It does not look good for Target. Web Accessibility news

A

Animesh K

Chaddy2222 said:
Hi all, I just found this article on the Target case and thought that
a lot of you would be interested.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071003/wr_nm/target_blind_dc_4

OOT, what is a good site to know about accessibility features? I presume
w3 must be having something.

Are alt and title tags enough? Or something more is needed?

Given the number of bugs in IE, are there disability related bugs in IE?
If yes, how about a lawsuit on IE for not rendering these
disabled-accessibility features properly?
 
K

Karl Groves

OOT, what is a good site to know about accessibility features? I presume
w3 must be having something.

A quick Googling could have answered that question. ;-)
http://www.w3.org/WAI/

Another good source for into: http://www.webaim.org
Are alt and title tags enough? Or something more is needed?

Not even close.
http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/
Given the number of bugs in IE, are there disability related bugs in
IE?

The "bugs" most often encountered in IE most often have to do with
security and support for web standards. The interface to IE is actually
pretty accessible.
If yes, how about a lawsuit on IE for not rendering these
disabled-accessibility features properly?

User agent manufacturers are not to blame for accessibility problems
created by web authors.

Generally speaking, the software on the user's computer will be far more
accessible than the content they encounter on the Web. That's not to say
that desktop software is immune to accessibility problems, but rather
that accessible software is far easier to come by than accessible
websites.
 
A

Andy Dingley

OOT, what is a good site to know about accessibility features? I presume
w3 must be having something.

You presume wrongly, sad to say. The W3C efforts here have been
pitiful.

The best resource is Joe Clark's site, and his excellent accessibility
book. This both puts the case for it, and explains the techniques to
achieve it. Best of all, the full text is online for free
http://joeclark.org/book/sashay/serialization/
 
D

dorayme

Andy Dingley said:
You presume wrongly, sad to say. The W3C efforts here have been
pitiful.

The best resource is Joe Clark's site, and his excellent accessibility
book. This both puts the case for it, and explains the techniques to
achieve it. Best of all, the full text is online for free
http://joeclark.org/book/sashay/serialization/

Good one. Out of the many positive things which speak for
themselves, I was reminded of something that is an irritating
design fault, which this url is a very very mild case of. It is
tiresome to be having to click next buttons when you want to
simply read a lot of an article on line. It is a mild case
becaiuse to be fair to the designer, he provides a fair chunk.
Sites like How Stuff Work are infuriating in this regard, and
there are many others as bad or worse. I can understand placing
limits for bandwidth where there are a lot of pictures.

Basically, with text articles there should be more generous
limits before user *has* to press buttons. There are some very
useful devices I use to go up and down, scroll wheels, up and
down arrows on keyboard, page up and down buttons. Easier than
the *interruptions* from locating visual buttons and clicking.

At the very least, authors might consider providing a facility
where the whole of an article can be read on line by simple
scrolling. Authors often provide a print version, they might
consider more often providing a "continuous" online version for
those who would like such.

(I have not read the URL here completely, I do not know if author
raises this matter? As I say, his is a very minor irritation, I
might be a little unusual in this regard? But thegeneral point I
make is good.)
 
A

Andy Dingley

Basically, with text articles there should be more generous
limits before user *has* to press buttons.

Have a read of the JAIC site (Journal of the American Institute for
Conservation). Fascinating content, I wish they had newer stuff on-line
too, and you might like how they've done navigation. Articles are
duplicated: they're up as both page per section, and also a simple
linear format of the whole article as one. HTML too, not PDF !

http://aic.stanford.edu/jaic/
 
D

dorayme

Andy Dingley said:
Have a read of the JAIC site (Journal of the American Institute for
Conservation). Fascinating content, I wish they had newer stuff on-line
too, and you might like how they've done navigation. Articles are
duplicated: they're up as both page per section, and also a simple
linear format of the whole article as one. HTML too, not PDF !

http://aic.stanford.edu/jaic/

Yes, that's the way! An "entire article" button.
 
A

Animesh K

Andy said:
You presume wrongly, sad to say. The W3C efforts here have been
pitiful.

The best resource is Joe Clark's site, and his excellent accessibility
book. This both puts the case for it, and explains the techniques to
achieve it. Best of all, the full text is online for free
http://joeclark.org/book/sashay/serialization/

Thanks Andy and Karl! I will look into both the links at leisure. It
sounds like fun to be accessible to a blind without actually talking
with him.
 
T

Travis Newbury

Hi all, I just found this article on the Target case and thought that
a lot of you would be interested.http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071003/wr_nm/target_blind_dc_4

In a strictly legal sense this is really nothing. All it means is
that they will go to trial. But Target will end up losing in the
socialistic courts of California, and we will move one step closer to
a bland vanilla world where there is no incentive to draw with color.

You know, if they put a cap on the amount of money trial lawyers could
make this lawsuit (as well as thousands of others) would disappear in
about a second.

Or better yet, how about if you sue someone and lose then both the
plaintiff and the lawyer are equally responsible for the defendant's
leagal fees, expenses, and a little punitive money. THAT would put an
end to some of this bullshit.
 
T

Travis Newbury


"These guidelines do not discourage content developers from using
images, video, etc., but rather explain how to make multimedia content
more accessible to a wide audience."

"etc"? Hardly, it completely limits "etc" Simple example an all
Flash site. The guidelines limit virtually any innovation on the web.
 
P

Phil Payne

"etc"? Hardly, it completely limits "etc" Simple example an all
Flash site. The guidelines limit virtually any innovation on the web.

Quite the reverse. Thay make the innovation of handheld browsers MUCH
more accessible.

A million iPhones sold? How many Blackberrys? How many Nokia
Communicators?

And these devices are being used by people in the right demographics,
with high disposable incomes. Most of the guidelines for making web
sites accessible also make them handheld friendly.

Flash is as obsolete as frames. Sorry - backed wrong horse. It's
actually disabled on this machine.

I just tried to get an HPI check on a car using a handheld while
standing on a dealer's forecourt. Can't do it - browser NEEDS Flash.
Dumb, dumb, dumb. HPI's business went to Halfords instead.
 
S

SpaceGirl

Quite the reverse. Thay make the innovation of handheld browsers MUCH
more accessible.

A million iPhones sold? How many Blackberrys? How many Nokia
Communicators?

And these devices are being used by people in the right demographics,
with high disposable incomes. Most of the guidelines for making web
sites accessible also make them handheld friendly.

Flash is as obsolete as frames. Sorry - backed wrong horse. It's
actually disabled on this machine.

That's an extremely ignorant statement.

Flash is the fastest growing online market. Flash video is THE single
fastest growing technology at the moment. I'm really shocked by your
statement.
 
P

Phil Payne

That's an extremely ignorant statement.
Flash is the fastest growing online market. Flash video is THE single
fastest growing technology at the moment. I'm really shocked by your
statement.

This is from IPSOS over a year ago:

http://www.ipsos-na.com/news/pressrelease.cfm?id=3049

"Globally, just over one-fourth (28%) of mobile phone owners worldwide
have browsed the Internet on a wireless handset, up slightly from 25%
at the end 2004. Interestingly, growth in this behavior for 2005 was
driven by the older users (age 35+), indicating that surfing the
Internet on a mobile phone is emerging as a mainstream activity, no
longer dominated by the traditional early adopter segment - young
males - typical of many new consumer technologies."

Since then we've had Apple weigh with the iPhone and a whole raft of
other suppliers bring other products to market. The vast,
overwhelming majority of handsets currently sold have some sort of
browser embedded and often a better one available for download.
Openwave, Opera, Safari, etc.

http://www.operamini.com/beta/features/ - find where it mentions
Flash.

Flash is just form over function - it sells because it's pretty and
that fools many site creator's clients.
From the Webmaster Guidelines:

"If you're using text to try to describe something search engines
can't access - for example, Javascript, images, or Flash files -
remember that many human visitors using screen readers, mobile
browsers, browsers without plug-ins, and slow connections will not be
able to view that content either."

Now take another look at the growth of the browser-capable handset
market.
 
C

Chaddy2222

This is from IPSOS over a year ago:

http://www.ipsos-na.com/news/pressrelease.cfm?id=3049

"Globally, just over one-fourth (28%) of mobile phone owners worldwide
have browsed the Internet on a wireless handset, up slightly from 25%
at the end 2004. Interestingly, growth in this behavior for 2005 was
driven by the older users (age 35+), indicating that surfing the
Internet on a mobile phone is emerging as a mainstream activity, no
longer dominated by the traditional early adopter segment - young
males - typical of many new consumer technologies."

Since then we've had Apple weigh with the iPhone and a whole raft of
other suppliers bring other products to market. The vast,
overwhelming majority of handsets currently sold have some sort of
browser embedded and often a better one available for download.
Openwave, Opera, Safari, etc.

http://www.operamini.com/beta/features/- find where it mentions
Flash.

Flash is just form over function - it sells because it's pretty and
that fools many site creator's clients.


"If you're using text to try to describe something search engines
can't access - for example, Javascript, images, or Flash files -
remember that many human visitors using screen readers, mobile
browsers, browsers without plug-ins, and slow connections will not be
able to view that content either."

Now take another look at the growth of the browser-capable handset
market.
This is all very true, but I think in places such as Australia (where
I am) it will be just too much $$ for people to brows the web
frequently on their mobile devices.
 
A

Andy Dingley

This is all very true, but I think in places such as Australia (where
I am) it will be just too much $$ for people to brows the web
frequently on their mobile devices.

Why? It's already happening in South Africa, and they've got equal
distances, equally low technical-population densities, and far less
money to do it with.
 
J

Jerry Stuckle

SpaceGirl said:
That's an extremely ignorant statement.

Flash is the fastest growing online market. Flash video is THE single
fastest growing technology at the moment. I'm really shocked by your
statement.

Don't you know that any technology you don't like is obsolete?

What he's ignoring is that most web surfing is NOT done on phones.
also, I can't help it if his phone is old and obsolete. Maybe he needs
to get an updated one.

I agree flash use is growing. In fact, I want some flash on one of my
sites (no, not the home page! - an interactive demo). But I'm not the
graphics types. Gotta find a designer I can afford to sub to who can do
this :)

Flash is overused in some cases, IMHO. But it is necessary for some things.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
(e-mail address removed)
==================
 
S

SpaceGirl

Since then we've had Apple weigh with the iPhone and a whole raft of
other suppliers bring other products to market. The vast,
overwhelming majority of handsets currently sold have some sort of
browser embedded and often a better one available for download.
Openwave, Opera, Safari, etc.

http://www.operamini.com/beta/features/- find where it mentions
Flash.

Flash is just form over function - it sells because it's pretty and
that fools many site creator's clients.

Statements like this demonstrate a clear misunderstanding of the
technology itself.
"If you're using text to try to describe something search engines
can't access - for example, Javascript, images, or Flash files -
remember that many human visitors using screen readers, mobile
browsers, browsers without plug-ins, and slow connections will not be
able to view that content either."

Search engines are machines. Bits of software. People are emotional,
generally visual creatures, unlike search engine. A search engine
understands text, based on rules. People understand colour, layout,
motion and have emotional responses to these things. I would hope that
designers build sites for people, not for search engines. A search
engine is a means to an end (indexing, accessing a market I suppose),
but once you have that precious visitor on your site that's when
everything else becomes important.

Flash is one way of presenting the sort of Rich Media that enables
these "human" sites; there's nothing evil or irrelvant about Flash -
it's just a tool. Just like HTML, or JPEG images, or AJAX or XML...

Classing Flash as some sort of "bells and whistles" toy though is
really to completely misunderstand the platform that it provides. This
is not that unexpected - Flash has been really abused over the years,
but over the last 18 months has really come into its own. Flash itself
is a web browser. It's also a virtual machine, we an extremely
powerful programming language at its core. It leverage's the kind of
functionality that can only be dreamed of with JS and traditional
HTML.

Here's the caveat though; Like any tool, you select what's best for
the job at hand. Flash is not idea for all projects. Flash generally
is not good for mobile platforms (yet) as they lack the horsepower to
run the full version of Flash. In other words it's better to do it
other ways.

Also, you have to think how people use the WWW; it's a VERY big place,
and there are a lot of differing browsers and technologies. While you
should always make your content available to the largest numbers of
people possible, focusing your projects on particular audiences is far
more effective. In specific markets, Flash has almost 100% penetration
(specifically, younger markets with money to spend), they are more
likely to have Flash enabled, a broadband connection and be impressed/
interested in rich content (video, animation, sound) - think online
magazines, games sites, sites for bands.

So... form over function? If that "form" provides a more relevant
interface to your functionality, writing it off as irrelevant is
seriously restricting the way you communicate with your audience.

You can have the most functional web site on the planet, and it can
fail because of band branding, or poor layout, or a competitor with a
nicer looking site.

It's dangerously naive to think that these things don't matter.
Now take another look at the growth of the browser-capable handset
market.

BTW.... most smartphones support Flash.
 
S

SpaceGirl

This is all very true, but I think in places such as Australia (where
I am) it will be just too much $$ for people to brows the web
frequently on their mobile devices.

The irony being? Flash files can be, much, much smaller than average
web pages. You can get a complete UI inside just a few Kb.
 

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