, if not, your not hired.

 

[Mark Rae [MVP]]

My main problem is that I don't have the years of experience to list
in order to even get an interview. So mostly I need help getting the
interview, and not necessarily in proving myself during the interview.
I'm mainly going for a junior level position and then moving up from
there in the organization after I've proved my worth.

Slightly puzzled... If you're going for mainly junior level positions, then
employers should not be expecting you to have years of experience or bags of
"certifications"...

Can't say I though of that. Is this really a large enough issue to
discredit any sample work? Also since I don't have the years of
experience as many do, is this still not worth doing?

I can only speak for myself, and I wouldn't have the slightest interest in
it...

In the last interview I went to, the lead programmer said he was
looking for a person who knew Java so they could take over the classic
ASP website that was created with Visual Basic.Net.

Needless to say, I had a very worried look on my face...

Again, I'm slightly puzzled - did the company not make it clear in the job
advert that Java was required...?

 

[Mark Rae [MVP]]

<snip>

Agreed 100%.

 

[Aidy]

I wouldn't want to work for any organisation which set *any* store by

Microsoft "certifications"

Agreed. You basically buy them.

Personally, I wouldn't bother with this either - who's to say you didn't
pay someone to write it for you...?

I'll go against the grain here and say that the above is a good idea, esp if
you are going for a junior role and don't have much on-the-job experience.
You say later on that you know within minutes if a dev is any cop (which I
agree with, have sat in many many job interviews), so surely you can easily
find out if they actually wrote it?

About 10 years ago I sat in on a technical interview where the candidate
said he was very experienced in VB6 - I asked him a fairly simple
question, and he replied that he'd really only used VB as an end-user...

A funny one I had recent was when I got to the last questions I ask at
interviews which are segments of code with various common flaws, caveats,
bugs, bad practice etc and I get them to point out any issues they see.
Most of the db examples use "select * from table" and when showing the
candidate the code I told him not to bother mentioning "select *", I only
put select * from table in as a generaic placeholder for SQL code. At that
point he asked "What's wrong with select *?" So I now don't inform
candidates before hand

 

[rowe_newsgroups]

Slightly puzzled... If you're going for mainly junior level positions, then

employers should not be expecting you to have years of experience or bags of
"certifications"...

Oddly enough, most job openings I see (even for junior level) want to
have some sort of MS certification. As far as years of experience
goes, I just meant I don't have enough years to guarantee an interview
- so I'm trying to find other ways of "getting my foot in the door."

I can only speak for myself, and I wouldn't have the slightest interest in
it...

Ok - thanks for your opinion on that matter.

Again, I'm slightly puzzled - did the company not make it clear in the job
advert that Java was required...?

No - the job posting was for an ASP.Net developer. Apparently there
was only one employee who maintained the site, and he just left the
company. They said the site a "classic" Asp site created using Visual
Basic .Net - and therefore they required a Java developer to maintain
it. The only sense I could make is that it used some JavaScript (and
not Java), and that it either was an ASP site created with vbscript
(and not VB.Net) or that it was an ASP.Net site and he didn't know the
difference between classic Asp and Asp.Net. Whatever he meant - it
made me rather worried about the job.

Sorry for "puzzling" you so much - hopefully I've clarified myself.

Thanks,

Seth Rowe

 

[rowe_newsgroups]

Thanks for posting Mike - what you say makes a lot of sense.

Since it seems my ideas of what to do are almost completely wrong -
what approach would you recommend for me? In other words, if my resume
ended up at your company for a junior level position, what would want
to see on it to consider me for the position? Do I just list my
background and experience and hope for a phone call (which hasn't
worked too well so far) or is there something extra I can do to help
get the interview?

Again, thanks for your time.

Thanks,

Seth Rowe

 

[rowe_newsgroups]

I wouldn't want to work for any organisation which set *any* store by

Agreed. You basically buy them.

I definitely see you guys' point - I only wish I asked before I
started working on the certification (could have save some money
there).

I'll go against the grain here and say that the above is a good idea, esp if
you are going for a junior role and don't have much on-the-job experience.
You say later on that you know within minutes if a dev is any cop (which I
agree with, have sat in many many job interviews), so surely you can easily
find out if they actually wrote it?

It's good to know I wasn't completely wrong in my approach. If I do
decide to create a sample site, what sorts of things do you think I
should definitely include?

Thanks again for your help.

Thanks,

Seth Rowe

 

[Steve]

People can say the same things about degrees. Degrees are just tests
that you buy. The only differences are that they cost more, and take
longer to get. People can still cheat (much easier) while getting a
degree. I've talked to many people with only degrees who have no clue
what they're doing.

Is someone expected to walk into an interview (assuming they can get
one) with no formal education, no certifications, and have only
experience? They won't stand any better of a chance at getting the job.
The more credentials you have, the better you'll be. If nothing else,
it gets you noticed more when you're in a big stack of resumes on some
boss's desk.

If anything, what I've experienced numerous times in an interview is
that people will notice your certs, and test you on them. They'll give
you real life experiences, and ask you how you would solve the problem.
If they're familiar with the certs, they'll know what you've been
trained on. This is what you want, because then you can show them what
you're made of. The certs will get you the interviews, and your skills
will prove yourself to them.

I've also been asked a few times if I had web sites that showcase what
I've done (web content-wise). This is another prime opportunity to
showcase your work. Anything you can do to help the employer visualize
your skills will only help you. If you're lacking in experience, this
can be your best weapon.

One last thing. Lots of job descriptions say "MCSD preferred" or
something like that. Isn't it nice to have the "optional" requirements
met for a job too???

Steve C.
MCSD,MCAD,MCSE,MCP+I,CNE,CNA,CCNA

 

[rowe_newsgroups]

People can say the same things about degrees. Degrees are just tests
that you buy. The only differences are that they cost more, and take
longer to get. People can still cheat (much easier) while getting a
degree. I've talked to many people with only degrees who have no clue
what they're doing.

Is someone expected to walk into an interview (assuming they can get
one) with no formal education, no certifications, and have only
experience? They won't stand any better of a chance at getting the job.
The more credentials you have, the better you'll be. If nothing else,
it gets you noticed more when you're in a big stack of resumes on some
boss's desk.

If anything, what I've experienced numerous times in an interview is
that people will notice your certs, and test you on them. They'll give
you real life experiences, and ask you how you would solve the problem.
If they're familiar with the certs, they'll know what you've been
trained on. This is what you want, because then you can show them what
you're made of. The certs will get you the interviews, and your skills
will prove yourself to them.

I've also been asked a few times if I had web sites that showcase what
I've done (web content-wise). This is another prime opportunity to
showcase your work. Anything you can do to help the employer visualize
your skills will only help you. If you're lacking in experience, this
can be your best weapon.

One last thing. Lots of job descriptions say "MCSD preferred" or
something like that. Isn't it nice to have the "optional" requirements
met for a job too???

Steve C.
MCSD,MCAD,MCSE,MCP+I,CNE,CNA,CCNA

Thanks Steve - you make a very compelling argument for certifications.
Perhaps I won't give up working on them - after all they might not
help in all circumstances but surely that won't hinder in any
circumstances right?

Thanks,

Seth Rowe

 

[Mark Rae [MVP]]

Perhaps I won't give up working on them - after all they might not
help in all circumstances but surely that won't hinder in any
circumstances right?

Depends who's interviewing you...

As a general rule, if I see a CV with Microsoft certifications, it goes
straight in the bin or, at the very least, straight to the bottom of the
pile as I know from experience that the person is probably not worth
interviewing...

 

[Steve]

That's unfortunate. If the only reason is because of the cheaters out
there with certs (from ANY vendor), just look at the other areas of
their resume. If you see 25 years of experience, and MS certs, are they
worth interviewing? According to your rule, they just got blacklisted.

At the same rate, why wouldn't someone with 25 years of experience get
MS certified, if they routinely program with MS products? It only makes
sense, and helps them keep up with current technologies. I don't think
it's uncommon for an employer to require all developers to be certified,
is it?


Steve C.
MCSD,MCAD,MCSE,MCP+I,CNE,CNA,CCNA

 

[rowe_newsgroups]

As a general rule, if I see a CV with Microsoft certifications, it goes

straight in the bin or, at the very least, straight to the bottom of the
pile as I know from experience that the person is probably not worth
interviewing...

Ouch.

I seem to be more confused on what I should do now than before I asked
the question.

Point-Blank:

If you were me, and you had 3 years of development experience with
the .Net framework (web and windows) and you were looking for a new
job, what would you do?

I'm not looking for overnight results, but with new ownership of the
company I work for (which has a vastly different opinion on IT
structure), I really need to get something figured out before it's too
late.

Thanks,

Seth Rowe

 

[Mike]

I would first look at your resume. If you have the skill set listed on your
resume and your work experience matched what you had listed, meaning, I
don't want to see C# listed under skills but no where listed in your work
experience, If I see a technology listed under skills, I want to see where
and how you used it.

work experience - if you work experience, met what I was looking for as
well, meaning: I don't want to see a resume for a developer position and the
person has some development skills but has been working at Mcd's for years
and the only development experience he/she has is creating little personal
apps for themselves to learn from. Yeah thats fine and dandy, but I'm not
going to bring someone in (for a non-entry level position) that has never
worked on a real world application before.

I don't want a stock boy from Home Depot applying for a developer gig or IT
gig if he/she never worked in it.
Now, don't get me wrong, I have no college education though I've been
working on computers since I was 7 yrs old.
When I first got into IT I had no resume, I got my first real corporate IT
job by talking to friends and neighbors about what I was doing in High
School. I owned my own PC support business and did PC support for small
companies, (networking, installs, trouble shooting, etc.) and moved on from
there.

send me over your resume and I'll take a look at it

(e-mail address removed)

 

[Mark Rae [MVP]]

That's unfortunate. If the only reason is because of the cheaters out
there with certs (from ANY vendor), just look at the other areas of their
resume. If you see 25 years of experience, and MS certs, are they worth
interviewing? According to your rule, they just got blacklisted.

Anyone who has 25 years experience and still doesn't know how worthless MS
certs are *definitely* isn't worth bothering with...

At the same rate, why wouldn't someone with 25 years of experience get MS
certified, if they routinely program with MS products?

What on earth for...???

It only makes sense, and helps them keep up with current technologies.

Utter rubbish, IMO... All it shows is that they can remember a few pointless
facts for a few hours...

 

[Mark Rae [MVP]]

If you were me, and you had 3 years of development experience with
the .Net framework (web and windows) and you were looking for a new
job, what would you do?

Look for a job which required three years .NET experience, and describe on
my CV what I'd been doing with .NET for the last three years...

 

[Steve]

If you think an MS Cert is worthless, then isn't the MVP award that you
proudly parade in the NG even more worthless? Anyone with Google and a
newsreader can help people long enough to get that. It doesn't even
require a test! It's FREE!

Is it worthless?

I'm not saying it *alone* can/should get you a job. I'm just saying it's
worth adding to your resume as something else that can help you stand out.


Steve C.
MCSD,MCAD,MCSE,MCP+I,CNE,CNA,CCNA

 

[Juan T. Llibre]

re:
!> If you think an MS Cert is worthless, then isn't the MVP award
!> that you proudly parade in the NG even more worthless?

That reminds me of the standing joke :

Question :What do MCSE's do ?
Answer : MCSE's ask the questions which MVPs answer.