This newsgroup has become vicious

[anonymouse127]

This is now such a nasty place to visit so I'm quitting coming here.

Newbies are regularly attacked in a vicious way about top-posting -
which is a completely normal thing to do outside of this little
newsgroup micro-world. The equally severe beatings people are given
for not trimming quotes in the right way is also unfair. Shouting at
people to read the rules doesn't hold up as an argument. When you add
a newsserver and search for javascript and find this place, there's no
popup window with the rules in it. There's nothing that tells you the
name of the website where the rules are.

Even people that sign their posts with their real name, like that
Richard person that showed up a few days ago, are criticized for
having the same name as another poster. I think the quote was "we
already have a Richard". I assume that was meant to refer to Richard
Cornford, who in each post I've seen signs his name in full so what's
the problem. Before you suggest it, I'm not "the criticized Richard",
I kept well out of that thread.

The people who offer answers or solutions are also attacked by the
more experienced here. It's programming, there's rarely a perfect
answer. There's no concept of "ok, that'll work" here. You all have to
get into a "my solution is more standard than yours". You're all
applying such an unnecessary complexity to things. There's the overly
pedantic people who are claiming that eval is evil, that sniffing for
a browser and using that to branch your logic makes you a weak and
basically worthless programmer, and that if any of your code doesn't
pass an strict validation then you're a total idiot. Likewise there's
the lobby that are criticizing anybody who's code is using anything
deprecated, or even worse, something that will be deprecated in the
future.

You might want to step back and look at what you're doing. You're
basically just being asshole geeks. Does it make you feel good ?

 

[rf]

This is now such a nasty place to visit so I'm quitting coming here.

<snip rant>

X-Trace: posting.google.com 1183631826 12225 127.0.0.1 (5 Jul 2007 10:37:06
GMT)

 

[rf]

Can you post something sensible instead of line-noise?

OK.

The things the OP is complaining about in his/her rant are usually caused by
people who know exactly nothing about the etiquette of usenet drifting in
from web based "newsgroup portals" such as google groups and others.

They come in here (read: usenet in general, not just this group but all the
others as well), break all the rules totally, and get cranky when the people
who have been inhabiting usenet since before google was even thought of try
to correct their ways.

Most of them are fly-bys. They make one single post, usually incomplete and
ambiguous, often incomprehensible, and are never heard from again, even when
more information is requested from them. This is annoying and in itself
engenders a very low tolerance to anybody posting from such things as google
groups.

When they do stick around they are so hampered by the stupidity of the
google groups interface that it just don't get it, to the annoyance of those
trying to help. This lowers the tolerance further.

Often they become arrogant, their tone implying that they consider that they
are conversing with something that might be called a "google groups help
desk". They snipe when somebody drifts a little off topic. I've seen them
decry a poster for addressing the stupidity of the actual question, rather
than providing a solution to that stupid question. Search the archive for
right click scripts This lowers the tolerance to almost zero.

What you missed in my one-liner was that the OP is posting from the very
place that is the main cause of the reactions he is complaining about.

Clear enough?

I repeat: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html

 

[anonymouse127]

The things the OP is complaining about in his/her rant are usually caused by
people who know exactly nothing about the etiquette of usenet drifting in
from web based "newsgroup portals" such as google groups and others.

My complaint wasn't about the people who don't understand the
netiquette, it was about the reaction they receive when they don't
follow rules that they haven't seen and haven't been given the address
to go and read them.

What's worse is the <self-imposed snip here, it's in my original post,
I don't need to repeat it>. This is my last post on this topic and
this group, squabble amongst yourselves children.

 

[rf]

My complaint wasn't about the people who don't understand the
netiquette,

That is exactly the point. The etiquette is that *you* find out the rules.
*You* find the FAQ. *You* lurk for a week or so to find out the rules. This
is the etiquette the bloody google groupers simply do not understand.

it was about the reaction they receive when they don't
follow rules that they haven't seen and haven't been given the address
to go and read them.

And my diatribe was not about that either. It was about the bloody idiots
from google groups disrupting the local scenery and then bitching about the
reaction the get, and you are one of them. You want to be spoon fed like the
bloody idiots you are.

Walk into a bar and piss on the floor. Oh, I didn't see a sign saying no
pissing on the floor.

What's worse is the <self-imposed snip here, it's in my original post,
I don't need to repeat it>. This is my last post on this topic and
this group, squabble amongst yourselves children.

Don't let the door hit your arse on your way out.

 

[Tim Streater]

OK.

Thanks, that's clear now.

The things the OP is complaining about in his/her rant are usually caused by
people who know exactly nothing about the etiquette of usenet drifting in
from web based "newsgroup portals" such as google groups and others.

They come in here (read: usenet in general, not just this group but all the
others as well), break all the rules totally, and get cranky when the people
who have been inhabiting usenet since before google was even thought of try
to correct their ways.

These aren't rules, they are mere suggestions. It's exactly when people
try to characterise them as "rules", and say that since they have been
on usenet since the year dot they get to tell people off, that I am
minded to top-post or commit some other "crime".

Most of them are fly-bys. They make one single post, usually incomplete and
ambiguous, often incomprehensible, and are never heard from again, even when
more information is requested from them. This is annoying and in itself
engenders a very low tolerance to anybody posting from such things as google
groups.

Such people are an irritation in any context.

When they do stick around they are so hampered by the stupidity of the
google groups interface that it just don't get it, to the annoyance of those
trying to help. This lowers the tolerance further.

Never used it but I can imagine.

Often they become arrogant, their tone implying that they consider that they
are conversing with something that might be called a "google groups help
desk". They snipe when somebody drifts a little off topic. I've seen them
decry a poster for addressing the stupidity of the actual question, rather
than providing a solution to that stupid question. Search the archive for
right click scripts This lowers the tolerance to almost zero.

Well ,there are nincompoops in any group, live or not. Threads involving
them can be quite funny, and sometimes quite instructive as you often
get detailed useful information from people trying to educate the klod
in question.

What you missed in my one-liner was that the OP is posting from the very
place that is the main cause of the reactions he is complaining about.

Clear enough?

I repeat: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html

Yes. I haven't seen his previous posts or the thread(s?) that were
referred to, so can't judge as to whether the particular rant was
justified. But I have experienced something similar when I dropped into
the perl ng looking for an answer to a specific question about parameter
passing. They were very inwardly focussed and I got told off, so I left.
Quietly.

 

[RobG]

And my diatribe was not about that either. It was about the bloody idiots
from google groups disrupting the local scenery and then bitching about the
reaction the get, and you are one of them. You want to be spoon fed like the
bloody idiots you are.

Characterising everyone who uses Google Groups as a "bloody idiot" is
like criticising someone who uses browser-based e-mail rather than an
e-mail client. You might also rail against those who aren't prepared
to use a real e-mail address or identity.

Browser-based interfaces to this news group aren't confined to Google,
nor are "idiots" confined to those using a web interface - search the
archives.

 

[rf]

Characterising everyone who uses Google Groups as a "bloody idiot" is
like criticising someone who uses browser-based e-mail rather than an
e-mail client. You might also rail against those who aren't prepared
to use a real e-mail address or identity.

Rob, I am well aware that there are some sane people who use google groups
to post to usenet for whatever reason, usually related to not having a news
server to hand. I know that some of the regulars in the groups do so. I have
no problem with that.

I target the newbie who finds a computer at the local supermarket, finds
google, then finds google groups. They invariably have a gmail email address
and they think that usenet is googles big shiny help desk and they get uspet
when their question is not immediately answered to *their* satisfaction.
They have no idea at all that they are posting stuff to something other than
google groups. They even call us a "forum" or a "list" or whatever. These
are the ones I get cranky with. Perhaps I should have specified this
earlier. I'm a bit calmer now anyway

Browser-based interfaces to this news group aren't confined to Google,
nor are "idiots" confined to those using a web interface - search the
archives.

Agreed ;-)

 

[rf]

But I have experienced something similar when I dropped into
the perl ng looking for an answer to a specific question about parameter
passing. They were very inwardly focussed and I got told off, so I left.
Quietly.

I used one of those odd email groups once. You post an email to your
favourite chip suppliers group address and it is forwarded to everybody.

"You *MUST* put your reply at the very top of the email chain so nobody has
to scroll down" they said to me.

I did. Seemed to satisfy them. Play by their rules and they don't get upset.
Well, not a lot, anyway

 

[Tim Streater]

Are we talking about comp.lang.perl? I'd rather read hordes of man
pages than visit that damn group.

I was, yes. They seemed to be too busy arguing about who was better at
reducing any perl script down to a . to have time for a well-formulated
question such as I put.

Given that the choice was between that and reading the perl book
*again*, I used PHP instead, where the doc is written by adults.

 

[Matt Kruse]

This is now such a nasty place to visit so I'm quitting coming here.

Even better - ignore the complainers. Don't give them the attention
they desire.

I've all but quit reading this group because the signal-to-noise level
is so low, but it is what it is. I've learned that there's no point in
complaining about it.

Matt Kruse

 

[Dr J R Stockton]

In comp.lang.javascript message <[email protected]
oglegroups.com>, Thu, 5 Jul 2007 14:39:27, Matt Kruse

Even better - ignore the complainers. Don't give them the attention
they desire.

I've all but quit reading this group because the signal-to-noise level
is so low, but it is what it is. I've learned that there's no point in
complaining about it.

You only need to kill-rule everything with a three-letter TLD.

You'll initially miss a little good stuff, but that commonly gets quoted
so you'll see it later; but what passes that rule will be comparatively
idiot-free.

 

[Lee]

Dr J R Stockton said:

In comp.lang.javascript message <[email protected]
oglegroups.com>, Thu, 5 Jul 2007 14:39:27, Matt Kruse



You only need to kill-rule everything with a three-letter TLD.

You'll initially miss a little good stuff, but that commonly gets quoted
so you'll see it later; but what passes that rule will be comparatively
idiot-free.

Not all of the noise is from idiots.
Some is from arrogant bigots.


--

 

[Peter Michaux]

Subject: This newsgroup has become vicious

Not recently.

This is now such a nasty place to visit so I'm quitting coming here.

Newbies are regularly attacked in a vicious way about top-posting -
which is a completely normal thing to do outside of this little
newsgroup micro-world. The equally severe beatings people are given
for not trimming quotes in the right way is also unfair.

It might be helpful to think of this newsgroup as having a compiler.
The compiler first checks for syntax errors in the message. If there
is one (e.g. top-posting) the compiler complains with a vicious
message reporting the error. After you get to know the compilers
syntax rules things are much smoother.

The people who offer answers or solutions are also attacked by the
more experienced here. It's programming, there's rarely a perfect
answer. There's no concept of "ok, that'll work" here. You all have to
get into a "my solution is more standard than yours". You're all
applying such an unnecessary complexity to things. There's the overly
pedantic people who are claiming that eval is evil, that sniffing for
a browser and using that to branch your logic makes you a weak and
basically worthless programmer, and that if any of your code doesn't
pass an strict validation then you're a total idiot. Likewise there's
the lobby that are criticizing anybody who's code is using anything
deprecated, or even worse, something that will be deprecated in the
future.

I think you've missed the point a bit. Most of the people here (with
at least one long-standing notable exception) really want to write
robust, professional code and assume others want the same. Mentions of
eval, sniffing, deprecation are important in this group and I hope
they don't end anytime soon.

You might want to step back and look at what you're doing. You're
basically just being asshole geeks. Does it make you feel good ?

I agree that people should be treated with respect. I think it is
better to ignore a message then to respond rudely with formatting nit
picks. Responding politely with nit picks is fine.

comp.lang.javascript is the best source of JavaScript info on the
internet. You are only hurting yourself if you leave.

Peter

 

[Bart Van der Donck]

-Lost wrote:

I was, yes. They seemed to be too busy arguing about who was
better at reducing any perl script down to a .

Many car brands invest astronmic amounts of money in Formula-1.

Exploring the extremes of any technology gives you a vast knowlegde
for your normal production work.

 

[Tim Streater]

Many car brands invest astronmic amounts of money in Formula-1.

Exploring the extremes of any technology gives you a vast knowlegde
for your normal production work.

Agreed. But that would not have precluded their answering my simple
question about parameter passing.

And I code for readability, simplicity, and maintainability, as a mark
of respect for the guy who comes after and has to deal with my stuff.

 

[Darko]

Agreed. But that would not have precluded their answering my simple
question about parameter passing.

And I code for readability, simplicity, and maintainability, as a mark
of respect for the guy who comes after and has to deal with my stuff.

It seems normal to be sarcastic in the profession we are (all) in, at
least based on my experience. Well, even saying 'idiots', 'damn',
'bloody', etc. gives a little of spice to the conversation, though it
can turn into explosion if the other side doesn't remain cool and
understand that you're just having a rough day and it's probably the
colleagues who'll understand if not anyone else (in Serbian, there's a
saying 'Ko e koga, nego svoj svoga' - in loose translation 'Who will
kick you in the butt if not your closest (friend, whatever)'.

However, I also don't understand the netiquette as "rules" but as
suggestions that make the life easier (the group more readable), and I
don't know why anyone would think it's worth stabbing the guy who
posted his/her question "incorrectly" if, for an example, he/she is
not noticed to have been here for a long time and does the same
"mistakes" over and over again. And who has the patience and will for
it, anyway?

 

[Bart Van der Donck]

Bart Van der Donck wrote:

Agreed. But that would not have precluded their answering
my simple question about parameter passing.

That is a valid point for sure. The primary goal of technic newsgroups
should be to answer the question.

And I code for readability, simplicity, and maintainability,
as a mark of respect for the guy who comes after and has to
deal with my stuff.

Traditional computer theories see it somewhat broader, cfr. the so-
called MATURE-concept:
- Maintainable
- Adaptable
- Transparent
- User-friendly
- Reliable
- Efficient

I think there is a very important distinction. Simplicity and
readability should indeed be priorities in production environments,
which aids to achieve MATURE architectures there. But in a group like
comp.lang.javascript there is (and should be!) room for experiments,
alternative approaches, sport code, quibbling, etc. And bad advice/
code is mostly quickly corrected.

There are too many programmers in companies who have absolutely no
'battle-tests' about their code, which is a pitty, because the quality
of their software would definitely benefit from it.

 

[Bart Lateur]

Are we talking about comp.lang.perl? I'd rather read hordes of man
pages than visit that damn group.

That group has been defunct for 12 years or so. Maybe you tend to keep a
grudge for a very long time.

 

[Matt Kruse]

You know me, Mr. Nosy. Um, why were you going to use Google Groups when
you have a dedicated news server?

For me personally, I now use Google Groups because I make extensive
use of the iGoogle personalized home page. I get all my RSS feeds and
other info on one screen, including feeds from various groups using my
Google Groups Reader gadget (http://www.JavascriptToolbox.com/gadget/
groups/groups.xml). Since I read other groups that are only found on
Google Groups (not usenet) it just makes it more convenient to access
everything in one place.

Not that I like everything about GG. There are many things I'd like to
change.

Matt Kruse