The Modernization of Emacs

[Edward Dodge]

Besides, ANY interface that involves fumbling around in the dark
trying to find a light switch is clunky. You should be able to see
what the hell you're doing and navigate easily. Applications that not
only eschew normal methods of navigation of the interface, but force
you to fumble your way between the help and the task you're trying to
do, are definitely clunky. An analogy to a genuine emacs experience:
you enter a workshop with some raw materials and tools. Unfortunately
there's no big ceiling lights so you can just flip the switch by the
door and then always be able to see where everything is. Instead
there's little lights here and there by various specific tools and
storage areas, and in one area a map of the place with switches to
control the lights.

So -- what magical computer app illuminates the entire room and shows
you how to use everything at the flip of a switch? This brilliant
discovery would put Sam's, O'Reilly, the for-Dummies series, and
virtually every other computer book publisher out of business in weeks.
Naturally, this would include the publishers of books on "easy-to-use"
Microsoft products.

 

[Twisted]

So -- what magical computer app illuminates the entire room and shows
you how to use everything at the flip of a switch? This brilliant
discovery would put Sam's, O'Reilly, the for-Dummies series, and
virtually every other computer book publisher out of business in weeks.
Naturally, this would include the publishers of books on "easy-to-use"
Microsoft products.

I don't know, but it sure as hell isn't emacs.

 

[Lew]

Twisted wrote:

I don't know, but it sure as hell isn't emacs.

The reason you don't know, and Edward Dodge's point, is that there is no such
app, whether emacs or not.

 

[Twisted]

Twisted wrote:



The reason you don't know, and Edward Dodge's point, is that there is no such
app, whether emacs or not.

Translation: since perfection is unattainable, we shouldn't even try,
and just foist upon our poor users whatever awkward and hard-to-learn
interface pops into our heads first?

 

[David Kastrup]

Translation: since perfection is unattainable, we shouldn't even try,
and just foist upon our poor users whatever awkward and hard-to-learn
interface pops into our heads first?

I recommend you just shut up _until_ you have checked out a recent
version of Emacs. You just have no clue what you are talking about
and are still stuck in the eighties.

Emacs has an obvious "Help" toolbar button in the standard place, it
has a "Help" menu in the standard place, it reacts to presses of F1 by
delivering help, it has tooltips all over the mode line and for pretty
much every menu entry (and the menus are plenty and well-sorted for
doing the most-frequent tasks).

In addition, the quality of those help items is far above average.
But you would not know since you prefer babbling about some passing
decade-old experience. If you had invested half of the time using
Emacs you have invested for complaining about it, you'd at least have
a chance not to look like the totally pompous clueless idiot you do
now.

 

[Twisted]

[a completely unprovoked torrent of vitriol liberally salted with
insults]

What the f%@!? I thought you'd long since quit this BS and found
something more constructive to do.

And STOP TRYING TO HIJACK MY RESPONSES. It won't work. I've told you
time and time again if I want to follow up to your postings I will do
so and you will not be permitted to make the responses disappear by
redirecting them somehow to some other newsgroup. Why do you still
persist in trying? Maybe you really believe I'm the sort of idiot you
insult me by publicly claiming I am? Well, trying to trick me amounts
to yet one more insult then. My response to that is simple: Go f$&!
yourself.

 

[Adriano Varoli Piazza]

Twisted wrote:
[...]
BASTA. Basta, cazzo (unprintable, Italian). Stop it. It wasn't funny
10 messages into your subthread, and it's even less fun now. It's
obvious you're trolling, but nevertheless, in the undescribably
improbable case you _are_ being serious:

a) Notepad is over there: --->*
b) If you do want to keep an antediluvian copy of emacs -probably
versioned in the negative numbers, for all you've said- please do. Do
be so kind as to send a copy, since it might be quite valuable as an
antique.
c) Powerful programming editors assume some willingness to learn their
interface. Deal.
d) Your capacity of denial is remarkable. Please do send us your
contact info, so that we may avoid dealing with you on a professional
basis.

 

[David Golden]

Twisted / Neo / " Paul Derbyshire " wrote
(in comp.lang.java.programmer only, in message id:

[a completely unprovoked torrent of vitriol liberally salted with
insults]

What the f%@!? I thought you'd long since quit this BS and found
something more constructive to do.

And STOP TRYING TO HIJACK MY RESPONSES. It won't work. I've told you
time and time again if I want to follow up to your postings I will do
so and you will not be permitted to make the responses disappear by
redirecting them somehow to some other newsgroup. Why do you still
persist in trying? Maybe you really believe I'm the sort of idiot you
insult me by publicly claiming I am? Well, trying to trick me amounts
to yet one more insult then. My response to that is simple: Go f$&!
yourself.

Apparently, while many might assume comp.emacs is the appropriate
newsgroup for a thread about emacs, "Twisted" feels very strongly that
it isn't. And also has difficulty comprehending the advanced magic
of the Followup-To header.

 

[Lew]

Translation: since perfection is unattainable, we shouldn't even try,
and just foist upon our poor users whatever awkward and hard-to-learn
interface pops into our heads first?

Nice rhetoric but completely twisted the point. Blaaaat!

 

[Lew]

And STOP TRYING TO HIJACK MY RESPONSES. It won't work. I've told you
time and time again if I want to follow up to your postings I will do
so and you will not be permitted to make the responses disappear by
redirecting them somehow to some other newsgroup. Why do you still
persist in trying? Maybe you really believe I'm the sort of idiot you
insult me by publicly claiming I am? Well, trying to trick me amounts
to yet one more insult then. My response to that is simple: Go f$&!
yourself.

Blatant paranoia, tremendous rudeness and complete irrelevance.

No one is trying to block you, silly. Just whom are you accusing? None of us
have anything to do with the phenomena you attribute to malice.

I notice you never responded to anyone's multiple suggestions to actually look
at recent (as in the last two decades') releases of emacs so that your
comments are founded on fact. Judging from this response of yours, one must
wonder if you have any connection to reality. It is odd, because so many of
your comments in other threads are very knowledgeable and helpful.

 

[Bjorn Borud]

[Twisted <[email protected]>]
|
| Translation: since perfection is unattainable, we shouldn't even try,
| and just foist upon our poor users whatever awkward and hard-to-learn
| interface pops into our heads first?

uh, I think the point here is that some think it might be an idea to
force *their* idea of the ideal interface upon others, refusing to
understand that people might have their own preferences.

-Bjørn

 

[Bjorn Borud]

[Twisted <[email protected]>]
|
| And STOP TRYING TO HIJACK MY RESPONSES. It won't work. I've told you
| time and time again if I want to follow up to your postings I will do
| so and you will not be permitted to make the responses disappear by
| redirecting them somehow to some other newsgroup. Why do you still
| persist in trying? Maybe you really believe I'm the sort of idiot you
| insult me by publicly claiming I am? Well, trying to trick me amounts
| to yet one more insult then. My response to that is simple: Go f$&!
| yourself.

you are a self-important moron. grow up.

-Bjørn

 

[Twisted]

Apparently, while many might assume comp.emacs is the appropriate
newsgroup for a thread about emacs

You son of a bitch. You did it too!

I WILL NOW REPEAT MYSELF IN ALL CAPS TO MAKE SURE THIS GETS THOROUGHLY
UNDERSTOOD BY ALL OF YOU.

THE APPROPRIATE NEWSGROUP FOR MY RESPONSE IS THE NEWSGROUP I AM
READING WHEN I MAKE THE RESPONSE. OTHERWISE I WON'T SEE ANY REPLIES TO
MY RESPONSE.

AND DON'T DO IT AGAIN!!!

 

[Twisted]

Blatant paranoia, tremendous rudeness and complete irrelevance.

[Snip remaining rather peculiar mix of insults and backhanded
compliments]

It is not paranoia -- someone or some thing keeps trying to redirect
my responses to comp.emacs, a newsgroup I don't subscribe to, where
they could then flame my responses with impunity because I wouldn't
have the opportunity to see and respond to their attacks. Basically,
someone (several someones?) is trying to hustle this discussion away
from where I'll see whatever they're saying about me and in response
to what I write, and to make my responses disappear into what is, from
my perspective, a black hole. This has several bad consequences:

1. If I'm insulted in comp.lang.java.programmer but my response
rebutting those attacks is whisked away to someplace else, it fails to
neutralize the effects of the insults in comp.lang.java.programmer, on
whatever audience reads there but not the "someplace else". And that
portion of the audience that does not read the "someplace else" is
known to have a size greater than zero, since I'm one of them.
2. I might be further insulted in replies to my response, and not even
see those attacks to be able to rebut any of them.
3. Or something genuinely interesting or useful might be posted in
reply, and go undetected because it fails to appear in
comp.lang.java.programmer (or any other newsgroup I read regularly).
4. It is impossible to properly follow a thread when your view of it
is incomplete. Hijacked responses not appearing anywhere that I will
see them (whether my responses or someone else's) will obviously make
my view of the thread incomplete.
5. Furthermore, I am not going to subscribe to what I suspect may very
well be the newsgroup from hell just to be able to follow this thread!
I have too many subscribed groups to follow as it is, and not enough
time in one day as it is.

 

[Twisted]

you are a self-important moron. grow up.

You are an asshole. Go away.

 

[JackT]

You son of a bitch. You did it too!

I WILL NOW REPEAT MYSELF IN ALL CAPS TO MAKE SURE THIS GETS THOROUGHLY
UNDERSTOOD BY ALL OF YOU.

THE APPROPRIATE NEWSGROUP FOR MY RESPONSE IS THE NEWSGROUP I AM
READING WHEN I MAKE THE RESPONSE. OTHERWISE I WON'T SEE ANY REPLIES TO
MY RESPONSE.

You moron.

(1) I'm using Google Groups also, so don't tell me
it's Google Group that forces you to cross post to irrelevant groups

(2) Do you not notice that "comp.emacs" is in the "group" list
of every one of your message? You say you can also see responses
in the group you're reading. So, moron, just subscribe to comp.emacs
and then read/write the messages there. (And the past messages that
you and others said are ALL STILL on comp.emacs)

You stupid retard.

 

[Twisted]

b) If you do want to keep an antediluvian copy of emacs -probably
versioned in the negative numbers, for all you've said- please do. Do
be so kind as to send a copy, since it might be quite valuable as an
antique.

Judging by the existence of the newsgroup comp.emacs, emacs is indeed
considered by some to be a quite valuable antique. Otherwise why on
earth would it have an apparently fairly active newsgroup a full seven
years into the 21st century?

 

[Twisted]

uh, I think the point here is that some think it might be an idea to
force *their* idea of the ideal interface upon others, refusing to
understand that people might have their own preferences.

I, for one, have a strong preference for interfaces that let me see
what the hell I'm doing and make it easy to find commands, navigate
the interface, navigate the help, and so forth, while making me resort
to reaching for that help as infrequently as reasonably achievable.

But that's just me.

 

[David Kastrup]

You son of a bitch. You did it too!

I WILL NOW REPEAT MYSELF IN ALL CAPS TO MAKE SURE THIS GETS THOROUGHLY
UNDERSTOOD BY ALL OF YOU.

THE APPROPRIATE NEWSGROUP FOR MY RESPONSE IS THE NEWSGROUP I AM
READING WHEN I MAKE THE RESPONSE. OTHERWISE I WON'T SEE ANY REPLIES TO
MY RESPONSE.

If you don't read comp.emacs, don't post there, or at least use a
Followup-To header that does not point there. It is as simple as
that. It is common courtesy to move multiposted threads to a relevant
group. And it is somewhat obvious that comp.java.programmer is not
the right place for your decade-old anecdotal experience and your
prejudices about what Emacs must be like nowadays.

Not that comp.emacs is much better, but at least you are on-topic
there parading this particular piece of your ignorance.

Followup set to comp.emacs.

 

[Matthias Buelow]

I, for one, have a strong preference for interfaces that let me see
what the hell I'm doing and make it easy to find commands, navigate
the interface, navigate the help, and so forth, while making me resort
to reaching for that help as infrequently as reasonably achievable.

These are, of course, not unreasonable wishes. I assume you're
programming that software already, given that you're crossposting to
various programming-language newsgroups. Very well. We'll eagerly judge
you by what you'll come up with.


F'up-to: comp.emacs.