To be a Java Programmer

[Job Numbers]

Job Numbers wrote:
<big snip>

I WAS going to avoid replying to the original response, waiting to see
whether others would comment. Unfortunately, it's going from bad to
worse and so cannot escape some observations from this quarter.


Now there's a clear, unambiguous statement.



As opposed to knowledge of the English language. ;-) I believe you
might have meant "sheer" here.


Support language familiarity: inable (er, enable) yourself!


Check the javadocs. The java.sql package has been around since 1.2.


Hmmm...JavaServer Faces (JSF) grew out of Struts. In point of fact,
Craig McClanahan (original author of Struts) was specification lead
for JSF. So Sun has no good frameworks?

I'm just trying to counter some of your misinformation. While I
appreciate your attempts at elucidation, people reading your
replies are likely to become MORE confused.

You're entitled to a personal opinion but it seems a tad harsh
and doesn't jibe with my experiences or those of many practitioners.
I WILL grant you that not every project requires EJBs and some of the
other functionality incorporated into a J2EE server. I find myself
quite satisfied with an Apache/Tomcat/Struts/Tiles architecture.

Cheers!

English isn't my native language. Everything I still said is correct.
Given that you only found problem in my language and not the actual content
means that you are gasping at straws.

 

[marcus]

Wow -- I gotta chime in here --
First, be sure to read sudsy's comments -- I ditto
Second, which should be first, your attitude sucks. If you don't really
dig getting yer neurons dirty learning all the ins and outs of what
tools you need, how to find them and make them work together, etc.,
before you even begin coding, then you need a different career. Fast.
Programming is all about acquiring knowledge and problem solving -- in
any language. If that isn't yer cuppa tea, find something more suited
to the typical liberal BS education you have probably had foisted off on
you in place of a real one. Fergoshsakes don't be another whiney anchor
around yer boss's neck -- do something you like.

 

[Sudsy]

Jim Cochrane wrote:

This sounds like a reasonable prediction. How do you (or others) see web
services fitting into this scheme, if at all?

An astute query!
Web Services will serve as a bridge between the .NET framework and
the rest of the world. EDI is not going to disappear overnight but is
certainly on the way out; read the trade press for confirmation and
the moves being made by the market leaders.
XML will remain the lingua franca for extranet communication, signed &
encrypted using a combination of the currently available tools and/or
protocols. Binary, serialized objects or RMI (RPC) are still viable
and efficient within the boundaries of the corporate intranet.
Java is going to be with us for at least 8-10 years, possibly more.
The standard extensions and richness of the language, drawing from
C and other progenitors, bode well for longevity, not to mention the
portability advantages.
I believe that Roedy is right insofar as the user interaction aspect.
HTTP/HTML is too limiting in the current invocation. We're almost
certainly going to witness a new model within the next five years or
so. My crystal ball is cloudy that far out so I won't hazard a guess
as to the likely champion.
In any case, Java on the server side is highly likely to continue to
power the "serious" sites.
As always, YMMV.

 

[Sudsy]

Job Numbers wrote:

English isn't my native language. Everything I still said is correct.
Given that you only found problem in my language and not the actual content
means that you are gasping at straws.

If you mean "grasping at straws" then you're completely wrong.
"Everything you said" is still mostly incorrect. You've made some
sweeping generalizations which are simply not applicable.
I'm happy that you've found a particular set of tools which serve
you well but there are a lot of alternatives out there.
You're welcome to proselytize to your heart's content!
Five citations of your particular suite of tools in a 24-hour
period is not going to alter the fact that most people have
chosen differently. Search the archives of this list and others
for confirmation.
ps. Reply also sent via provided e-mail address. All future
exchanges should occur off-line.

 

[Sudsy]

Job Numbers wrote:

English isn't my native language. Everything I still said is correct.
Given that you only found problem in my language and not the actual content
means that you are gasping at straws.

If you mean "grasping at straws" then you're completely wrong.
"Everything you said" is still mostly incorrect. You've made some
sweeping generalizations which are simply not applicable.
I'm happy that you've found a particular set of tools which serve
you well but there are a lot of alternatives out there.
You're welcome to proselytize to your heart's content!
Five citations of your particular suite of tools in a 24-hour
period is not going to alter the fact that most people have
chosen differently. Search the archives of this list and others
for confirmation.
ps. I tried to reply to the e-mail address you posted under but
it comes back as invalid (surprise, surprise!). Please reply
off-line via e-mail (my return address is valid) if you wish
to discuss further. Save the bandwidth of everyone else.

 

[Juha Laiho]

Not all of J2EE, just the bloated EJBs. Stuff like java mail, jdbc, etc. is
still widely used and don't have great learning curves or have a gazillion
things to remember to make it work properly. In fact, without them I don't
even know how you would accomplish most common business applications.

For those really working with J2EE / EJBs;

is there anyone who shares my insight that J2EE is more a social/integration
issue than a technical one? In other words, if the application is such
that it is (mostly) created by just one team, and doesn't need complex
interfaces to other applications, J2EE (EJBs) is more a burden than
a relief?

JavaMail, JDBC, and other "functionality APIs" clearly have their value
in the functionality that they probvide (and especially in standardising
that functionality), but for J2EE app servers/EJB's I've failed to see
the functional value, but I'm seeing potential "social" value in it, when
used for subsystem integration/communication.

 

[Job Numbers]

For those really working with J2EE / EJBs;

is there anyone who shares my insight that J2EE is more a
social/integration
issue than a technical one? In other words, if the application is such
that it is (mostly) created by just one team, and doesn't need complex
interfaces to other applications, J2EE (EJBs) is more a burden than
a relief?

JavaMail, JDBC, and other "functionality APIs" clearly have their value
in the functionality that they probvide (and especially in standardising
that functionality), but for J2EE app servers/EJB's I've failed to see
the functional value, but I'm seeing potential "social" value in it, when
used for subsystem integration/communication.
--
Wolf a.k.a. Juha Laiho Espoo, Finland
(GC 3.0) GIT d- s+: a C++ ULSH++++$ P++@ L+++ E- W+$@ N++ !K w !O !M V
PS(+) PE Y+ PGP(+) t- 5 !X R !tv b+ !DI D G e+ h---- r+++ y++++
"...cancel my subscription to the resurrection!" (Jim Morrison)

The thing is, a lot of the times you want to integrate sub-systems is with
local calls, as that's most certainly a lot faster than putting parts of
your program on different boxes (in most cases). This is why they added
local interfaces so you didn't have to use the remote ones (which were the
only ones you could use at one time).

In the end, I'm positive I could develop a 50 table application with
mappings and business objects 10 times faster than you could do it with ejb.
The people are realizing is that ejb gives you this and that, but you can
use seperate solutions (like transaction management, persistence, security)
that are better suited to their own tasks and just put them together in a
light-weight container.

It seems that the smaller your resources are, the more you want to stay away
from ejb if you don't need that kind of functionality. It's also true that
the more resources you have, you might still want to stay away from it since
increased project complexity with a lot of people is a lot of complexity!

Just do this. Make a program that stores company information - that's it.
Now, write one with spring/hibernate and the other with just ejb and you'll
see that one is a lot more complicated than the other.

 

[Sudsy]

Juha Laiho wrote:

For those really working with J2EE / EJBs;

is there anyone who shares my insight that J2EE is more a social/integration
issue than a technical one? In other words, if the application is such
that it is (mostly) created by just one team, and doesn't need complex
interfaces to other applications, J2EE (EJBs) is more a burden than
a relief?

If you're working on an application which requires, or might require in
the future, connection to multiple databases on multiple servers (with
two-phase commit) or access to legacy applications then you probably
need J2EE. It's a completely integrated environment. You could lash
something together using separate components but that would take time.
You also couldn't guarantee that everything would work in unison. Hence
the integrated approach provided by J2EE.
Note also that the connector architecture permits you to link to your
legacy applications written in CICS or whatever. There's also the
ability to link to existing CORBA apps. Simple, stand-alone apps don't
require J2EE; large, complex, distributed ones do.
I'd also suggest that if you find yourself implementing business logic
in your RDBMS via stored procedures or triggers then you might want to
migrate to using session beans with J2EE. It provides you with database
independence. You won't face a huge migration cost if you decide to
change your back-end database. That alone can justify the cost of a
J2EE server.

 

[Dave Monroe]

I am looking for insight into becoming a Java Programmer. I am currently
studying C# but I would love to learn Java. However, for a non Java
person researching Java is an absolute nightmare. I mean things like
j2ee, swing, awt, this framework..that framework. I am currently a web
developer and would probably benefit most from JSP, Applets, and any
other web centric stuff.

Can someone provide me resource or give some insight as to this very
huge world of Java. What would be best for a web guy to learn, what are
the most commonly used Java technologies?

Any pointers are much appreciated. My goal is within the next year
become fluent in C# and gain a much needed knowledge in Java. In a year
I might even give up C# and .Net for Java depending on my experience.

I can say that java development seems to be much cheaper than .Net for
the developer. The tools, servers, and information is much more readily
available without cash flow.

Thanks
Marty U.

You're going to find that C# and Java have a very similar structure and syntax.

Check out: C# for Java Programmers, Microsoft Press.

 

[Marty U.]

Wow -- I gotta chime in here --
First, be sure to read sudsy's comments -- I ditto
Second, which should be first, your attitude sucks. If you don't really
dig getting yer neurons dirty learning all the ins and outs of what
tools you need, how to find them and make them work together, etc.,
before you even begin coding, then you need a different career. Fast.
Programming is all about acquiring knowledge and problem solving -- in
any language. If that isn't yer cuppa tea, find something more suited
to the typical liberal BS education you have probably had foisted off on
you in place of a real one. Fergoshsakes don't be another whiney anchor
around yer boss's neck -- do something you like.

Damn your post sounds just like if you go to a Linux NG, rtfm. If you
are any inclination as to the rest of the Java programmers I wouldn't
dare become a fellow programmer.

Furthermore, I don't have a BS education but simply an AS. The rest is
self made with pure real world experience. And I really don't understand
your comment about my attitude. Have you been to your local Barnes and
Noble book store and looked at the Java section? I guess when you were
beginning you automatically knew which book to pick up and where to
begin, I guess from your comments you would reply "yes".

dig getting yer neurons dirty learning all the ins and outs of what
tools you need, how to find them and make them work together, etc.,
before you even begin coding, then you need a different career.

</snip>

Yeah this post was just a way for you to teach me Java in 24hours. Trust
me I spend countless hours studying and practicing after I get off from
work everyday. Please don't tell me about getting my "neurons" dirty.
On top of that I also shuffle a family life.

I should probably quit so I don't affend anyone. I am not directing this
post at the Java developers in general. However, it seems since there is
this huge competition between .Net and Java that Java people would be
more than happy to welcome new programmers to help increase usage of Java.

Anyway guess I will go do something more productive like read the latest
book I just ordered and start working on a project I have accepted to do
for a learning experience.

Thanks to all for the suggestions, and thanks for giving me the insight
as to the attitude of some Java programmers. Or should I say one!

Marty U.

 

[Tim Ward]

However, it seems since there is
this huge competition between .Net and Java that Java people would be
more than happy to welcome new programmers to help increase usage of Java.

Er, no. The more Java programmers there are the less they get paid. We
should welcome additional competition that's going to drive our prices
down??

 

[Roedy Green]

Er, no. The more Java programmers there are the less they get paid. We
should welcome additional competition that's going to drive our prices
down??

You need a certain base number to keep the language alive and
considered seriously. Consider the plight of the Eiffel programmer.
He has a very small market to himself. Employers don't use Eiffel
because there is a shortage of Eiffel programmers. The language is not
mainstream enough.

I had a talk with my boss a decade or so ago about the possibility of
doing a project in Smalltalk. He said no way, no matter how productive
we were. Smalltalk programmers were harder to find and more expensive.
He could hire C programmers by the truckload for peanuts.

His company is now bankrupt.

 

[Marty U.]

Er, no. The more Java programmers there are the less they get paid. We
should welcome additional competition that's going to drive our prices
down??

My only point was mainly what Roedy Green was stating in the next
message. If Microsoft markets .Net and begins to take market share, Java
programmers will have to work cheaper anyway just to maintain employment
due to supply vs. demand.

This is a dead thread to me, I didn't want to start an argument just to
get a little insight into the Java language.

Thanks to all who replied with the suggestions.

Marty U.

 

[marcus]

Hmm, attitude?
"researching Java is an absolute nightmare"
"I guess when you were
beginning you automatically knew which book to pick up and where to
begin, I guess from your comments you would reply "yes"."
"I should probably quit so I don't affend anyone."
"Anyway guess I will go do something more productive"
"attitude of some Java programmers"
wow --
You come across as though you have a very unpleasant task ahead of you,
rather than being at the start of a long and interesting career. I
wouldn't have a person with an attitude in my company. That's my attitude.
-- clh