Does the Python community really follow the philospy of "CommunityMatters?"


R

r

I been around the list for a while and rubbed sholders with some
pythonistas(some you would not beleieve if i told you) and i just
don't see a community spirit here.

Where are the community projects supporting Python? -- besides the
core devlopment. Seem s that nobody is interested unless their pay-pal
account is involved. I find this all quite disappointing.

Also if anyone dares to mention that Python is a great language or
better in this reguard or that, they get jumped and beat to death by
their "so-called" brothers.

AKAIK there is a group for every languge out there. C, Perl, Java,
Ruby, etc, etc. This is comp.lang.python, if you don't like it, hang
out in "comp.lang.whatever". Don't tell me or anybody "Comparing
Python -> Perl is not allowed here!".
 
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A

alex23

I been around the list for a while and rubbed sholders with some
pythonistas(some you would not beleieve if i told you) and i just
don't see a community spirit here.

Seriously, how -old- are you? Twelve? Thirteen?
 
R

r

Seriously, how -old- are you? Twelve? Thirteen?

Ah, my good friend alex23.
Somehow -- when i was writing this post -- i knew you would drop in
and i swear i do not have any ESP abilities -- somehow i just knew.

While your here why don't we take a walk down memory lane. Let's go
back to our first encounter -- Yes, that crazy thread(i won't utter
the title here). Seems i was promoting the inclusion of the Python
language in a revolutionary and promising application and you were
very upset about it. Why, i really don't know because you never told
me. The only thing i can remember is you wishing me dead -- if i
recall your wish was to cut off oxygen supply to my brain.

I can't help but wonder of the devious thoughts that toil away in your
demented little mind right now. Of what demise shall i suffer this
time alex23. But please alex, at least -try- to be a little more
creative, if i am to meet my end, i would hate for it to be some worn-
out old cliche'
 
R

r

Also if anyone dares to mention that Python is a great language or
better in this reguard or that, they get jumped and beat to death by
their "so-called" brothers.

This observation leads me to two scientific and common sense synopsis.
Either nobody here gives a rats pa'toote about Python, and/or they are
all just a bunch of gutless worms too afraid to stand up to the 10 or
so Perl/Ruby leeches who's infestation slowly drains the life-blood
out of the Python Community, keeping it too weak to fight back.
<dospesos>
 
J

James Mills

This observation leads me to two scientific and common sense synopsis.
Either nobody here gives a rats pa'toote about Python, and/or they are
all just a bunch of gutless worms too afraid to stand up to the 10 or
so Perl/Ruby leeches who's infestation slowly drains the life-blood
out of the Python Community, keeping it too weak to fight back.
<dospesos>

I for one am not e member of either the Perl or Ruby
fan club - and I don't think I will ever be :) However I"m not
going to go and start bagging those languages :) I prefer Python!

I think you'll find a 3rd scenario:

Python developers (those that develop Python)
and Python programmers (those that use Python)
just don't really care about politics, protest and
all the rubbish that goes on in this list :)

cheers
James
 
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R

r

I for one am not e member of either the Perl or Ruby
fan club - and I don't think I will ever be :) However I"m not
going to go and start bagging those languages :) I prefer Python!

I think you'll find a 3rd scenario:

Python developers (those that develop Python)
and Python programmers (those that use Python)
just don't really care about politics, protest and
all the rubbish that goes on in this list :)

cheers
James

I totally agree James. I not saying anybody should just go around
bashing this or that language, but i have seen many a ruffled feather
at the mere mention of Python's greatness. I could understand if
someone went over to the Perl group and started parroting off "Python
rules!, Perl sucks!". This should be condemned. But i have also seen
at this group very viscous attacks on people who just simply think
Python is a good language and want to tell their Python friends how
happy they are -- myself included.

People would call a happy user of Python a fanboy or a Python zealot.
This blows me away in the context of this group. check out this
thread:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp...en&lnk=gst&q=python+is+great#6195c98209dcc852

Here a happy python user shared his thoughts on the Python language.
He compared Python as "more readable" than Perl and by god he is right
about that, no sane person can honestly deny this fact. But like
always some angry responses and warnings followed that this person
should not criticize Perl, and veil threats were cast.

This is the madness i refer too.
 
J

John Machin

This blows me away in the context of this group. check out this
thread:http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/browse_thread/thread/...

Here a happy python user shared his thoughts on the Python language.
He compared Python as "more readable" than Perl and by god he is right
about that, no sane person can honestly deny this fact. But like
always some angry responses and warnings followed that this person
should not criticize Perl, and veil threats were cast.

This is the madness i refer too.

Clicking on that link leads me to a 14-message thread in which the
meat relates to Joe Stroud's problems with py2app, and there is only
one reference to perl:

Joe says: """No, I'm *using* py2app. I've been trying to use it for a
couple of weeks now, with the generous help of such people as Robin
Dunn, and I still don't have it quite working pro*perl*y.
"""

This doesn't appear to match the description. Perhaps the PSU has
subverted my comp)(*&^%$#@!
NO CARRIER
 
R

r

This doesn't appear to match the description. Perhaps the PSU has
subverted my comp)(*&^%$#@!
NO CARRIER

Oops -- Good catch John,
Even perfect people like myself make mistakes :). Here is the
aforementioned thread where a Python user was chastised for daring to
say Python has a clearer syntax than Perl thereby easing
maintainability: OH NO! *big hand wave*
http://groups.google.com/group/comp...hl=en&lnk=gst&q=perl+bashing#c7cfe1fa9634cc2a

These Perl mongers have no business doing their mongling here, go to
c.l.Perl!
 
M

MRAB

Stephen said:
On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 12:38 AM, r <[email protected]

On Jan 30, 2:26 am, John Machin <[email protected]
This doesn't appear to match the description. Perhaps the PSU has
subverted my comp)(*&^%$#@!
NO CARRIER

Oops -- Good catch John,
Even perfect people like myself make mistakes :). Here is the
aforementioned thread where a Python user was chastised for daring to
say Python has a clearer syntax than Perl thereby easing
maintainability: OH NO! *big hand wave*
http://groups.google.com/group/comp...hl=en&lnk=gst&q=perl+bashing#c7cfe1fa9634cc2a
<http://groups.google.com/group/comp...hl=en&lnk=gst&q=perl+bashing#c7cfe1fa9634cc2a>

These Perl mongers have no business doing their mongling here, go to
c.l.Perl!


He was not chastised, nor threatened as you previously said; he was
welcomed to Python in all of its awesomeness, and given a pointer about
community etiquette.
[snip]
I have tons of positive things to say about Python: lots of people in
The Community do. And we've all worked with other languages and have
reasons why we don't like those tools, and people are fine to share
those reasons. But that's a different thing then flinging bile and
ranting about how horrible Language-X is or how Perfect-For-All-Things
Python is.
[snip]
It's probably unpythonic to bash other languages. Python is so good that
there's no need. :)
 
I

Ivan Illarionov

r said:
Where are the community projects supporting Python? -- besides the
core devlopment. Seem s that nobody is interested unless their pay-pal
account is involved. I find this all quite disappointing.

Hi r,

Can you just type

import antigravity

and join us up there?

Hatred for Ruby and Perl seems to oppose natural Python forces,
that's why you can't see community spirit. Let your hatred go and
start
flying already.
 
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T

Terry Reedy

Personally, I work for a division in our company that has converted over
the last few years our entire software line from an old, Windows-only
mix of C and VCL-stuff, to a serious mid-sized product which recently
clocked in at about 165k lines of Python code (about 600k more in third
party libs!) that's fast, effective, flexible, multi-platform and highly
responsive to our customer's evolving needs. We actually did a complete
rewrite from the ground up -- a dangerous thing to do, but the legacy
product was so out of date that it had to be done... and I don't think
any other set of tools would have been able to let us do so as well, in
as short of a period of time, or as iteratively and in cooperation with
our customer base.

Thank you for sharing this. If it has not been already, could this be
shared as a Python success story on the site? (With proprietary detail
omitted as needed for approval, of course.)

tjr
 
S

Steve Holden

Ivan said:
Hi r,

Can you just type

import antigravity

and join us up there?

Hatred for Ruby and Perl seems to oppose natural Python forces,
that's why you can't see community spirit. Let your hatred go and
start
flying already.
Indeed. What r has not yet grasped is that to be in favor of one thing
you don't necessarily have to be against everything else. For example,
if it hadn't been for generous help from the Perl community (as
represented by http://www.yapc.org/) the first PyCon would never have
got off the ground. The competition between languages for the attention
of programmers isn't a zero-sum game.

I think there has perhaps been some slight decrease in the tolerance
level as expressed on this list over the last couple of years, but I
don't think it's (yet) anything to be concerned about. It's mostly a
matter of teaching by example. I'd like to think I usually set a good
example, but I've certainly been known to get crabby from time to time.

regards
Steve
 
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C

Craig Allen

I think what you have found is a remarkable characteristic of this
language. Somehow, perhaps something to do with guido or python
itself, python has a very strong non-dogmatic streak. It's a relief
really. If I were to pose a "is python or its community really xyz?"
I would wonder about the "one best way to do something". One of my
first posts here was about three different ways I had built
singletons. As a result of that I was given a better way, but no one
said any of the other ways were "non-pythonic", it was more, "if you
use option one, make sure of this, if you use option two, don't forget
that"...

As such, python programmers are not there for you to feel superior.
If you want a language for a feeling of community, then it hardly
matters what language you choose, and if you want a good language,
it's secondary if the community gives you that feeling (you should get
it from the language itself). And since there IS a python community
to go to for help, python has that covered without worrying about it
or making it a language feature. It may seems cold, instead of giving
warm fuzzies, people will help you with tangible problems, but we are
not starting a commune. "Uses a langague with sense of community that
advocates for their language over others" is never in a spec.


-craig
 

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