lacking follow-through

C

castironpi

I don't think anybody here in c.l.p minds reading suggestions
for language features/changes, but often what the poster in
question writes is just an incomprehensible collection of
vaguely philosophical-sounding metaphores and similes
reminiscent of a hoax paper submitted as a joke to a
post-modern "journal" of some pretend science or other.

I would almost say Grant's criticism is too harsh, and I don't think
'incomprehensible metaphors' is really a problem on Py-Dev or CL-Py,
though I feel that sometimes people aren't posting in earnest. I
certainly have heard some in real life though.

In some cases, I have observed that people are expressing things that
they genuinely have perceived, and merely haven't applied the logic
necessary to notice the inconsistency in their metaphor, which is the
thing that makes them 'incomprehensible' to mature logicians like
Grant.

For example, I sometimes hear people talk about salary as though it
were social approval, and vice versa. Even though the analogy doesn't
hold in every case generally, it is still a good way to express
yourself in many contexts, and especially when the more precise word
isn't on the tip of your tongue.
 
S

Steve Holden

castironpi said:
No, I'm legit, and I believe my complaint is. That's all I can
guarantee anyway. While I'm still not a vet on Usenet, I'm still
disappointed so far. Though I should be flattered for my logic to be
ever compared to an A.I.'s.
Your various outpourings appear so rambling and ill-conceived that
silence is often the only polite response.

If you are flattered to be compared to an AI you must come from the same
race as Mr. Spock in Star Trek.
Maybe the ideas are not that groundbreaking, but they still have been
dropped instead of critiqued. Problem.

You aren't entitled to require discussion of your ideas and proposals.
The usual way of obtaining responses is to engage in a dialog,
responding intelligently and directly to any criticism or discussion.
But it's often difficult to discern what point you are trying to make.

This may be a linguistic issue, or it may be because you are running
some bizarre experiment. The jury appears to still be out on that question.

regards
Steve
 
S

Steve Holden

castironpi wrote:
[...]
For example, I sometimes hear people talk about salary as though it
were social approval, and vice versa. Even though the analogy doesn't
hold in every case generally, it is still a good way to express
yourself in many contexts, and especially when the more precise word
isn't on the tip of your tongue.

Perhaps under those circumstances the better choice is to hold off
posting and do some research until you come up with the proper word.

Precision in the expression of ideas encourages debate, whereas sloppy
"just write what you feel" is likely to result in hostile responses, as
it causes the perception that you value your own time more than that of
the people you attempt to engage.

regards
Steve
 
A

Aaron \Castironpi\ Brady

castironpi wrote:

If you are flattered to be compared to an AI you must come from the same
race as Mr. Spock in Star Trek.

No, I said 'for my logic to compared'. Speaking of which, I think you
excluded the possibility of diligent and ethical human, which meets
the criteria (of being flattered to be compared to an AI)... unless
Vulcan is just a synonym for it. If you want a discussion of why a
diligent and ethical human takes pride in / devotes effort to logic,
that's another topic that I'm happy to engage on.
You aren't entitled to require discussion of your ideas and proposals.

No, but you are entitled to human interaction. If your case is that I
should seek mine face-to-face instead of keyboard-to-screen, you
probably have a point.

....
[...]
For example, I sometimes hear people talk about salary as though it
were social approval, and vice versa.  Even though the analogy doesn't
hold in every case generally, it is still a good way to express
yourself in many contexts, and especially when the more precise word
isn't on the tip of your tongue.

Perhaps under those circumstances the better choice is to hold off
posting and do some research until you come up with the proper word.

Yes I know. Good thing everyone at Mozilla agrees with you, and
Thesaurus.Com is included in Firefox's quicksearch engines.
Precision in the expression of ideas encourages debate, whereas sloppy
"just write what you feel" is likely to result in hostile responses, as
it causes the perception that you value your own time more than that of
the people you attempt to engage.

But the value of expression and self-expression can outweigh the value
of debate, even in so stuffy a setting as a Usenet group. Make time
for both or stifle your emotions. Do you hold I should be speaking
from the heart more or less?

Regardless, you've contradicted yourself:

1) "just write what you feel" is likely to result in hostile responses
2) If you are flattered to be compared to an AI you must [not be
human]

Assume you, Steve, do as you say (practice what you preach). You do
not write either "just what you feel", nor anything that can be
compared to an A.I. Define the goal of A.I. to be logic and reasoned
"post-impulsive" deliberation (my title to define as I voiced the
flattery). Then conclude you don't post to the newsgroup. Observe
you do, and reach an absurdity. What premise do you retract?

Knowing nothing of your background in philosophy or otherwise, it may
be a little unfair to put words in your mouth like that. It's a deep
problem (that yes, does have implications on the "diligent and
ethical" issue above) of human nature and the human condition: If
you're not rational, then you're a man.

Besides, it is better to complain to the group that it is dropping my
posts than to anyone else.
 
S

Steve Holden

Aaron said:
castironpi wrote:

If you are flattered to be compared to an AI you must come from the same
race as Mr. Spock in Star Trek.

No, I said 'for my logic to compared'. Speaking of which, I think you
excluded the possibility of diligent and ethical human, which meets
the criteria (of being flattered to be compared to an AI)... unless
Vulcan is just a synonym for it. If you want a discussion of why a
diligent and ethical human takes pride in / devotes effort to logic,
that's another topic that I'm happy to engage on.
You aren't entitled to require discussion of your ideas and proposals.

No, but you are entitled to human interaction. If your case is that I
should seek mine face-to-face instead of keyboard-to-screen, you
probably have a point.

...
[...]
For example, I sometimes hear people talk about salary as though it
were social approval, and vice versa. Even though the analogy doesn't
hold in every case generally, it is still a good way to express
yourself in many contexts, and especially when the more precise word
isn't on the tip of your tongue.
Perhaps under those circumstances the better choice is to hold off
posting and do some research until you come up with the proper word.

Yes I know. Good thing everyone at Mozilla agrees with you, and
Thesaurus.Com is included in Firefox's quicksearch engines.
Precision in the expression of ideas encourages debate, whereas sloppy
"just write what you feel" is likely to result in hostile responses, as
it causes the perception that you value your own time more than that of
the people you attempt to engage.

But the value of expression and self-expression can outweigh the value
of debate, even in so stuffy a setting as a Usenet group. Make time
for both or stifle your emotions. Do you hold I should be speaking
from the heart more or less?

Regardless, you've contradicted yourself:

1) "just write what you feel" is likely to result in hostile responses
2) If you are flattered to be compared to an AI you must [not be
human]

Assume you, Steve, do as you say (practice what you preach). You do
not write either "just what you feel", nor anything that can be
compared to an A.I. Define the goal of A.I. to be logic and reasoned
"post-impulsive" deliberation (my title to define as I voiced the
flattery). Then conclude you don't post to the newsgroup. Observe
you do, and reach an absurdity. What premise do you retract?

Knowing nothing of your background in philosophy or otherwise, it may
be a little unfair to put words in your mouth like that. It's a deep
problem (that yes, does have implications on the "diligent and
ethical" issue above) of human nature and the human condition: If
you're not rational, then you're a man.

Besides, it is better to complain to the group that it is dropping my
posts than to anyone else.
The defence rests.

regards
Steve
 
C

Carl Banks

Your various outpourings appear so rambling and ill-conceived that
silence is often the only polite response.

If you are flattered to be compared to an AI you must come from the same
race as Mr. Spock in Star Trek.

I'm surprised there is anyone who still gives castironpi credit for
being fully human.


Carl Banks
 
T

Terry Reedy

Carl said:
I'm surprised there is anyone who still gives castironpi credit for
being fully human.

His recent posts have generally been quite different from those of some
months ago. Even he recognizes that they were somewhat weird and has
tried to do better.

Did he ever make any degrading attacks on people like the above, to
deserve receiving such? This reminds me of my elementary school, where
people who made social mistakes were sometimes never allowed to recover
but were dumped on for years.

tjr
 
P

Paul Boddie

His recent posts have generally been quite different from those of some
months ago. Even he recognizes that they were somewhat weird and has
tried to do better.

And I think we should at least go along with people if they're willing
to raise their level of discussion. I'd much rather read messages at
the level of the one which initiated this thread than idiotic,
supposedly humorous responses about contributors being "bots".
Did he ever make any degrading attacks on people like the above, to
deserve receiving such? This reminds me of my elementary school, where
people who made social mistakes were sometimes never allowed to recover
but were dumped on for years.

I get this impression as well: that "seniority" gives some kind of
right to dump on anyone, and that we should all find this a source of
amusement. It seems more like American high school, Hollywood style,
if you ask me.

Paul
 

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