A Mascot...

[Rubén Medellín]

I don't know much about marketing (which has nothing to do with
advertising), but IMHO the ruby image itself represents very well the
language and the community. Among programmers, when we see a ruby we
immediately identify it.

I think Ruby community doesn't need a mascot FOR ITSELF. A mascot
should represent whatever it represents outside of the organisation,
and should identify people in. A penguin can represent a lot of
things, but only Tux represents Linux, and is easily identifiable by
lots of people, even if they are not part of the Linux community.

I'm in favor of a Ruby mascot. Community will then adopt it or discard
it on the run, nothing is broken by trying. The worst that can happen
is that nobody uses it and it <<gracefully degrades>>.

Oh, and no snails. I don't quite like the idea of the girl either, but
that's just me. Actually I think _why's foxes are a good candidate for
a mascot (they have the bonus of being already recognized by at least
many people among the community)

 

[Phlip]

If Ruby needed a mascot it would have one by now. This attempting to
force it to have one is a silly waste of time.

Okay, point the camera at the Ruby gem, and slowly push in, with atmospheric
music. Start a high-hat tickle, going Dit-Daah-Dit, Dit-Daah-Dit. Bring up some
eerie violins.

Just as the alto saxophone starts, deep within the glowing depths of the Ruby
gem, we see a springing feline silhouette, with a long cigarette holder. It's:

----> The Pink Panther! <----

 

[James Britt]

Regardless of whether or not I agree with that... you have a self-selection
problem.
The people who have formed the ruby community did so without the aid of a
mascot.

Well, there is no *one* Ruby community; there are many. And some
(possibly large) number of Rubyists have abandoned ruby-talk, so the
thread here is hardly indicative of what Rubyists as a whole think of a
mascot. (BTW, this thread is a good example of why people are leaving
this mailing list. Sad to say.) But I am unaware of any Ruby
community that has a mascot, and things seems to be thriving.

So it's easy to see how the community as it exists now is one that
doesn't see the need for some avatar to represent the language - the
language is the language, and they love it for the reasons that they love
it, and that's that.
Attempting to force a community to adopt anything will do nothing but spin
tires. Especially if that community is spontaneous and decentralized, like
the ruby community is.

I imagine that if some Ruby community really wants their own mascot they
will just go adopt one. Some others will giggle.

If a mascot ever does get adopted, I'd be willing to bet it'd be more of a
viral adoption than as part of a "let's sit around and pitch ideas for a
mascot" email thread.

Exactly. Doing beats asking. But be careful what you wish for.



--
James Britt

www.happycamperstudios.com - Wicked Cool Coding
www.jamesbritt.com - Playing with Better Toys
www.ruby-doc.org - Ruby Help & Documentation
www.rubystuff.com - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff

 

[Tommy Morgan]

[Note: parts of this message were removed to make it a legal post.]

Well, there is no *one* Ruby community; there are many. And some (possibly
large) number of Rubyists have abandoned ruby-talk, so the thread here is
hardly indicative of what Rubyists as a whole think of a mascot. (BTW,
this thread is a good example of why people are leaving this mailing list.
Sad to say.) But I am unaware of any Ruby community that has a mascot,
and things seems to be thriving.

True, that's what I meant. Since no community (either the community at
large, or a sub-community) seems to have a mascot, it's a safe assumption
that a mascot isn't a huge draw for the people who are already using the
language.

So it's easy to see how the community as it exists now is one that
I imagine that if some Ruby community really wants their own mascot they
will just go adopt one. Some others will giggle.

True, but the point of this thread seems to be "let's make an official
mascot." I don't think that's something that can really be done
declaratively (unless Matz feels like it, but I get the impression that he
has other things he'd rather be doing at the moment ).

If a mascot ever does get adopted, I'd be willing to bet it'd be more of a

Exactly. Doing beats asking. But be careful what you wish for.

Oh, I'm not wishing, trust me

 

[Michal Suchanek]
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 

[Todd Benson]

(SNIP)

If Ruby needed a mascot it would have one by now. This attempting to
force it to have one is a silly waste of time.

(back to the code - which is what matters)

You obviously haven't studied marketing/branding. To hope that the
ability of a program/OS/library stands on its own is only partly true.
Exposure is best for everyone in the long run, and the picture of a
"ruby" cut gem doesn't cut it. It shines but is ultimately inanimate.

If you only want to attract intellectuals, then by all means, omit any
kind of mascot/branding. I'm fine with that.

I can foresee a problem with a cute female mascot, simply from other
programming camps (hey, look!
"picture_of_ruby-chan_cheerleader_upskirt.png") proliferated on python
lists to point out naivety and an exposure type nature. Now, you
could apply this ploy with pretty much anything, but the whole cutesy
girl thing makes that chance easy (pun intended?)

I don't want to go into other things of what a python could do with
ruby-chan exemplified in manga comics to make the Ruby language seem
inferior.

I did like the idea of the raccoon though. But, then you could
scandalously destroy that one, too, with a simple cartoon of a raccoon
reaching for a shiny ruby in a hand trap. Apparently, the real life
raccoon has a hard time letting go of something. Fist gets big, won't
let go, and barbs in the trap pointing into the trap hole depths
capture the critter, because among it's kind, stubbornness abounds.
Analogy: programming freedom sought, but lost in the end via a simple
trap. You can see that argument coming from a mile away.

I don't like the sound of that now that I think about it.

Meerkats, anyone? j/k

Todd

 

[David Masover]

Starbucks isn't my role model as a Rubyist (or in any other respect).

Starbucks is massively popular, despite being as expensive as they are.

They also have a habit of building insane amounts of brand loyalty -- an
oft-cited example (that I still can't verify) is the guy who went on a coffee
run for his office, and dropped the tray (spilling all the coffee) on his way
back.

So, the girl at the counter noticed him ordering the exact same thing, again,
and asked why -- found out he'd dropped the tray -- and gave him the order
free.

I'd say that's something to respect -- either in the actual
brand-loyalty-building genius, or the sheer viral marketing genius if the
story isn't real.

 

[David Masover]

How many of you male
programmers would like a large, muscular, naked man as our Ruby logo?

I think that would be awesome, but I'm not sure you'll all agree...

I'd have to see it. Some large, muscular, naked men are prettier than
others...

Did I say that out loud?

 

[David Masover]

=20
=20
Well FWIW, I just showed Ruby to a female coworker, and she thought that:
1) She was cute and
2) The nude version showed that she was both flexible, and quite
appropriate for Ruby the language, agile!

I think it's interesting what the reaction is...

The most valid response, so far, has been "Ruby doesn't need a mascot!" And=
to=20
those people, I would say, "Why would you care if it does?" It's been a lon=
g=20
time since I've thought about penguins, and I use Linux every day.

What seems very strange is that more people seem to be saying "Oh no, what =
if=20
someone was offended by it?" than "I, personally, am offended."

Are we that bad that all it takes is the _possibility_ of puritanical outra=
ge=20
to make us back down?

 

[Gregory Brown]

So, the girl at the counter noticed him ordering the exact same thing, again,
and asked why -- found out he'd dropped the tray -- and gave him the order
free.

I'd say that's something to respect -- either in the actual
brand-loyalty-building genius, or the sheer viral marketing genius if the
story isn't real.

Very sweet story, but:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starbucks#Criticism_and_controversy

 

[Wilson Bilkovich]

I don't have to "back down" from putting the image on my Ruby-related
sites because it would never occur to me to do it in the first place.

Please -- everyone, just put whatever images you want on your
websites, and have done with it. If Matz wants there to be a Ruby
mascot I'm sure he'll let us know. Meanwhile please channel some of
this energy into real issues, like why we as a community have not
blazed the new trail of inclusiveness across sexual boundaries that it
once seemed we might. And maybe we will yet. That, unlike debate as to
whether Ruby should be represented by a girl or a chunk of bacon, is
the kind of thing that might really lead somewhere.

Well said. We should just link to this message when this topic arises
yet again, next year.

--Wilson.

 

[David Masover]

OK, I'll make it easier for you. I, personally, am offended by the
suggestion that a cute little (naked or otherwise) girl named Ruby be
the Ruby "mascot."

You're one person... but I was generalizing.

However...

Meanwhile please channel some of
this energy into real issues, like why we as a community have not
blazed the new trail of inclusiveness across sexual boundaries that it
once seemed we might.

Ok, I'm curious -- how many females have seen this image? How many have
actually been offended by it? (I'm assuming "David" is male.)

I think we do more harm to that "inclusiveness" by focusing on this issue at
all. But I'm not really qualified to debate that. (Are you?)

But if you'd rather talk about inclusiveness... Is Ruby particularly
under-represented, among programming languages? We're talking about a very
small niche of an already male-dominated field.



I can see why you're tired of this issue. I'll stop.

 

[MRH]

What you find silly might now be silly to another, else there wouldn't
have been such a long discussion about a topic which was run through
before.

Most posts are not in favor of a mascot from what I have read of this
thread. This is probably why there isn't one to begin with - and I
hope it stays that way.

A logo and a mascot are a few of the essential items to forming a
community,

Funny, that an essential item has been missing all these years yet
there are and have been many Ruby communities in existence at this
very moment.

it helps to rally the members better.

???

Last time I checked, Ruby was a programming language, and the members
of its community were bound by their use of the language, not by
whether or not a cartoon mascot existed.

I can think of no programmer worth his salt who would need a cartoon
mascot to "rally" with others in a "better" fashion.

This is about the code.

 

[Mayuresh Kathe]

Most posts are not in favor of a mascot from what I have read of this
thread. This is probably why there isn't one to begin with - and I
hope it stays that way.



Funny, that an essential item has been missing all these years yet
there are and have been many Ruby communities in existence at this
very moment.


???

Last time I checked, Ruby was a programming language, and the members
of its community were bound by their use of the language, not by
whether or not a cartoon mascot existed.

Going by your logic, even the logo is irrelevant, but it was an effort
supported by Matz himself.

I can think of no programmer worth his salt who would need a cartoon
mascot to "rally" with others in a "better" fashion.

Then why does every "major" programming effort have a mascot/logo?
FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, Linux, Darwin, Minix3, Python, Apache, ...

Its good to be a programmer, but its important to be a programmer having taste.

~Mayuresh

 

[David A. Black]

Hi --

But if you'd rather talk about inclusiveness... Is Ruby particularly
under-represented, among programming languages? We're talking about a very
small niche of an already male-dominated field.

It's not that Ruby is particularly male-dominated; it's that it isn't
more equitable and integrated, as to sex, than other technical
communities. It seemed to me, and others I think, at one point that
the possibility existed of Ruby distinguishing itself through its
inclusiveness. The hope was that Ruby could break the cycle. We have
some extremely accomplished women in our midst, but I think they'd
agree that, so far at least, we haven't broken the mold of the more or
less typical technical community.

My attitude toward Ruby has always been that our community has the
power to do things right -- not to look to precedents, and not to use
less-than-exemplary exemplars as a justification for what we do, but
to do things right. In some respects I think we've done it. In the
matter of breaking out of the boys'-club paradigm to any really
impressive degree, we haven't.


David

 

[Wilson Bilkovich]

Going by your logic, even the logo is irrelevant, but it was an effort
supported by Matz himself.

The logo is irrelevant. I can't recall ever having seen it on
anything, other than the ruby-lang.org website. It has also been
widely criticized in this community for not scaling well and not
looking good in greyscale.

Logos, unlike mascots, at least help anchor a webpage design.

 

[_why]

Actually, didn't _why create this duck to be a ruby mascot?
http://redhanded.hobix.com/images/redhanded-duck.gif

http://whytheluckystiff.net/clog/ruby/theOnlyCopyrightlessDuckInRecentHistory.html

It is only a duck used to evade copyright infringement. A personal
mascot, spawned by a thread long ago called "duck images" here on
ruby-talk. There used to have a drb server that would cough up ASCII
duck animations.

I know matz was originally amenable to the ruby-crowned kinglet.
http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/1469

_why

 

[Mikael Høilund]

=

http://whytheluckystiff.net/clog/ruby/theOnlyCopyrightlessDuckInRecentHist=
ory.html


I now propose that every item here now achieve official Mascot status:
http://www.thispeanutlookslikeaduck.com/

--=20
Mikael H=F8ilund
http://hoilund.org/

 

[MRH]

Going by your logic, even the logo is irrelevant, but it was an effort
supported by Matz himself.

Nice try on your part, yet laughable. You stated "essential", and I
countered by implying that it was not essential, and now you twist
that around to "irrelevant" (a cheap strawman wearing a sign that says
"your logic"), and throw in Matz's name.

Then why does every "major" programming effort have a mascot/logo?
FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, Linux, Darwin, Minix3, Python, Apache, ...

Each community wanted one, obviously.

Its good to be a programmer, but its important to be a programmer having
taste.

Anyone worthy of being referred to as a programmer knows that taste is
subjective, this is only obvious . . . yet the concept is obviously
alien to you.

How old are you again?

 

[MRH]

Hey _why,

You rock man.

MRH

http://whytheluckystiff.net/clog/ruby/theOnlyCopyrightlessDuckInRecen...

It is only a duck used to evade copyright infringement. A personal
mascot, spawned by a thread long ago called "duck images" here on
ruby-talk. There used to have a drb server that would cough up ASCII
duck animations.

I know matz was originally amenable to the ruby-crowned kinglet.http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/1469

_why