Video: Ryan Dahl: Node.js


L

Lasse Reichstein Nielsen

Ry Nohryb said:
Yes, you ought to. Node.js has nothing to do with YUI. Node.js is a
wonderful thing for any JS programmer, even more so if he happens to
love unix.

Yes, I think I like it, but I've had far too little time to actually
do something with it. :)

/L
 
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Michael Haufe (\TNO\)

Certainly not TNO's posts. I think he's very very much disoriented wrt
Node. Node is a tiny, lovely, and damn fast thing that you program in
our much beloved JS. I'm using it now in every project. In some cases
it's running 40 times faster than the Ruby tool it replaces... DAMN
FAST :)

So sorry for not falling into fanboyism based on a few buzzwords.
Calling something faster than Ruby isn't much of an accomplishment by
itself as its well known as a relatively slow language to start with.
In regards to "tiny", I guess you and I weren't watching the same
video with the memory statistics involved. I stand by my claim that
node.js is immature and premature. Experiment all you want, but I'd be
wary of building anything business critical on it at this point.
 
R

Ry Nohryb

So sorry for not falling into fanboyism based on a few buzzwords.
Calling something faster than Ruby isn't much of an accomplishment by
itself as its well known as a relatively slow language to start with.
In regards to "tiny", I guess you and I weren't watching the same
video with the memory statistics involved. I stand by my claim that
node.js is immature and premature. Experiment all you want, but I'd be
wary of building anything business critical on it at this point.

So sorry for not agreeing with you nor with any of your pre-judices.
 
S

Scott Sauyet

Michael said:
So sorry for not falling into fanboyism based on a few buzzwords.
Calling something faster than Ruby isn't much of an accomplishment by
itself as its well known as a relatively slow language to start with.
In regards to "tiny", I guess you and I weren't watching the same
video with the memory statistics involved. I stand by my claim that
node.js is immature and premature. Experiment all you want, but I'd be
wary of building anything business critical on it at this point.

The speaker in the video made some of the same points himself.

But immature technologies have a way of maturing, and I'm interested
in the possibilities this offers. It's clear that this is not yet
ready for prime-time. But getting involved with it now offers users
the ability to influence its development. Node.js seems to me to
offer some potential that other server-side JS solutions don't yet
have.

But I'm still hoping to hear from someone with some expertise to offer
a substantive critique of node.js.
 
R

Ry Nohryb

Apology accepted.

I'm glad to know. But you'd first step over your prejudices, 2nd try
it out, and 3rd delay arriving to any conclusions until after that,
imo. You're going to love it.
 
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Michael Haufe (\TNO\)

I'm glad to know. But you'd first step over your prejudices,

Many of the same claims were made by the author himself. Its just
simply not reliable at this point and too young.
2nd try it out,

Once it hits a 1.0 release maybe
and 3rd delay arriving to any conclusions until after that, imo. You're going to love it.

One doesn't have to use every piece of software to give a general
critique about it. I don't have to build a word processor in befunge
for example before I can conclude its not the right way to go about
it. If better examples were given more questions could be asked and
answered. But even so, before it hits a 1.0 release stage many of the
issues raised may as well disappear anyway. I don't see much utility
in crawling up its ass with a Microscope if its still in flux.
 
M

Michael Haufe (\TNO\)

The speaker in the video made some of the same points himself.

But immature technologies have a way of maturing, and I'm interested
in the possibilities this offers.  It's clear that this is not yet
ready for prime-time.  But getting involved with it now offers users
the ability to influence its development.  Node.js seems to me to
offer some potential that other server-side JS solutions don't yet
have.

But I'm still hoping to hear from someone with some expertise to offer
a substantive critique of node.js.

Seems a bit meaningless beyond a general overview if its as young as
is claimed.
 
J

john

Its an old idea in a new form. node.js is far from the first foray of
JavaScript into the server (which was first seen in 1998 AFAIK with
Netscape).

it's quite a bit more than just another "foray of JavaScript into the
server". you could write a complete HTTP server with it, or you could
use it on your laptop as a replacement for bash to script repetitive
system tasks (i know Windows has some kind of system scripting
environment that utilizes JScript but not being a Windows user it's of
little interest).

i don't know exactly what you're referring to from Netscape in 1998 but
i'm guessing that was more about sharing front-end and back-end code;
such as used in form validation. that's hardly comparable to what you
could do with Node. could you use this Netscape invention to script your
laptop in 1998? for example could you have used it create a build tool?
could you have built a simple HTTP server with it? an IRC server?
So is it innovative? No.

i'll take your word for it. besides i haven't claimed it anything more
than interesting; though i'd have thought particularly so for those
involved with ECMAScript on a daily basis. i don't mind being wrong.
This is a false characterization and exaggeration of the people who
visit this group.

so that's a "no" in response to the question. glad to hear it.
 
J

john

Calling something faster than Ruby isn't much of an accomplishment by
itself as its well known as a relatively slow language to start with.

how about faster that Python, Perl or some other JIT compiled dynamic
language?
In regards to "tiny", I guess you and I weren't watching the same
video with the memory statistics involved. I stand by my claim that
node.js is immature and premature. Experiment all you want, but I'd be
wary of building anything business critical on it at this point.

the creator of Node said as much himself so i'm not sure what the point
of your repeating it as "my claim" is. perhaps for the benefit of those
who haven't seen the video. certainly Ry was well aware since he
presumably watched the video before posting the link.
 
J

john

it's too bad that the experts/regulars in this group seem to be so
unaware of such an interesting project as to not even recognize its
name. [...] do
the people around here with a deep understanding of ECMAScript really
not find any interest in the language outside a browsing context?

Please don't mistake the words of one person for a general consensus.
I'm sure many of the regulars are aware of the potential of server-side
JS; one of them posted the link in the first place.

fair enough; but it was not the first time those among the all-time top
posters here were confused at the mention of Node. and as has been
pointed Node is not just another server-side implementation of
ECMAScript; it's much more interesting than that (at least to one
hobbyist programmer).
 
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Michael Haufe (\TNO\)

it's quite a bit more than just another "foray of JavaScript into the
server".

Maybe. But don't overlook what a has already been done in this space.
you could write a complete HTTP server with it, or you could
use it on your laptop as a replacement for bash to script repetitive
system tasks (i know Windows has some kind of system scripting
environment that utilizes JScript but not being a Windows user it's of
little interest).

Ok. In JScript you can fiddle with sockets and threads all you want as
well. So the claim can go either way.
i don't know exactly what you're referring to from Netscape in 1998 but
i'm guessing that was more about sharing front-end and back-end code;
such as used in form validation. that's hardly comparable to what you
could do with Node.

It was the oldest example I can think of for the language on the
server. You come across as if this was the first time its happened.
could you use this Netscape invention to script your
laptop in 1998? for example could you have used it create a build tool?
could you have built a simple HTTP server with it? an IRC server?

You've been able to do this with JScript for at least 10 years I
think.
i'll take your word for it. besides i haven't claimed it anything more
than interesting;

Fair enough. I agree that it is.
though i'd have thought particularly so for those
involved with ECMAScript on a daily basis. i don't mind being wrong.

I think it needs a little more time to get a real strong opinion on
it. It could potentially be quite interesting.
 
M

Michael Haufe (\TNO\)

how about faster that Python, Perl or some other JIT compiled dynamic
language?

A bit meaningless if its a memory hog. It'd have to be seen applied at
scale to make a value judgement.
 
D

David Mark

it's too bad that the experts/regulars in this group seem to be so
unaware of such an interesting project as to not even recognize its
name. to a novice (i.e. hobby programmer) such as myself it looks like
one of the more interesting additions to the ECMAScript ecosystem in
recent times (certainly more so than the seemingly never ending supply
of "cross browser" scripting libraries). doing system scripting, HTTP
servers, database drivers, web frameworks etc. in ECMAScript would seem
like more exciting work than what the typical web application offers. do
the people around here with a deep understanding of ECMAScript really
not find any interest in the language outside a browsing context?



certainly no more "stupid" than a library named "My Library." honestly,


Oh, I don't know. The name is widely misunderstood though. It's
really the name of the Web app as there is no single library (it has
many possible permutations). The "my" refers to /you/ (like the "Me"
in MobileMe or the "My" in My Computer). In other words, it is
customizable for each user.
no offense meant as your library (among others maintained by regulars
here) has proved quite educational in my (so far insignificant) foray
into browser scripting; but this seems like a really silly criticism in
the broad scheme of things. in fact most popular open source projects
seem to have "stupid" names. perhaps it's part of a grand strategy :)

Perhaps.
 
J

john

It was the oldest example I can think of for the language on the
server. You come across as if this was the first time its happened.

right. as someone who has never used Windows i've never been able to do
any system automation with ECMAScript. or maybe i just never realized it
was possible. any Debian GNU/Linux or Mac OS users have pointers to the
available options for scripting system tasks with ECMAScript?
You've been able to do this with JScript for at least 10 years I
think.

i can't find any examples of people writing simple HTTP or IRC servers
with JScript. could you provide any details whatsoever about where to
find information on creating a simple HTTP server with JScript? surely
if it's been possible for a decade someone has published information
about it.

or were you referring only to the build tool example? if so then sure, i
even mentioned that ability existed in Windows. being able to complete
(the most trivial) one of three examples is hardly the same as being
able to do all three.

p.s. i just noticed that Thunderbird helpfully adds those red
misspelling dots to "ECMAScript" and when you click to see the suggested
replacements the first one is "JavaScript" :)
 
D

David Mark

it's too bad that the experts/regulars in this group seem to be so
unaware of such an interesting project as to not even recognize its
name.

It's not my job to keep up with every script ever written. I go where
the money is (and that's the client side where JS is concerned). ;)
 
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David Mark

right. as someone who has never used Windows i've never been able to do
any system automation with ECMAScript. or maybe i just never realized it
was possible. any Debian GNU/Linux or Mac OS users have pointers to the
available options for scripting system tasks with ECMAScript?



i can't find any examples of people writing simple HTTP or IRC servers
with JScript. could you provide any details whatsoever about where to
find information on creating a simple HTTP server with JScript? surely
if it's been possible for a decade someone has published information
about it.

It's not too difficult if you are familiar with the Windows Sockets
API. The way I would do it is to write an ActiveX object (in either VC
++ or VB) that handles all of the socket IO and instantiate it from a
shell script. .NET could be used for the middle piece as well, but I
never got into that. Such applications can be run from the command
line, other Windows applications and even Office macros. These
possibilities have existed for some time (over a decade), but I have
no idea who (if anyone) has used them to create an HTTP or IRC server.
 
M

Michael Haufe (\TNO\)

It's not too difficult if you are familiar with the Windows Sockets
API.

Which is available through the .NET framework and as a traditional COM
component on Windows machines. Hence available to JScript and
JScript.NET
 The way I would do it is to write an ActiveX object (in either VC
++ or VB) that handles all of the socket IO and instantiate it from a
shell script.  .NET could be used for the middle piece as well, but I
never got into that.  

Indeed. luckily this part is already written. Of course JScript.NET
could be used to write it for WScript to use. But that would be a bit
weird I think.
Such applications can be run from the command
line, other Windows applications and even Office macros.  These
possibilities have existed for some time (over a decade), but I have
no idea who (if anyone) has used them to create an HTTP or IRC server.

I do recall seeing an IRC server at one point. Not certain of the HTTP
server though. I'd have to dig through the web archive at some old ASP
+ sites (or whatever it was called backed then).
 
R

Ry Nohryb

Which is available through the .NET framework and as a traditional COM
component on Windows machines. Hence available to JScript and
JScript.NET


Indeed. luckily this part is already written. Of course JScript.NET
could be used to write it for WScript to use. But that would be a bit
weird I think.


I do recall seeing an IRC server at one point. Not certain of the HTTP
server though. I'd have to dig through the web archive at some old ASP
+ sites (or whatever it was called backed then).

So, a server in JScript, you say ? yeah, hahahaha, good joke... that
explains it all about you two. (deep smell of windows)
 
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Michael Haufe (\TNO\)

So, a server in JScript, you say ? yeah, hahahaha, good joke... that
explains it all about you two. (deep smell of windows)

Expand your horizons my friend. You're living in a bubble.
 

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