Java tops C as most popular language in developer index

M

Mark Storkamp

Lynn McGuire <[email protected]> said:
Java tops C as most popular language in developer index:
http://www.infoworld.com/t/java-programming/java-tops-c-most-popular-langu
age-in-developer-index-224781

Java is 15.978, C is 15.974 using their index.
But when you add C++ and Objective C to C, you
get a total of 25.345.

Lynn

That information seems to come from
http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
where they explain how a change in their method has affected C and
Objective-C negatively. So either they've been wrong in the past having
C ahead of Java, or they're wrong now. But with only a 0.004%
difference, and no margin of error given, it really doesn't matter
anyway.
 
J

Jens Stuckelberger

Java tops C as most popular language in developer index:
http://www.infoworld.com/t/java-programming/java-tops-c-most- popular-language-in-developer-index-224781

Java is 15.978, C is 15.974 using their index. But when you add C++ and
Objective C to C, you get a total of 25.345.

Why not add Ada, Haskell and Python, while you are at it? C++ and
Objective C are not C. You might just as well, and probably more
justifiably, add them to Java instead.
 
G

glen herrmannsfeldt

Lynn McGuire said:
Java is 15.978, C is 15.974 using their index.
But when you add C++ and Objective C to C, you
get a total of 25.345.

It always seemed to me that Java was more C-like than C++,
so why not add Java and C?

Just because they have the letter C in the name doesn't
make them similar. Might as well ad COBOL, too.

-- glen
 
L

Lynn McGuire

It always seemed to me that Java was more C-like than C++,
so why not add Java and C?

Just because they have the letter C in the name doesn't
make them similar. Might as well ad COBOL, too.

-- glen

To me, C++ and Objective C are extensions of
C. Java is a do-over of C.

Lynn
 
J

James Kuyper

On 8/14/2013 11:49 AM, Mark Storkamp wrote: ....

The margin of error is probably +-5%.

Your basis for that estimate is what, exactly? Like most other survey
reports where no attempt is made to estimate the margin of error, it
also doesn't contain enough information to make your own estimate.
Therefore, presumably your estimate is based upon some other source?
 
J

James Kuyper

Java tops C as most popular language in developer index:
http://www.infoworld.com/t/java-pro...st-popular-language-in-developer-index-224781

Java is 15.978, C is 15.974 using their index.
But when you add C++ and Objective C to C, you
get a total of 25.345.

Before making a big deal about those results, take a careful look at the
Java and C lines on the "Long term trends" plot for the report that the
article mentioned above was based upon:
<http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html>
 
M

Malcolm McLean

Java tops C as most popular language in developer index:

http://www.infoworld.com/t/java-pro...st-popular-language-in-developer-index-224781


Java is 15.978, C is 15.974 using their index.

But when you add C++ and Objective C to C, you
get a total of 25.345.
Java tends to be used a lot in universities as an introductory programming
language. Since the statistics measure websites that use the language for
pedagogical or demonstrative purposes, that will skew the results.

Most interesting or important functions are coded in C. But a lot of actual
applications are a layer of another language put on top. For instance a typical
application might query a database, and display results on a webpage. The
databases will have a query parsing engine and indexing and caching algorithms,
which are likely to be written in C. The web browser will call code to render
text and images into windows, which will also likely be written in C. But the
two are glued together by a high-level language, which may well not be C.
 
G

glen herrmannsfeldt

James Kuyper said:
On 08/14/2013 01:05 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:

(snip on poll results)
Your basis for that estimate is what, exactly? Like most other survey
reports where no attempt is made to estimate the margin of error, it
also doesn't contain enough information to make your own estimate.
Therefore, presumably your estimate is based upon some other source?

Without many assumptions, the uncertainty in a count, such as
the number of poll respondants, is the square root of that number.

A 5% uncertainty, 1 in 20, would be usual if 400 people were
in that sample. It then takes 625 people to get 4%, about 1000
to get 3%, and 2500 to get 2%. Assuming the cost is linear in the
number of people polled, note that the cost starts to go up
pretty fast at that point.

It should be done separately for each category, but some will do it
based on the total number of responders.

Worse than 5%, it is probably not worth doing at all, so
about 5% is pretty usual.

-- glen
 
G

glen herrmannsfeldt

(snip, I wrote)
To me, C++ and Objective C are extensions of C.
Java is a do-over of C.

I suppose, but it always seemed to met that C++ tried to be
a little more different than was needed. Well, partly that is
because I never liked the C++ << and >> I/O operators.

Java tried for a reasonable balance, but also not to alienate
C programmers.

-- glen
 
J

James Kuyper

(snip on poll results)



Without many assumptions, the uncertainty in a count, such as
the number of poll respondants, is the square root of that number.

We were given neither a count, nor the number of respondents, so that
wouldn't be a very useful rule even if it were applicable.

The number we were given is a percentage. If p is the population average
for the fraction of the population for which something is true, the
margin of error when estimating p using a sample size of n is
sqrt(p*(1-p)/n). IIRC, using the sample mean to estimate the value of p
for purposes of applying this equation make it an under-estimate, but
that's less of a problem for sufficiently large n.

But we weren't given the sample size, either.
A 5% uncertainty, 1 in 20, would be usual if 400 people were
in that sample. It then takes 625 people to get 4%, about 1000
to get 3%, and 2500 to get 2%. Assuming the cost is linear in the
number of people polled, note that the cost starts to go up
pretty fast at that point.

The testing methodology involves searching for references to a given
programming language on a variety of web sites. The cost per data point
is pretty small, and the number of samples taken should be pretty large.
I'd suspect that the errors in their results are dominated by systematic
error associated with their sampling technique, rather than statistical
error due to sample size.
As far as I know, we have no information from which to estimate those
systematic errors.
 
J

Jorgen Grahn

(snip, I wrote)



I suppose, but it always seemed to met that C++ tried to be
a little more different than was needed. Well, partly that is
because I never liked the C++ << and >> I/O operators.

Java tried for a reasonable balance, but also not to alienate
C programmers.

Are you seriously suggesting that C programmers would feel more at
home in Java than in C++, because Java doesn't overload the <<
operator?

Java:
- everything is a reference
- pointers don't exist (except as NullPointerExceptions)
- there are no functions, only classes with methods
- your usual OS APIs and libraries don't exist; use the-framework-
of-the-month instead!

C++:
- don't use void*, and your C programs will pretty much
work as before

(Yes, I'm biased.)

/Jorgen
 
M

Malcolm McLean

The testing methodology involves searching for references to a given
programming language on a variety of web sites. The cost per data point
is pretty small, and the number of samples taken should be pretty large.
I'd suspect that the errors in their results are dominated by systematic
error associated with their sampling technique, rather than statistical
error due to sample size.

As far as I know, we have no information from which to estimate those
systematic errors.
They're not sampling. They're taking a whole population, measuring it,
then drawing conclusions about the factors that underlie those measurements.
But you can't be perfect. In any census, there'll be some you miss, some
you count twice, and some marginal cases where it's not clear whether they
should be counted or not. Then conclusions don't necessarily follow.
For instance if you do an census of English people, you'll find that the
number claiming to be "Anglican" is about five times as large as the number
claiming to be "Catholic". So you'd assume that Anglican congregations are
about five times as large. Actually they're about equal, and asking people
to self-identify with a religion isn't a good way of predicting behaviour.
 
J

Jorgen Grahn

It always seemed to me that Java was more C-like than C++,
so why not add Java and C?

Just because they have the letter C in the name doesn't
make them similar. Might as well ad COBOL, too.

The thing the C* languages mentioned (except COBOL) *do* have in
common is that they can easily call C APIs. (I was about to add
"and survive without a large runtime environment", but I don't know
how Objective C works in that respect).

Not that this makes summing up their numbers appropriate ...

/Jorgen
 
L

Lynn McGuire

Your basis for that estimate is what, exactly? Like most other survey
reports where no attempt is made to estimate the margin of error, it
also doesn't contain enough information to make your own estimate.
Therefore, presumably your estimate is based upon some other source?

SWAG - Scientific Wild Ass Guess.

Lynn
 
L

Lynn McGuire

Java tends to be used a lot in universities as an introductory programming
language. Since the statistics measure websites that use the language for
pedagogical or demonstrative purposes, that will skew the results.

Most interesting or important functions are coded in C. But a lot of actual
applications are a layer of another language put on top. For instance a typical
application might query a database, and display results on a webpage. The
databases will have a query parsing engine and indexing and caching algorithms,
which are likely to be written in C. The web browser will call code to render
text and images into windows, which will also likely be written in C. But the
two are glued together by a high-level language, which may well not be C.

Fat Browser clients, such as google apps (gmail),
are written in Java and compiled down to Javascript.
We are getting ready to convert our software from
C++ to Java for this reason.

Lynn
 
N

Nobody

Java tops C as most popular language in developer index:

Note that the "index" in question is tiobe, which monitors web traffic
relating to a language, not the actual use of the language (and defining
the latter is almost as hard as measuring it).
 

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