Caption for tables for data.

[Luigi Donatello Asero]

I have a table on the page
http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/hyresfoermedlingdel2.html
This table is for data because it shows different prices.
I use a <CAPTION> for this table.
Now the question is whether a <CAPTION> should be used as a header or not.
How
long may it be?

 

[jake]

I have a table on the page
http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/hyresfoermedlingdel2.html
This table is for data because it shows different prices.
I use a <CAPTION> for this table.
Now the question is whether a <CAPTION> should be used as a header or not.

How
long may it be?

How long does it need to be?(You might want to code up your headings as headings (<th>) and use some
abbreviations (abbr) to make life easier for screen-reader/voice-browser
navigation.)

regards.

 

[Luigi Donatello Asero]

not.



How long does it need to be?
(You might want to code up your headings as headings (<th>) and use some
abbreviations (abbr) to make life easier for screen-reader/voice-browser
navigation.)

regards.

Unfortunately I am not sure that I understod when it is appropriate to use a
caption and when a heading.
Do not both of them sum up what the table is about?
Regards

 

[jake]

Unfortunately I am not sure that I understod when it is appropriate to use a
caption and when a heading.
Do not both of them sum up what the table is about?
Regards

I don't speak Swedish, but if what you have got in your <caption> is
providing a 'heading' or description of your table, than that's fine.

As I also mentioned, you may want to consider the mark-up for the table
e.g. put in headers (th), abbr, id, etc.

Without knowing what the column/rows actually say (do you want to
provide an English version/translation?) it's rather hard to recommend
the additions required.

regards.

 

[Luigi Donatello Asero]

I don't speak Swedish, but if what you have got in your <caption> is
providing a 'heading' or description of your table, than that's fine.

Yes, it is.

As I also mentioned, you may want to consider the mark-up for the table
e.g. put in headers (th), abbr, id, etc.

<th> should be the equivalent of a <h1>, <h2>, <h3> etc.. should it not?
Abbr is short for abbreviation isn´t it? Do you mean "to shorten up the
text?

Without knowing what the column/rows actually say (do you want to
provide an English version/translation?) it's rather hard to recommend
the additions required.

I am going to have an english page on the same subject as well. However the
pages in different languages are often not exactly the translation of each
other because
users coming from different countries may have different needs.
For example I have some pages in Italian which are for landlords/landladies
who want to lease holidays lodgings.

 

[Kathy]

I have a table on the page
http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/hyresfoermedlingdel2.html
This table is for data because it shows different prices.
I use a <CAPTION> for this table.
Now the question is whether a <CAPTION> should be used as a header or not.
How
long may it be?

I use captions as the title for a table, there is only one caption for a
table.

I use <th> for column headers, I may have one <th> for each column.

- Kathy

 

[Leif K-Brooks]

<th> should be the equivalent of a <h1>, <h2>, <h3> etc.. should it not?

No. A <h#> applies to a section of a page, whereas a <th> is a
column/row heading in a heading. In this ascii art table:

Name | Evilness
----------|---------
SCO | 100%
Microsoft | 75%
W3C | 10%

The headings are "Name" and "Evilness". Notice that they only apply to
their own column.

 

[jake]

Yes, it is.

<th> should be the equivalent of a <h1>, <h2>, <h3> etc.. should it not?
Abbr is short for abbreviation isn´t it? Do you mean "to shorten up the
text?

Not exactly.

Consider a simple table (similar to Leif's):

DAY OF THE WEEK | TEMPERATURE (IN DEGREES C.)
-----------------------|--------------------------------------
MONDAY | 28
TUESDAY | 31
WEDNESDAY | 27

You would want to describe 'DAY OF THE WEEK' and 'TEMPERATURE (IN
DEGREES C.) as column headers. i.e. instead of <td></td>, they are
<th></th>.

This means that someone using a suitable screen-reader/voice-browser
will hear, when navigating around the table and moving from
cell-to-cell: 'DAY OF THE WEEK: MONDAY', 'TEMPERATURE (IN DEGREES C.):
28'.

However, it's easier on the ear to replace 'DAY OF THE WEEK' with 'DAY'
(when spoken) and 'TEMPERATURE (IN DEGREES C.)' with 'TEMPERATURE' (when
spoken).

This way they'd hear 'DAY: MONDAY' and 'TEMPERATURE: 28', etc. That's
what the 'abbr' is for.

<th scope="col" id="C1" abbr="DAY" >DAY OF THE WEEK</th>

The W3C site gives some quite good examples on how to mark-up a table
correctly.

I am going to have an english page on the same subject as well. However the
pages in different languages are often not exactly the translation of each
other because
users coming from different countries may have different needs.
For example I have some pages in Italian which are for landlords/landladies
who want to lease holidays lodgings.

Fine. If you want to discuss further, those of us who don't speak
Swedish would appreciate knowing what the contents of the table on that
Swedish page actually mean.

regards.

 

[Luigi Donatello Asero]

Not exactly.

Consider a simple table (similar to Leif's):

DAY OF THE WEEK | TEMPERATURE (IN DEGREES C.)
-----------------------|--------------------------------------
MONDAY | 28
TUESDAY | 31
WEDNESDAY | 27

You would want to describe 'DAY OF THE WEEK' and 'TEMPERATURE (IN
DEGREES C.) as column headers. i.e. instead of <td></td>, they are
<th></th>.

This means that someone using a suitable screen-reader/voice-browser
will hear, when navigating around the table and moving from
cell-to-cell: 'DAY OF THE WEEK: MONDAY', 'TEMPERATURE (IN DEGREES C.):
28'.

However, it's easier on the ear to replace 'DAY OF THE WEEK' with 'DAY'
(when spoken) and 'TEMPERATURE (IN DEGREES C.)' with 'TEMPERATURE' (when
spoken).

This way they'd hear 'DAY: MONDAY' and 'TEMPERATURE: 28', etc. That's
what the 'abbr' is for.

<th scope="col" id="C1" abbr="DAY" >DAY OF THE WEEK</th>

The W3C site gives some quite good examples on how to mark-up a table
correctly.

Fine. If you want to discuss further, those of us who don't speak
Swedish would appreciate knowing what the contents of the table on that
Swedish page actually mean.

The page contains several variables which affect the price for the
intermediation for rent of holidays lodgings.
On the left column I divided customers in classes ( for example student, old
customers, new customers) and I also added another factor, that is whether
there are already pictures of the holiday lodging on the website.
All the numbers show prices in Swedish crowns (SEK), that means how much a
customer should pay for the intermediation for rent of holidays lodgings.
The second, the third, the fourth and the fifth <th> show another variable
which affects the intermediation fee, that is how long the turist want to
rent the lodging.
On the grounds of your explanation I am uncertain though whether I have
placed them properly. Perhaps I should also place these factors on the first
column and then put such <th> for prices

 

[jake]

"jake" <[email protected]> skrev i meddelandet
news:[email protected]... [snip]

If you want to discuss further, those of us who don't speak
Swedish would appreciate knowing what the contents of the table on that
Swedish page actually mean.

The page contains several variables which affect the price for the
intermediation for rent of holidays lodgings.
On the left column I divided customers in classes ( for example student, old
customers, new customers) and I also added another factor, that is whether
there are already pictures of the holiday lodging on the website.
All the numbers show prices in Swedish crowns (SEK), that means how much a
customer should pay for the intermediation for rent of holidays lodgings.
The second, the third, the fourth and the fifth <th> show another variable
which affects the intermediation fee, that is how long the turist want to
rent the lodging.
On the grounds of your explanation I am uncertain though whether I have
placed them properly. Perhaps I should also place these factors on the first
column and then put such <th> for prices

I see you've changed your table. It's a start, although causing a
horizontal scroll at 800x600 in IE6.

But I think you are going to have to work on the contents of the heading
cells as they seem rather large. (Don't forget about suitable abbr="..."
entries.)

Also, you have the same text in each top heading cell:
"förmedlingsavgiften ligger på" . Could it not go somewhere else as a
single entry -- in a footer perhaps?

From your description of the table, perhaps the left-hand column is also
a set of headers?

If you have a note in a footer saying (in Swedish) 'all costs in Swedish
Kronner' (or whatever), you don't really need to include 'SEK' in each
data cell.

Also, your centre-justified text is harder to read that right-ragged
text.

regards.

 

[Luigi Donatello Asero]

"jake" <[email protected]> skrev i meddelandet
news:[email protected]... [snip]

If you want to discuss further, those of us who don't speak
Swedish would appreciate knowing what the contents of the table on that
Swedish page actually mean.

The page contains several variables which affect the price for the
intermediation for rent of holidays lodgings.
On the left column I divided customers in classes ( for example student, old
customers, new customers) and I also added another factor, that is whether
there are already pictures of the holiday lodging on the website.
All the numbers show prices in Swedish crowns (SEK), that means how much a
customer should pay for the intermediation for rent of holidays lodgings.
The second, the third, the fourth and the fifth <th> show another variable
which affects the intermediation fee, that is how long the turist want to
rent the lodging.
On the grounds of your explanation I am uncertain though whether I have
placed them properly. Perhaps I should also place these factors on the first
column and then put such <th> for prices

I see you've changed your table. It's a start, although causing a
horizontal scroll at 800x600 in IE6.

But I think you are going to have to work on the contents of the heading
cells as they seem rather large. (Don't forget about suitable abbr="..."
entries.)

Also, you have the same text in each top heading cell:
"förmedlingsavgiften ligger på" . Could it not go somewhere else as a
single entry -- in a footer perhaps?

Well, yes but I was thinking to those hearing the text like
"När du är tidigare kund och när hyrestiden är upp till en vecka
förmedlingsavgiften ligger på"
which approximately means "if you are an old customer and if the leasing
time is not over one week, the intermediation fee is"
Now, if I cancel "förmedlingsavgiften ligger på" I would have "if you are an
old customer and if the leasing time is not over one week,"
and then the price. Do you think that it would be easy to understand for
those hearing the message but not reading it if I shorten it up?

From your description of the table, perhaps the left-hand column is also
a set of headers?

Yes, it is. Can I have headers for the rows too? How do I call them?

If you have a note in a footer saying (in Swedish) 'all costs in Swedish
Kronner' (or whatever), you don't really need to include 'SEK' in each
data cell.

Of course, one way would be to have long notes and a table which is smaller.

 

[jake]

"jake" <[email protected]> skrev i meddelandet


http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/hyresfoermedlingdel2.html



Well, yes but I was thinking to those hearing the text like
"När du är tidigare kund och när hyrestiden är upp till en vecka
förmedlingsavgiften ligger på"
which approximately means "if you are an old customer and if the leasing
time is not over one week, the intermediation fee is"
Now, if I cancel "förmedlingsavgiften ligger på" I would have "if you are an
old customer and if the leasing time is not over one week,"
and then the price. Do you think that it would be easy to understand for
those hearing the message but not reading it if I shorten it up?

It seems OK. Of course, you can have more than one horizontal heading
row; an initial header, spanning the width of the table, could be
something like "The intermediation fees in SEK"

Yes, it is. Can I have headers for the rows too? Yes
How do I call them?

Of course, one way would be to have long notes and a table which is smaller.

Yes. Of course.

 

[Luigi Donatello Asero]

I use captions as the title for a table, there is only one caption for a
table.

I use <th> for column headers, I may have one <th> for each column.

- Kathy

Thank you Kathy and Jake I think the table looks a little better now.
But what about the notes which I wrote on the page
http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/hyresfoermedlingdel2.html
in order to explain what the table is about? Should I rather write them as a
list?
May-be I could also shorten up the text in the cells on the first column and
write other notes.
On the other hand if I write more notes I should not need use "abbr", should
I?

 

[jake]

Thank you Kathy and Jake I think the table looks a little better now.
But what about the notes which I wrote on the page
http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/hyresfoermedlingdel2.html
in order to explain what the table is about? Should I rather write them as a
list?
May-be I could also shorten up the text in the cells on the first column and
write other notes.
On the other hand if I write more notes I should not need use "abbr", should
I?

As I've previously mentioned, I don't understand Swedish, and so it's
difficult to make any comment when I don't understand what I'm seeing.

Now, if you were to publish the table with an English translation (for
discussion purposes only), that would be a different matter ;-)

At the moment, if I move down through a column of cells, I hear the LHS
heading followed by the cell content; if I move across a row of cells I
hear the top heading followed by the cell content.

This is not too bad for navigating this particular table, as it's not
very big.

For example, in my reader:

From wherever I am in the table, I press 'Home' and hear:
'När du är ny kund men bilderna redan finns på webbplatsen och'

As I move across the cells, I hear:
'1 vecka SEK 1200' and then '1-2 veckor SEK 1500'

If I then move down a cell, I hear:
'När du är student och bilderna redan finns på webbplatsen och SEK 1000'

So, not too bad for navigation.

If I was navigating the table regularly, however, I might want to hear a
shortened version of the LHS header -- and this is where the 'abbr'
comes in.

(If you wanted to hear both top and LHS headings for each cell as you
navigate the table, you'll need to read up on putting 'header=' and
'id=' entries in the <td></td>.

regards.

ps. Bear in mind that, as currently written, a person using a screen
reader will hear your notes *after* they've encountered your table.regards

 

[Luigi Donatello Asero]

In message <[email protected]>, Luigi Donatello
Now, if you were to publish the table with an English translation (for
discussion purposes only), that would be a different matter ;-)

You can see the table in english at
http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/en/test.html

If I was navigating the table regularly, however, I might want to hear a
shortened version of the LHS header -- and this is where the 'abbr'
comes in.

(If you wanted to hear both top and LHS headings for each cell as you
navigate the table, you'll need to read up on putting 'header=' and
'id=' entries in the <td></td>.

ps. Bear in mind that, as currently written, a person using a screen
reader will hear your notes *after* they've encountered your table.

Now I have put the notes before the table

--
Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
http://www.italymap.dk
http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/oversattning.html






Regards

 

[jake]

You can see the table in english at
http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/en/test.html

".......... pictures of this lodging have already been published on the
website ......". What does this mean?

(note: In English we wouldn't use the words 'this lodgings have' --
maybe 'the accommodation has')

Do you mean that I should change <td> with <th>?
No.

Now I have put the notes before the table

I don't think I understand what they're telling me. Are the figures in
the table the rent costs, and therefore your notes are going to include
a separate 'intermediation' fee? Or what, exactly?2 other points:
----------------
(a) ".......Who you are and what you are looking for" ........ I don't
think that you need this heading, do you?

(b) It does seem to me (once I understand what you mean by some of the
points that I raised above) that the table will need a few lay-out
changes to reduce the amount of words in the headings.

regards

 

[Luigi Donatello Asero]

".......... pictures of this lodging have already been published on the
website ......". What does this mean?

(note: In English we wouldn't use the words 'this lodgings have' --
maybe 'the accommodation has')

Yes, of course, I shall correct this mistake ( singular with plural)

I don't think I understand what they're telling me. Are the figures in
the table the rent costs, and therefore your notes are going to include
a separate 'intermediation' fee? Or what, exactly?

No, the prices in the table are only for the intermediation, the customer
pays an intermediation fee to my one-man business
Scaiecat Spa Gigi and the rent to the firm or the person/persons who lease
the lodging. http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/en/ifr.html That is explained
better in Swedish
http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/hyresfoermedlingdel3.html, I want to
write more in english in future.

2 other points:

Different customers pay different intermediation fee, the price of this
intermediation fee also depends on which loding they are looking for, that
means if I have already put some pictures of this lodging on the website
when he or she sends me his or her inquiry and how long the wanted leasing
time is.
However this intermediation fee is not a part of the rent, it is what the
customer pays for my intermediation.

(b) It does seem to me (once I understand what you mean by some of the
points that I raised above) that the table will need a few lay-out
changes to reduce the amount of words in the headings.

See above

 

[jake]

[snip]
[snip]


the prices in the table are only for the intermediation, the customer
pays an intermediation fee to my one-man business
Scaiecat Spa Gigi and the rent to the firm or the person/persons who lease
the lodging. http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/en/ifr.html That is explained
better in Swedish
http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/hyresfoermedlingdel3.html, I want to
write more in english in future.

2 other points:

Different customers pay different intermediation fee, the price of this
intermediation fee also depends on which loding they are looking for, that
means if I have already put some pictures of this lodging on the website
when he or she sends me his or her inquiry and how long the wanted leasing
time is.
However this intermediation fee is not a part of the rent, it is what the
customer pays for my intermediation.

[snip]

Something along these lines?
http://www.gododdin.demon.co.uk/ng/TAB.JPG

regards.

 

[Luigi Donatello Asero]

[snip]

You can see the table in english at
http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/en/test.html

[snip]


the prices in the table are only for the intermediation, the customer
pays an intermediation fee to my one-man business
Scaiecat Spa Gigi and the rent to the firm or the person/persons who lease
the lodging. http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/en/ifr.html That is explained
better in Swedish
http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/hyresfoermedlingdel3.html, I want to
write more in english in future.

2 other points:

Different customers pay different intermediation fee, the price of this
intermediation fee also depends on which loding they are looking for, that
means if I have already put some pictures of this lodging on the website
when he or she sends me his or her inquiry and how long the wanted leasing
time is.
However this intermediation fee is not a part of the rent, it is what the
customer pays for my intermediation.

[snip]

Something along these lines?
http://www.gododdin.demon.co.uk/ng/TAB.JPG

Yes, except for that I do not mean "details" but pictures of the wanted
lodging.
http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/hyresfoermedlingdel2.html