[EVALUATION] - E02 - Support for MinGW Open Source Compiler

[Ilias Lazaridis]

There is a OS-tool-chain supported on windows, cygwin.

this depends on cygwin.dll, which is GPL licensed

[or am I wrong?]

It is GPL licensed with an amendment which prevents the GPL spreading to
other open source software with which it is linked.

"In accordance with section 10 of the GPL, Red Hat, Inc. permits programs
whose sources are distributed under a license that complies with the Open
Source definition to be linked with libcygwin.a without libcygwin.a itself
causing the resulting program to be covered by the GNU GPL."

If I understand this right, I cannot produce commercial software with
the cygwin toolset.

..

 

[Ilias Lazaridis]

[Sorry, I'm to tired to read more posts today. I'll try to answer to
each message adressed to me tomorrow. Thank you for your time.]

-

I find this thread facinating.

I don't know wich of the posters in this thread belong to the python team.

Nearly no one community member gives simply some answers to this very
simple questions.

Please summarize all the efforts the community has taken to write within
this thread.

This sum of efforts should be enouth to setup a basic official MinGW
compilation.

I have the strange feeling, that some people within the community and
the team are not intrested in this.

-

copied from another answer:

"The Python Foundation could create an official sub-project to create an
automated build target based on the MinGW toolchain. I am sure that many
community members would be more than happy to contribute."

-

Let's see:

The process would be:

a) A Python Foundation official states: "of course we accept diversity
and of course we are intrested that our source-code-base compiles
directly with MinGW (and other compilers)".

b) the pyMinGW developer states: "I am intrested that my patches are
included within the main python source code base" [of course this
contribution would deserve to be mentioned somewhere]

c) One part of the Python Community states: "look those loosers, like to
use MinGW toolkit - pah! I'll continue to use my super-optimizing, xx%
faster results, less hassle Microsoft-Compiler"

d) One part of the Python Community states: "I'm very happy that my
toolset of choice gets official support, to which I can contribute as a
community member"

e) there is no point e. People start simply to cooperate, thus python's
evolution is ensured.

-

I try to sleep after this communicational desaster here.

Good night to all.

..

 

[Stephen Kellett]

I think the expression you are looking for is ROFL!

Yes, but with that I could've been standing up before ending up on
the floor. I wrote it as I felt it!. Its a really good demonstration as
to the depth of the research performed by Illias.

I'm waiting for the "Who's Matz?" comment in comp.lang.ruby....

Stephen

 

[Robert Kern]

There is a OS-tool-chain supported on windows, cygwin.


this depends on cygwin.dll, which is GPL licensed

[or am I wrong?]

It is GPL licensed with an amendment which prevents the GPL spreading
to other open source software with which it is linked.

"In accordance with section 10 of the GPL, Red Hat, Inc. permits
programs whose sources are distributed under a license that complies
with the Open Source definition to be linked with libcygwin.a without
libcygwin.a itself causing the resulting program to be covered by the
GNU GPL."

If I understand this right, I cannot produce commercial software with
the cygwin toolset.

Wait, you demand a completely open source toolchain on a proprietary
operating system to develop proprietary software?

The mind *boggles*.

--
Robert Kern
(e-mail address removed)

"In the fields of hell where the grass grows high
Are the graves of dreams allowed to die."
-- Richard Harter

 

[Robert Kern]

Robert Kern wrote:
[snip]

The answer to most of your questions is, "Because no one has yet
volunteered their time and effort to get the job done."


this answer do not fit in most questions.

please review them again.

Against my better judgement, I have.

It certainly fits a, b, and c. It also fits d if you place an implicit
"Yes, " in front of the answer. 4/6. I stick with my assessment.

see below.

[...]

Questions and suggestions are don't count for much in this community.
Code and well-written patches do.

Stop wasting time on c.l.py and get to work! If you can't do that,
then this is not the community you are looking for.

Please speak for yourself.

I think that my participation in the community for the past six years
and a rational examination of the responses you have received so far
qualify me, just a little bit, to conclude that this community does not
tolerate your kind of behaviour well.

If you want one that does so tolerate your behaviour, you need to keep
looking.

Who's "Guido"?

The guy who wrote Python originally and is still the head developer.

even if:

Volunteerism does not exclude Professionalism.

Volunteerism does not, indeed, exclude professionalism. However, being
professional does not entail satisfying the desires of everyone who
asks. Being professional does not mean that volunteerism is not the
driving force of this community.

If this does not appeal to you, then this is not the community that you
are looking for.

I'm already doing this.

Okay, let me clarify: I am asking you to volunteer your time with
something that is going to be productive. Continuing here on c.l.py as
you have been will not be productive. I've seen dozens of people who act
like you do come in to this newsgroup and leave again unsatisfied.

Feel free to ignore the threads.

I would have been more than happy to until my web page was used. Now I
feel some obligation to correct some things.

And please speak for yourself.

I am speaking as a member of this community, not necessarily for this
community. But I do have some experience with how this community behaves
and how it responds to people who behave like you do. I know that they
do not mix well at all.

If you want a community that does tolerate this behaviour, you need to
keep looking.

I get the help that I want.

You could do it much more efficiently. And in a way that does not
generate the obvious ill-will that you have generated. This thread
*could* have been completely technical and addressed your real concerns
quite quickly. However, you have acted in a way that *invites* the
accusation of trolling, that immediately disinclines people to help you,
that ruins your credibility here.

You *can* act differently, and we *will* respond better.

If you don't want to act differently, then your interaction with this
community will continue to be counterproductive, and I would advise you
to look for some other community that is more responsive.

I did provide some answers. Please review them again.

Please have the gentleness [against me and the current/future readers]
to answer within the context of the original writings.

I will be more careful in the future.

--
Robert Kern
(e-mail address removed)

"In the fields of hell where the grass grows high
Are the graves of dreams allowed to die."
-- Richard Harter

 

[Tim Peters]

[Ilias Lazaridis]
....

Let's see:

The process would be:

a) A Python Foundation official states: "of course we accept diversity
and of course we are intrested that our source-code-base compiles
directly with MinGW (and other compilers)".

Well, I'm a Director of the Python Software Foundation, and my view is
"the more platforms the merrier". But I'm not paid to work on Python,
and I don't have time to volunteer to help MinGW along, so I don't
anticipate that I'll do anything here beyond writing this reply.

I think you're mistaken about the role the PSF plays here. For
example, the PSF does no development work on Python -- all work on
Python comes from volunteers, and the PSF can't tell anyone what to
do. The PSF did start a grant program last year, and a proposal to
fund MinGW-for-Python development would certainly be considered. But
that too requires that someone volunteer to write such a proposal, and
take their chances on getting a grant. Those chances are,
unfortunately, not good, since even in the program's first year we got
proposals requesting funding vastly exceeding the US$40K we could
afford to spend.

That leaves volunteers, or a company that wants what you want enough
to pay for it on their own (which has happened, but not often -- I
don't think it's happened since Zope Corp funded development of the
datetime module).

b) the pyMinGW developer states: "I am intrested that my patches are
included within the main python source code base" [of course this
contribution would deserve to be mentioned somewhere]

c) One part of the Python Community states: "look those loosers, like to
use MinGW toolkit - pah! I'll continue to use my super-optimizing, xx%
faster results, less hassle Microsoft-Compiler"

d) One part of the Python Community states: "I'm very happy that my
toolset of choice gets official support, to which I can contribute as a
community member"

e) there is no point e. People start simply to cooperate, thus python's
evolution is ensured.

Sorry, I didn't grasp the point of b thru e.

...
Good night to all.

Likewise!

 

[Jeff Shannon]

I think the same applies to developers. Not every programmer is
willing to go through a lot of pain and effort just to get something
simple to work.

True... but given I.L.'s insistence on a rather stringent set of
requirements (fully open-source toolchain to produce closed-source
software on proprietary OS), and his attitude ("Why haven't all of you
done this for me already? WHY WHY WHY?"), he comes across as someone
who's *insisting* that *someone else* should go to a lot of pain and
effort on *his* behalf. Indeed, he's insisting that the Python
community should provide volunteer effort because it will (supposedly)
assist him in his commercial endeavor.

Notably, when you've commented in a reasonable manner about having
apparently similar needs, several people have offered suggestions as
to how to solve your problems. People have also offered I.L.
suggestions, but he derides them as not being exactly what he wants
and continues to insist that others should perform volunteer work for
his benefit.

Now, there's nothing wrong with asking (politely) why certain things
are the way they are, or suggesting that it'd be nice if someone
changed a few things. But the insistence that he's being horribly
wronged because people aren't jumping at the chance to assist him is
more than a little bit offensive -- especially when he's turning up
his nose at solutions that are close (but not exact) matches to his
"requirements". Instead of saying "Hey, someone's done half my work
for me -- great!", he's saying "Hey, why haven't you done the rest of
my work!"

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International

 

[jfj]

I'm a newcomer to python:

[EVALUATION] - E01: The Java Failure - May Python Helps?
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/75f0c5c35374f553

My trollometer's beeping...

When person 'A' calls person 'B' a troll, these are the possibilities:

1. 'A' is indeed a troll

2. 'B' is the troll

3. both 'A' and 'B' are trolls

4. nobody is a troll. they're computer scientists passionate about their
ideas and they are trying to convince each other.

5. nobody is a troll and there is no trolling going on.

Now, it's rather common to accuse people of trolling these days.
The fact that Markus Wankus said that Ilias is a troll does not mean
that everybody should reply to him in that tone.
This is a one .vs many battle and it sucks.


gerald

 

[Cameron Laird]

[Ilias Lazaridis]
... .
.
.
That leaves volunteers, or a company that wants what you want enough
to pay for it on their own (which has happened, but not often -- I
don't think it's happened since Zope Corp funded development of the
datetime module).

.
.
.
'Depending how you categorize things, there have been a few others
since then--IBM, for example, has paid non-IBM people for Python
stuff IBM open-sourced.

Well, maybe more than a few, now that I think about it.

 

[David Fraser]

Actually, no. We ran into some issues with Python 2.4 that caused us
to return to Python 2.3.5. But I would really like to upgrade to
Python 2.4. So I started researching the subject before I did
anything.

If you are telling me that minGW can compile extensions that are
compatible with the Python 2.4 that uses msvcr71.dll, then that is good
news indeed. Is there anything that needs to be configured or patched
to make this happen? And how does minGW know which dll to link? What
if I have both versions of Python installed - 2.3.5 and 2.4? Is there
an easy way to detect this and switch between the two dlls?

If I'm asking questions already answered elsewhere, I'd love a link to
that resource, if you have it.

I use MinGW myself to compile extensions for Python 2.3.x so you should
have no problems there. And it seems like from the rest of the thread
that it works for Python 2.4 as well.
But please just download it, try it out, and report any problems in a
separate thread here - I'm sure you'll find people more than willing to
help. The actual error messages etc will yield more valuable discussion
than any speculation now - or you might find it just working

David

 

[Duncan Booth]

If I understand this right, I cannot produce commercial software with
the cygwin toolset.

Contrariwise. You can produce commercial software, and it doesn't have to
be GPL licensed. However if you want to distribute it (and much, possibly
most, commercial software is never distributed) you have to choose between
making it open-source, or buying a commercial license for cygwin. You do
realise that you can produce open-source software commercially?

If you want to make your program closed source then to distribute it you
have to pay for the cygwin license, which all seems pretty fair to me. You
have a problem with that?

 

[Fredrik Lundh]

5. nobody is a troll and there is no trolling going on.

http://tinyurl.com/6xmfz

</F>

 

[Ilias Lazaridis]

[Ilias Lazaridis]
...

Let's see:

The process would be:

a) A Python Foundation official states: "of course we accept diversity
and of course we are intrested that our source-code-base compiles
directly with MinGW (and other compilers)".

Well, I'm a Director of the Python Software Foundation, and my view is
"the more platforms the merrier".

I extract: "you are intrested, that the source-code-base compiles
directly with MinGW (and other compilers)".

Thus you should be intrested, that existent patches are incorporated
into the source-code-base.

The suggested process ist: use of #defines whenever possible, to avoid
influence on the existent behaviour of the code.

But I'm not paid to work on Python,
and I don't have time to volunteer to help MinGW along, so I don't
anticipate that I'll do anything here beyond writing this reply.

You have done already very much.

But should should take some time to evaluate community needs.

I think you're mistaken about the role the PSF plays here. For
example, the PSF does no development work on Python -- all work on
Python comes from volunteers, and the PSF can't tell anyone what to
do.

I understand.

PSF has no influence on the development. I've read a little around, and
start to understand:

http://www.python.org/psf/records/board/minutes-2004-11-09.html

The PSF did start a grant program last year, and a proposal to

[...] - (funding)

I don't think that a founding is neccessary.

This effort could be driven by the intrested community members (which
obviously exist).

b) the pyMinGW developer states: "I am intrested that my patches are
included within the main python source code base" [of course this
contribution would deserve to be mentioned somewhere]

I mean the developer of those patches:

http://jove.prohosting.com/iwave/ipython/pyMinGW.html

He must be intrested that his patches are incorporated to the main
source code base, which would render his website useless [but of course
not his efforts and reputation].

[Of course his website could still serve as an "central point" for
intrested MinGW specific contributors.]

From the replies within this thread, i've extracted that some community
members would think somehow this way.

From the replies within this thread, i've extracted that some community
members would think somehow this way.

A solid source-code-base and centralized efforts are a fundamentall part
for the evolution of python.

Sorry, I didn't grasp the point of b thru e.

I've tried to clarify.

-

Now, can you please tell me the process I have to follow to suggest the
following (to the PSF or to the programmers or to the decision takers),
possibly to get at least a vote on it:

"Please ensure that the source-code-base compliles directly with MinGW.
The suggested process is to:

* provide the infrastructure
(e.g. mailinglist, issue- tracking-category,... )

* Notify the community about this subproject to channelise efforts

* include existing MinGW specific patches

* ensure future verificatioin of changes,
* optimal: due to an automated build-system
* or simpler: due to community-feedback
"

I've read a little about the processes:

http://www.python.org/dev/
http://www.python.org/dev/culture.html
http://www.python.org/dev/process.html

But I can't figure it out.

Likewise!

..

 

[Ilias Lazaridis]

It is. However, mingW has nothing to do with "using an open-sourcer
toolchain".

Python runs in an environment with a full, open-source tool chain. You

[...] - (twisting context and personal requirements)

sorry, no further comment.

..

 

[Ilias Lazaridis]

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:



Contrariwise. You can produce commercial software, and it doesn't have to
be GPL licensed. However if you want to distribute it (and much, possibly
most, commercial software is never distributed) you have to choose between
making it open-source, or buying a commercial license for cygwin. You do
realise that you can produce open-source software commercially?

I understand that I've possibly not expressed myself clear.

"proprietary software" should be the right term, right?

If you want to make your program closed source then to distribute it you
have to pay for the cygwin license, which all seems pretty fair to me. You
have a problem with that?

yes.

..

 

[Ilias Lazaridis]

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

There is a OS-tool-chain supported on windows, cygwin.

this depends on cygwin.dll, which is GPL licensed

[or am I wrong?]

It is GPL licensed with an amendment which prevents the GPL
spreading

[...]

If I understand this right, I cannot produce commercial software
with the cygwin toolset.

Wait, you demand a completely open source toolchain on a proprietary
operating system to develop proprietary software?

I do not 'demand' this.

You've described existing constructs, which I simply like to use.

The mind *boggles*.

..

 

[Ilias Lazaridis]

Ilias Lazaridis wrote: [...]

Please speak for yourself.

I think that my participation in the community for the past six years
and a rational examination of the responses you have received so far
qualify me, just a little bit, to conclude that this community does
not tolerate your kind of behaviour well.

I do tolerate their behaviour.

I have to.

This is a public resource.

If you want one that does so tolerate your behaviour, you need to
keep looking.

I don't need to look.

They read, silently, deriving their conclusions.

About me.

About you.

About the python community.

[It is of course sad, that the "bad manners" / "missing focusation on
the context" of the actively writing part reflects directly to the whole
community.]

The guy who wrote Python originally and is still the head developer.
ok

http://www.python.org/~guido/


Volunteerism does not, indeed, exclude professionalism. However,
being professional does not entail satisfying the desires of everyone
who asks. Being professional does not mean that volunteerism is not
the driving force of this community.

If this does not appeal to you, then this is not the community that
you are looking for.

I've not understood what you've written.

But I understand that it is not relevant to the topic.

Okay, let me clarify:

[...] - (processing model)

Your suggestions affecting my processing model are irrelevant.

I would have been more than happy to until my web page was used. Now
I feel some obligation to correct some things.

You webpage is a public resource.

And it was terribly outdated.

Now you have corrected your website.

Thank you.

I am speaking as a member of this community, not necessarily for this
community. But I do have some experience with how this community
behaves and how it responds to people who behave like you do. I know
that they do not mix well at all.

If you want a community that does tolerate this behaviour, you need
to keep looking.

I'm not looking for such a community.

You could do it much more efficiently.

[...] - (processing suggestions detected, not readed)

sorry, my processing is not the topic here.

If you like to help me and other newcomers, please give me
simple some answers on the initial questions.

I did provide some answers. Please review them again.

Please have the gentleness [against me and the current/future
readers] to answer within the context of the original writings.

I will be more careful in the future.

You can still give your answers within the main thread, thus they don't
get lost in this huge thread.

..

 

[Ilias Lazaridis]

Yes, but with that I could've been standing up before ending up on
the floor. I wrote it as I felt it!. Its a really good demonstration as
to the depth of the research performed by Illias.

I thin I understand what you mean.

"Guido van Rossum is the project's lead developer. In recognition of
this role, he's sometimes jokingly called the Benevolent Dictator For
Life, or BDFL; the acronym is occasionally used in python-dev postings,
especially in a context such as "making that change will require a BDFL
pronouncement". In theory the BDFL makes all the decisions about what
goes in to Python and what doesn't. "
source: http://www.python.org/dev/process.html

I'm waiting for the "Who's Matz?" comment in comp.lang.ruby....

Stephen

..

 

[Ilias Lazaridis]

(snip)



I couldn't agree more. You need to find a community that *does* care
about essential needs. Might I recommend Perl or Ruby?

you can review this thread.

[EVALUATION] - E01: The Java Failure - May Ruby Helps?
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.ruby/msg/676a2fbaf48046ac

Currently, I tend more to python, but I don't think that I can keep my
initial enthusiasm up.

..

 

[Ilias Lazaridis]

Wrong. They do. They just don't care about *your* essential needs and
requirements which *you* want *others* to fulfill at *their* cost. As
others have said, "do some work yourself".

your accousations are false.

please review my initial message.

Stephen

..