Semantics

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Luigi Donatello Asero, Aug 12, 2006.

  1. On the page https://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/it/svezia.html
    there is a part where I mention "Gullmarnfjörden" as the only real fjord in
    Sweden.
    As "Gullmarnfjörden" is in the region Västra Götaland, I thought I could
    use <h6>
    for the following heading
    "Gullmarn, l´unico vero fiordo in Svezia",
    given that I had used <h3> for the administrative decentralization
    and <h4> for the "län" which in fact belong to the local administration and
    <h5> for each of these "län" or regions
    (Västra Götaland, Halland being two of these).
    So, in the end I used <h6> for
    "Gullmarn, l´unico vero fiordo in Svezia",
    because Gullmarnfjorden is in Västra Götaland.
    However, the font-size of <h6> is very little and perhaps difficult to read.
    A possible option would be to talk about Gullmarnfjorden on the page which
    deals with Västra Götaland but as this is the only fjörd in Sweden, I
    thought that it would suit to the page about Sweden as well.
    Any suggestions?

    --
    Luigi Donatello Asero
    https://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/
    ä½ å«ä»€ä¹ˆ ?
     
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Aug 12, 2006
    #1
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  2. Luigi Donatello Asero

    dorayme Guest

    In article <KabDg.12657$>,
    "Luigi Donatello Asero" <> wrote:

    > However, the font-size of <h6> is very little and perhaps difficult to read.


    Space the sizes by making h6 readable and h1 whatever is
    reasonable. Readability and reasonableness are transitive
    qualities in this context. In other words Mr. Luigi, they then
    all become readable and reasonable.

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Aug 12, 2006
    #2
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  3. "dorayme" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:...
    > In article <KabDg.12657$>,
    > "Luigi Donatello Asero" <> wrote:
    >
    > > However, the font-size of <h6> is very little and perhaps difficult to

    read.
    >
    > Space the sizes by making h6 readable and h1 whatever is
    > reasonable. Readability and reasonableness are transitive
    > qualities in this context. In other words Mr. Luigi, they then
    > all become readable and reasonable.
    >
    > --
    > dorayme


    Are you talking about relative or absolute sizes?


    --
    Luigi Donatello Asero
    https://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/
    ä½ å«ä»€ä¹ˆ ?
     
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Aug 12, 2006
    #3
  4. Luigi Donatello Asero

    dorayme Guest

    In article <qDbDg.12658$>,
    "Luigi Donatello Asero" <> wrote:

    >
    > "dorayme" <> skrev i meddelandet
    > news:...
    > > In article <KabDg.12657$>,
    > > "Luigi Donatello Asero" <> wrote:
    > >
    > > > However, the font-size of <h6> is very little and perhaps difficult to

    > read.
    > >
    > > Space the sizes by making h6 readable and h1 whatever is
    > > reasonable. Readability and reasonableness are transitive
    > > qualities in this context. In other words Mr. Luigi, they then
    > > all become readable and reasonable.
    > >
    > > --
    > > dorayme

    >
    > Are you talking about relative or absolute sizes?


    What does it matter? What do you understand by what I say that
    this distinction should matter to you?

    (Plus, you have been around here long enough to know to forget
    talking or thinking about absolute sizes except to bash people up
    or (like old Korpela) to try to trip poor martians up)

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Aug 12, 2006
    #4
  5. "dorayme" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:...
    > In article <qDbDg.12658$>,
    > "Luigi Donatello Asero" <> wrote:


    [cut]

    > > Are you talking about relative or absolute sizes?

    >
    > What does it matter? What do you understand by what I say that
    > this distinction should matter to you?


    Does that play any role in this context,
    Miss dorayme?


    --
    Luigi Donatello Asero
    https://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/
    ä½ å«ä»€ä¹ˆ ?
     
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Aug 12, 2006
    #5
  6. Luigi Donatello Asero

    dorayme Guest

    In article <Y_bDg.12659$>,
    "Luigi Donatello Asero" <> wrote:

    > "dorayme" <> skrev i meddelandet
    > news:...
    > > In article <qDbDg.12658$>,
    > > "Luigi Donatello Asero" <> wrote:

    >
    > [cut]
    >
    > > > Are you talking about relative or absolute sizes?

    > >
    > > What does it matter? What do you understand by what I say that
    > > this distinction should matter to you?

    >
    > Does that play any role in this context,
    > Miss dorayme?


    You are a strange person Luigi, I said about as clear as could be
    that it made no difference but you still keep on asking? If you
    understood what I said to you in one context, you can adapt the
    idea to the other context. Yeah.... now ask me about if i have
    been to Tasmania... you might as well... Mr....

    (I am in a very irritable mood because I have a fair sized print
    layout job on and I backed up a new folder of the work with an
    old one, taking me back a day at least. From now on, I duplicate
    every crucial folder and operate only on these when I back up to
    different disks. Tip, when backing up from one disk to another,
    make sure which way is which. So stop irritating me with the
    unbridled exercise of your freedom Mr. Luigi. You need to put
    your thinking cap on. Ah... that's better... I feel strangely
    better and calmer now... Don't go anywhere Luigi, you serve a
    crucial purpose)

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Aug 12, 2006
    #6
  7. Luigi Donatello Asero wrote:
    > On the page https://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/it/svezia.html
    > there is a part where I mention "Gullmarnfjörden" as the only real fjord in
    > Sweden.
    > As "Gullmarnfjörden" is in the region Västra Götaland, I thought I could
    > use <h6>
    > for the following heading
    > "Gullmarn, l´unico vero fiordo in Svezia",
    > given that I had used <h3> for the administrative decentralization
    > and <h4> for the "län" which in fact belong to the local administration and
    > <h5> for each of these "län" or regions
    > (Västra Götaland, Halland being two of these).
    > So, in the end I used <h6> for
    > "Gullmarn, l´unico vero fiordo in Svezia",
    > because Gullmarnfjorden is in Västra Götaland.
    > However, the font-size of <h6> is very little and perhaps difficult to read.


    So adjust your browser to increase the text size.
     
    Harlan Messinger, Aug 12, 2006
    #7
  8. Harlan Messinger <> scripsit:

    > Luigi Donatello Asero wrote:

    - -
    >> However, the font-size of <h6> is very little and perhaps difficult
    >> to read.

    >
    > So adjust your browser to increase the text size.


    Although I normally ignore both Luigi Asero's messages and responses to
    them, this seems to be a case where a correction is needed. It is not
    constructive to suggest that an author increases his browser's font size to
    make <h6> elements large enough, when the _problem_ is that <h6> elements'
    font size is smaller than the basic font size, by browser defaults.

    Whether Luigi Asero, or someone else, really _needs_ heading levels down to
    the 6th level is a different question. It's a rare situation, but there
    _are_ cases where you need them, typically in fairly large documents (which
    should perhaps also exist as split-up versions where the problem does not
    arise, but I digress).

    If you use <h6>, the sensible thing is - as "dorayme" suggested, if I read
    his or her somewhat implicit message correctly - to set
    h6 { font-size: 100%; }
    together with font-size settings for other heading levels in a manner that
    matches this setting. Normally the sizes should grow at least by 10% when
    going to a higher level, but perhaps you can play by using other features
    too, e.g. setting font-weight: normal for h6 and font-weight: bold for h5,
    in which case both h5 and h6 could have font-size: 100% since the bolding
    makes a difference.

    Authors should usually consider setting top and bottom margins for heading
    elements, since the common defaults are typographically wrong: they have
    equal margin above and below, but the top margin should be larger than the
    bottom margin. You need to pay attention to the fact that the first element
    after a heading (typically <p>) may have a top margin too (<p> has, by
    common defaults), so it may need some styling to make the net margins OK.

    When setting the margins, you should normally use the em unit, and this
    means you should try to remember that em means the font size of the element
    itself. Thus, if you set
    h1 { font-size: 200%; margin: 1em 0 2em 0; }
    you would make the margins rather huge, since here 1em means the font size
    of the <h1> element, i.e. twice the font size of copy text.

    --
    Jukka K. Korpela ("Yucca")
    http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
     
    Jukka K. Korpela, Aug 12, 2006
    #8
  9. Luigi Donatello Asero

    mbstevens Guest

    On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:47:13 +0300, Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
    > Normally the sizes should grow at least by 10% when
    > going to a higher level, but perhaps you can play by using other features
    > too, e.g. setting font-weight...


    I occasionally like the look of a header that has 100% size and normal
    weight, but wide letter spacing.
     
    mbstevens, Aug 12, 2006
    #9
  10. "dorayme" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:...
    > In article <Y_bDg.12659$>,
    > "Luigi Donatello Asero" <> wrote:
    >
    > > "dorayme" <> skrev i meddelandet
    > > news:...
    > > > In article <qDbDg.12658$>,
    > > > "Luigi Donatello Asero" <> wrote:

    > >
    > > [cut]
    > >
    > > > > Are you talking about relative or absolute sizes?
    > > >
    > > > What does it matter? What do you understand by what I say that
    > > > this distinction should matter to you?

    > >
    > > Does that play any role in this context,
    > > Miss dorayme?

    >
    > You are a strange person Luigi, I said about as clear as could be
    > that it made no difference but you still keep on asking? If you
    > understood what I said to you in one context, you can adapt the
    > idea to the other context. Yeah.... now ask me about if i have
    > been to Tasmania... you might as well... Mr....


    Yes, because, as far as I remember, there was someone trying to call me
    from Tasmania.....
    so, either it was you in which case, you should have known about it or it
    was not....
    Also, because I have met people who seem to have written or read something
    on Usenet
    (perhaps in this NG??)


    > (I am in a very irritable mood because I have a fair sized print
    > layout job on and I backed up a new folder of the work with an
    > old one, taking me back a day at least.





    From now on, I duplicate
    > every crucial folder and operate only on these when I back up to
    > different disks. Tip, when backing up from one disk to another,
    > make sure which way is which. So stop irritating me with the
    > unbridled exercise of your freedom Mr. Luigi. You need to put
    > your thinking cap on. Ah... that's better... I feel strangely
    > better and calmer now... Don't go anywhere Luigi, you serve a
    > crucial purpose)


    I like freedom. If you do not, it is your choice.



    --
    Luigi Donatello Asero
    https://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/
    ä½ å«ä»€ä¹ˆ ?
     
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Aug 12, 2006
    #10
  11. Luigi Donatello Asero

    dorayme Guest

    In article <Z4kDg.893$>,
    "Jukka K. Korpela" <> wrote:

    > If you use <h6>, the sensible thing is - as "dorayme" suggested, if I read
    > his or her somewhat implicit message correctly - to set
    > h6 { font-size: 100%; }
    > together with font-size settings for other heading levels in a manner that
    > matches this setting. Normally the sizes should grow at least by 10% when
    > going to a higher level, but perhaps you can play by using other features
    > too, e.g. setting font-weight: normal for h6 and font-weight: bold for h5,
    > in which case both h5 and h6 could have font-size: 100% since the bolding
    > makes a difference.


    I had in mind to first ensure that main body text is 1em. Then
    set the smallest heading to be readable in relation to this.
    Rarely lower than .8? You then step up more or less evenly to h1.
    h5 would be just above (or not smaller than body text, its
    boldness might be enough) and so on. But this is not the only way
    to go, your suggestion is another. I prefer to follow the beacon
    of main body text as 1em. It feels right and proud. But it all
    depends on what exactly is being done.

    (btw, you are welcome to refer to me as "it". I will not be
    offended. In fact, it will feel right, given my origins... Plus,
    I think you should be taking greater responsibility for our
    Luigi. You cannot remain aloof forever. There is work at the
    coalface. And that is where Luigi is, conducting a world wide
    business requiring security and an almost infinite number of
    human languages)

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Aug 13, 2006
    #11
  12. Luigi Donatello Asero

    dorayme Guest

    In article <iZkDg.12720$>,
    "Luigi Donatello Asero" <> wrote:

    > I like freedom. If you do not, it is your choice.


    I cannot accept this. You choose for me.

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Aug 13, 2006
    #12
  13. Luigi Donatello Asero

    dorayme Guest

    In article
    <>,
    dorayme <> wrote:

    > In article <Z4kDg.893$>,
    > "Jukka K. Korpela" <> wrote:
    >
    > > If you use <h6>, the sensible thing is - as "dorayme" suggested, if I read
    > > his or her somewhat implicit message correctly - to set
    > > h6 { font-size: 100%; }
    > > together with font-size settings for other heading levels in a manner that
    > > matches this setting. Normally the sizes should grow at least by 10% when
    > > going to a higher level, but perhaps you can play by using other features
    > > too, e.g. setting font-weight: normal for h6 and font-weight: bold for h5,
    > > in which case both h5 and h6 could have font-size: 100% since the bolding
    > > makes a difference.

    >
    > I had in mind to first ensure that main body text is 1em. Then
    > set the smallest heading to be readable in relation to this.
    > Rarely lower than .8? You then step up more or less evenly to h1.
    > h5 would be just above (or not smaller than body text, its
    > boldness might be enough) and so on. But this is not the only way
    > to go, your suggestion is another. I prefer to follow the beacon
    > of main body text as 1em.


    Just a minute, a correction...

    I think I had in mind that the body text under h6 would not be
    smaller than h6. But, come to think of it, this might be rather
    odd! It would still be smaller than 1em and so different to the
    rest of the body text under the other headings. I vaguely
    imagined this to be acceptable in the unusual situation of a need
    for h6.

    So perhaps your suggestion is the more straightforward. Your idea
    has the consequence that body text has to be not smaller than h6.
    Which does not mean it has to be smaller (and so go against the
    generally good idea of keeping main body text at 1em). So, yes, I
    was not thinking right through this - and probably have got more
    thinking to go on it.

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Aug 13, 2006
    #13
  14. "dorayme" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:...
    > In article <Z4kDg.893$>,
    > "Jukka K. Korpela" <> wrote:


    > (btw, you are welcome to refer to me as "it". I will not be
    > offended. In fact, it will feel right, given my origins...


    Why do you want him to use "it"?
    Are you a thing (for example a robot, a computer) or an animal
    (although you might use he or she for pets might you not?).
    Or are you Freud´s "es"?


    --
    Luigi Donatello Asero
    https://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/
    ä½ å«ä»€ä¹ˆ ?
     
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Aug 13, 2006
    #14
  15. dorayme <> scripsit:

    > I think I had in mind that the body text under h6 would not be
    > smaller than h6. But, come to think of it, this might be rather
    > odd! It would still be smaller than 1em and so different to the
    > rest of the body text under the other headings. I vaguely
    > imagined this to be acceptable in the unusual situation of a need
    > for h6.


    This seems a bit confused, and we are perhaps discussing different design
    approaches in a mixed manner.

    My suggestion of setting the font size of h6 to 100% was simply aimed at
    dealing with the problem that the common browser default is smaller and
    makes the h6 text too small. Whether the exact percentage you use is 100% or
    110% or 90% is much less important than doing _something_ with the problem
    that default rendering makes h6 elements appear in about 63% of the size of
    copy text (typically corresponding to <small><small>...</small></small> or
    <font size="1">...</font>). The default rendering makes h6 look less
    important than copy text and almost or completely unreadable. (If a use can
    read text in 63% size, he has very good eyesight and very good browsing
    conditions _or_ he has chosen too big a basic font size for his browser.)
    The default bolding of headings might be seen as alleviating the problem of
    looking less important, but it adds to the second problem: small-size text,
    especially in a serif font, is harder to read when bolded.

    I did not suggest setting the body text (copy text) size but only heading
    sizes, as percentages of body text size. Starting from 100% for <h6> looks
    natural, since headings should look at least as important as body text, and
    if we have 6 levels of headings, we get to rather huge font size for
    highest-level headings if we make lowest-level headings larger than copy
    text.

    Using h6 { font-size: 90% } might be reasonable if you use a serif font for
    headings and a sans serif font for copy text, since the difference between
    fonts probably still makes the h6 text look somewhat larger than copy text.

    --
    Jukka K. Korpela ("Yucca")
    http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
     
    Jukka K. Korpela, Aug 13, 2006
    #15
  16. Luigi Donatello Asero

    dorayme Guest

    In article <9LzDg.1313$>,
    "Jukka K. Korpela" <> wrote:

    > I did not suggest setting the body text (copy text) size but only heading
    > sizes, as percentages of body text size. Starting from 100% for <h6> looks
    > natural, since headings should look at least as important as body text, and
    > if we have 6 levels of headings, we get to rather huge font size for
    > highest-level headings if we make lowest-level headings larger than copy
    > text.


    This seems to me a good natural approach. Having so many headings
    will entail keeping the font-size differences between them all
    smaller than is usual to ensure the h1 does not become absurdly
    big. The crucial thing for Luigi to note, imo, is that the h6
    must be readable and anything less than 100% for the h6 in all
    the circumstances here is fraught with difficulties. But he will
    not note this, or we will never know because his mind is fixed on
    Tasmania, the Chinese language, security and freedom of
    expression.

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Aug 13, 2006
    #16
  17. "dorayme" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:...
    > In article <iZkDg.12720$>,
    > "Luigi Donatello Asero" <> wrote:
    >
    > > I like freedom. If you do not, it is your choice.

    >
    > I cannot accept this. You choose for me.



    ????

    --
    Luigi Donatello Asero
    https://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/it/svezia.html
    ä½ å«ä»€ä¹ˆ ?
     
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Aug 14, 2006
    #17
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