JavaScript libraries questions


V

VK

comp.lang.javascript charter:

The proposed comp.lang.javascript will be open to discussion on all
aspects of JavaScript, as it relates to HTML, Java, Perl, the World
Wide Web in general, and other related languages. The scope of
discussion will specifically exclude matters which are *solely*
related to Sun Microsystems, Inc.'s Java language, which should be
discussed in comp.lang.java.

"all aspects" includes _all_ aspects together with using 3rd party
libraries, debugging 3rd party libraries, writing own libraries,
commenting on technical benefits and disadvantages of different
libraries.

It also includes evangelistic discussions of allowance of 3rd party
library usage as such in Javascript programming, the influence of
using library X, Y, Z on personal chakras and any other flooding of
the kind.

It is important to mention that the second type of topics can be
started iif (if-and-only-if) the original post explicitly raises
relevant questions and invites for discussion.

If anyone is experiencing a single specific descriptive problem while
using a 3rd party library and asking for help in this group, she or he
doesn't give a damn neither about others' personal opinions about the
whole library nor about others' personal opinions on using 3rd party
libraries as such, nor about others' personal opinions about herself
for using the/a library.

This way for a question about a single specific descriptive problem
while using a 3rd party the answering options are:
1) answer this particular question if the answer is known
2) silently ignore the post if the answer is not known or if the
coding style or approach is in strong disagreement with the personal
believes of the reader.
3) if no exact answer is given yet, it is possible to suggest in
polite form to address the problem to the support forum of the library
producer. For the most prominent packages for the year 2009 these are
(alphabetically):

Adobe AIR framework questions:
http://forums.adobe.com/community/air/air_general_discussion

Adobe Flash ActionScript questions:
http://forums.adobe.com/community/flash/flash_actionscript3
(ActionScript 3)
http://forums.adobe.com/community/flash/flash_actionscript
(ActionScript 2)

Dojo
http://www.dojotoolkit.org/forum

jQuery
http://groups.google.com/group/jquery-en (mailing list)

Prototype library and Ruby on Rails framework as related with
Prototype
http://groups.google.com/group/prototype-scriptaculous

A sample answer could be then:
"Hi, looks like no one here answered yet. You may get quicker answer
if repost your question at the ... library support forum. Their
address is ..."
or
"Hi, I don't know the answer to your problem but you may repost your
question at the ... library support forum. Their address is ..."

If a reader hates all libraries or one particular libraries or just
doesn't know the right answer then it is a particular problem of a
particular reader and OP (Original Poster) is not interested in
knowing about it.

Threads like http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.javascript/browse_frm/thread/f58fbe6867106bcf
are not acceptable neither as for a technical newsgroup nor as from
point of view of most primitives forms of netiquette.
That particular thread had to contain really only two posts: OP and
user "ace" answer. It could be one more post like
"Hi, I don't know the answer to your problem but you may repost your
question at the jQuery library support forum. Their address is
http://groups.google.com/group/jquery-en"

Note 1: Prototype naming problem
Because the word "prototype" defines a specific entity in Javascript,
it is sometimes difficult to understand right away if OP is asking
something about Javascript prototype or about Prototype library. It is
suggested to always write the library name as Prototype.js despite it
is not its name but the library file name. This way we will eliminate
possible confusion.

Note 2: Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam
It is possible to mention personal opinion on a/the library after the
answer is given, at the end of post and without making personal
attacks to OP just for the fact of using a/the library. Expressing
such personal opinion can not substitute the answer itself and it can
not to be the only content of the post. While being close to flooding
(posting for posting), one can express personal opinions after
suggesting the relevant forum or mailing list. Then the altered anser
could be:
"Hi, I don't know the answer to your problem but you may repost your
question at the jQuery library support forum. Their address is
http://groups.google.com/group/jquery-en
Personally I do not consider jQuery as a good choice because
(arguments follows)"
 
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T

Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn

VK said:
comp.lang.javascript charter:

The proposed comp.lang.javascript will be open to discussion on all
aspects of JavaScript, as it relates to HTML, Java, Perl, the World
Wide Web in general, and other related languages. [...]

The proposition for a charter of a newsgroup is of no relevance at all to
what is on-topic in that newsgroup. Relevant is only what the actual
charter and the newsgroup's FAQ (as an effort to document the newsgroup's
/status quo/) say.

Go away.


PointedEars
 
A

ace

Thomas said:
The proposed comp.lang.javascript will be open to discussion on all
aspects of JavaScript, as it relates to HTML, Java, Perl, the World
Wide Web in general, and other related languages. [...]

The proposition for a charter of a newsgroup is of no relevance at all to
what is on-topic in that newsgroup. Relevant is only what the actual

I don't know if VK posted a proposition (and if he did, why shouldn't
he?) but I'm curious in which way is his post in opposition with current
charter?

So could you?
 
D

David Mark

Thomas said:
The proposed comp.lang.javascript will be open to discussion on all
aspects of JavaScript, as it relates to HTML, Java, Perl, the World
Wide Web in general, and other related languages. [...]
The proposition for a charter of a newsgroup is of no relevance at all to
what is on-topic in that newsgroup.  Relevant is only what the actual

I don't know if VK posted a proposition (and if he did, why shouldn't
he?) but I'm curious in which way is his post in opposition with current
charter?

VK is a nut. Ignore him.

[snip]
 
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V

VK

  said:
  <snip>

It's iff in real maths books.

As a keyword it is also in VB but having all different meaning there.
As if-and-only-if yes, it's a purely math stuff :)
 
T

Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn

ace said:
VK wrote some good arguments in fluent english on the current issues in
this ng. I wouldn't call him nut.

He is if he ignores the current consensus about libraries in spite of the
evidence in favor of it, and quotes an outdated proposal for the newsgroup's
charter (instead of the actual charter) to support his insignificant opinion
(as he is nothing but an infrequent nuisance of incompetence and
cluelessness -- in short, a troll -- around here. Search the archives.)


PointedEars
 
J

Jorge

(...)
He is if he ignores the current consensus about libraries (...)

The "current consensus about libraries" is that libraries are intended
to :

1.- ease a web developer's life by providing a walk-around the
minefield of bugs and heterogeneous DOM implementations in a diversity
of browsers.

2.- provide a common and higher-level API than the built-ins.

Both of which, as you know, are Good Things.
 
V

VK

VK said:
comp.lang.javascript charter:
The proposed comp.lang.javascript will be open to discussion on all
aspects of JavaScript, as it relates to HTML, Java, Perl, the World
Wide Web in general, and other related languages. [...]

The proposition for a charter of a newsgroup is of no relevance at all to
what is on-topic in that newsgroup.  Relevant is only what the actual
charter

Your objection is not understood. I quoted the charter as it was
placed for voting and voted "yes" by the majority of voters Jan 27
1996. It is the actual and the only group charter. Please see the
relevant records at news.announce.newgroups where the voting took
place:

http://groups.google.com/group/news..._frm/thread/e472637f7141a60d/1cfd3fc1b03fd982
and the newsgroup's FAQ (as an effort to document the newsgroup's /statusquo/) say.

Neither newsgroup's FAQ nor some current "status quo" having any
relevance to the "allowed" and "forbidden" topics. Only group's
charter defines that and FAQ - which is not a required requisite of a
newsgroup - may only express some common interpretation of the charter
if the charter's wording is ambiguous in some of its parts.
Say it may be agreed upon that ActionScript should be discussed at
other forums because "all aspects of JavaScript, as it relates to
HTML, Java, Perl, the World Wide Web in general" doesn't define
clearly if a plugin with a proprietary JavaScript version in it is a
valid topic of the group. Others may argue with it because the charter
neither explicitly excludes such topics. Either point of view is valid
and no amount of wording in FAQ invalidates one of them.
At the same time a purely Java related questions are not valid here
and there can be no discussion on that.
 
T

Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn

VK said:
VK said:
comp.lang.javascript charter:
The proposed comp.lang.javascript will be open to discussion on all
aspects of JavaScript, as it relates to HTML, Java, Perl, the World
Wide Web in general, and other related languages. [...]
The proposition for a charter of a newsgroup is of no relevance at all to
what is on-topic in that newsgroup. Relevant is only what the actual
charter

Your objection is not understood.

I'm not at all surprised.
I quoted the charter as it was placed for voting and voted "yes" by
the majority of voters Jan 27 1996.

A lot of things have changed since then. For example, it would be a pity if
the charter still named *Netscape* JavaScript, and neither ECMAScript nor
JScript.
It is the actual and the only group charter.

If so, then that would be unfortunate as it would be out of date, too. The
newsgroup's tag line surely is.

See also said:
Please see the relevant records at news.announce.newgroups where the voting
took place:
No.

Neither newsgroup's FAQ nor some current "status quo" having any
relevance

Yes, they do. You have a lot to learn about group dynamics.
to the "allowed" and "forbidden" topics.

No topic is forbidden; it is my observation that some topics are just not
wanted because either they are off-topic or discussion about them has turned
out to lead nowhere. And as you are not at all a regular contributor to
this newsgroup (but instead just a troll or a half-wit trying to waste the
time of knowledgable people by making your ... special brain wiring getting
just a glimpse at reality), you are in the least likely position to be able
to judge the very relevant /status quo/ of this newsgroup.

Go away!


PointedEars
 
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V

VK

I quoted the charter as it was placed for voting and voted "yes" by
A lot of things have changed since then.  For example, it would be a pity if
the charter still named *Netscape* JavaScript, and neither ECMAScript nor
JScript.

<quote>
CHARTER: comp.lang.javascript

The proposed comp.lang.javascript will be open to discussion on all
aspects of JavaScript, as it relates to HTML, Java, Perl, the World
Wide Web in general, and other related languages. The scope of
discussion will specifically exclude matters which are *solely*
related to Sun Microsystems, Inc.'s Java language, which should be
discussed in comp.lang.java.
</quote>

Please point me to a single occurrence of "Netscape" in the text. For
the matter of "JavaScript" as the name of a particular scripting
language of a particular producer and not any other versions then it
is your personal interpretation of the charter. You may use in your
personal posts "Javascript" instead or use euphemistic clauses like
"the language we are talking about", "the language which name should
not be pronounced" etc.

If so, then that would be unfortunate as it would be out of date, too.  The
newsgroup's tag line surely is.

If you are in strong disagreement with the charter of this newsgroup
then leave it to open your own with the desired text. I personally do
not see in what aspects it is so outdated that prevents the group from
the normal functioning. Therefore I am comfortable to stay here.

Yes, it is one of copies of the charter and rationale from
news.announce.newgroups

"No" what? It didn't took place? It didn't took place there? It was
not a voting? Please learn to give unambiguous answers.
Yes, they do.  You have a lot to learn about group dynamics.

Please learn to quote. I wrote "Neither newsgroup's FAQ nor some
current "status quo" having any
relevance to the "allowed" and "forbidden" topics". - not as if I
denied any relevance at all to FAQ as may be concluded from your
answer. Assuming it was a mistake and you answered to what I wrote and
not to what you quoted:

No they don't. Some people may think they do, but it is of no
relevance to the Usenet functioning.
 
A

ace

Thomas said:
He is if he ignores the current consensus about libraries in spite of the
evidence in favor of it,

Irrelevant.
Even if so called consensus exists, this is still *public* Usenet
newsgroup and not someones private forum.
and quotes an outdated proposal for the newsgroup's
charter (instead of the actual charter)

He quoted official ng charter; you can always unsubscribe if you don't
like what is written there.
to support his insignificant opinion
(as he is nothing but an infrequent nuisance of incompetence and
cluelessness -- in short, a troll -- around here. Search the archives.)


And finally Ad hominem; your arguments are weak.
 
T

Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn

ace said:
Irrelevant.
Even if so called consensus exists, this is still *public* Usenet
newsgroup and not someones private forum.

Again, for the intellectually challenged among us: No questions are
forbidden-by-law, of course, but some questions are obviously not wanted and
thus they are unlikely to get answered in a way that pleases the questioner.

Who the heck are you anyway?


PointedEars
 
V

VK

I really, *really* don't want to involve myself in this, but I couldn't
help noticing that VK and ace appeared at the same time, don't use a
real name, and have the same unusual habit of omitting "the" and "a" in
their sentences. They also appear to agree with each other. Make of that
what you will. Could be a coincidence.

I assure you it is a coincidence and I am not a clone :)
I used to post rather intensively in this group before
http://groups.google.com/groups/pro...ACyz_OQrQcyYz3r2FO6G_E2ys9p7FBvuYqcsrUPIQKVkQ
but left it for a while.

Also let me assure you that anyone occasionally stating that Thomas is
acting as an a**hole is a VK's bot or a person hired by VK. There
could be much more natural reasons for that :)
 
V

VK

Also let me assure you that anyone occasionally stating that Thomas is
acting as an a**hole is a VK's bot or a person hired by VK. There
could be much more natural reasons for that :)

.... that not everyone ... of course :)
 
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A

ace

Thomas said:
Again, for the intellectually challenged among us: No questions are
forbidden-by-law, of course, but some questions are obviously not wanted

You mean, like Macbeth?
and
thus they are unlikely to get answered in a way that pleases the questioner.

If you don't like something and are unable to participate in
constructive manner, use your kill file (reading the netiquette could
help too) or just say the anti-Macbeth spell.
Who the heck are you anyway?

Participant of this ng, and you are?
 
A

ace

Conrad said:
I really, *really* don't want to involve myself in this,
:)

but I couldn't
help noticing that VK and ace appeared at the same time, don't use a
real name, and have the same unusual habit of omitting "the" and "a" in
their sentences. They also appear to agree with each other. Make of that
what you will. Could be a coincidence.

No, no; think again, there are to many similarities to be a coincidence. :)
 
D

Dr J R Stockton

In comp.lang.javascript message <[email protected]>, Sat,
6 Jun 2009 19:30:34 said:
VK said:
comp.lang.javascript charter:

The proposed comp.lang.javascript will be open to discussion on all
aspects of JavaScript, as it relates to HTML, Java, Perl, the World
Wide Web in general, and other related languages. [...]

The proposition for a charter of a newsgroup is of no relevance at all to
what is on-topic in that newsgroup. Relevant is only what the actual
charter and the newsgroup's FAQ (as an effort to document the newsgroup's
/status quo/) say.

I will grant you that VK should have distinguished more clearly between
the paragraph that was a full quotation of the Charter as given in the
FAQ Notes and the material he added after it; but he did clearly label
the beginning of the quotation, as you show above. The Notes clearly
state that the version as quoted is the version as passed.

Granted, it should have been rewritten before the vote.

AISB, you are frequently over-hasty; you are a careless bludnerer.
 
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