learning Modern C++

[arnuld]

1/ Books are great, but you will only make real progress by writing code.
So, whichever book you decide to use, get yourself a free compiler - in
fact preferably several - and get coding.

i use "Debian Sarge", hence running "GCC - 3.3.5". i know its quite old
but i will be able to to get Fedora Core 6 after 3rd-5th November, then
i will use Fedora.

And whilst small snippets are OK, a meaty project is the best way to
really get to grips with the language.

i know, trouble is, one can only work on a C++ based project if he know
& understands C++ syntax. i spent 2 years of my life as a "salesman" &
that taught me about the realities. "work" is, to put it short,
way...way...different from academics. i am desperately waiting for the
day when i will finish C++ & start "real-life coding" at
http://savannah.gnu.org/

2/ C++ is a big language, but it can be tackled one bit at a time -
don't try and learn the whole lot at once, instead learn the core
concepts and practice them, then move on to the next level.

yes & C++ Primer 4/e was really perfect for this way. anyway, i am
trying both "Stroustrup" & "Eckel" & within 1-2 days i will switch to
one book.

3/ If there is an economic imperative at work here - eg you can't
afford books - whilst I applaud your dedication to C++ I question it
from a commercial perspective. .NET and/or Java are a far shorter route
to paying the bills. I say this as someone who processes a good deal of
CVs from your part of the world.

yeah, you are right. 60% of jobs belong to the "Java + .NET/VB" world &
40% to all other languages & 25-30% of ground is captured by C++, i am
trying to compete on this 25% ground. why?...read on. i have my
juniors (from college) earning 10, 000 INRs per month using .NET & i am
penny-less :-( , (BTW they carry Engineering degrees, i do not & ask
them something about C++ & they say "Oh, i dont use OOD, so i dont need
C++" & ask them about "Common Lisp" they say "What is that? i have
heard about Lisp, what is this Common Lisp?" when they knew i learnt
Lisp, one of them said "Ok, now i got it, you programme robots". when
they asked why i learn Lisp, my answer was "to Hack" & then i heard
"you want to become a criminal?" & then i cam to know i was dealing
with "fucking IDIOTS" earning 10,000 INR/month. all of them use either
..NET or VB or Java.

but the bottom line is "they are earning 10,000 INR/month. i am trying
much hard to keep a balance between my desire of becoming a *Hacker* &
the *need* of start doing some earning.

regarding Java & .NET. i hate Java. my college tried to teach us
"fundamentals of Java" in our final year of graduation & next i left
Computer Programming & went into "selling" as Programming was "most 3rd
class thing i ever saw". (at that time i knew only what they taught me
i.e. DOS, BASIC, Windows, .NET, VB, C & Java & my teacher advised
students to get "1500 pages" book of DOS to the students who were
"serious" about their careers & i wrote 22 marks of C programmes
without even knowing what "String.h" is. i have not heard the word
"Linux", it only happened in 2005 with "Hackers" at HBO the day i
Goggled for "computer careers" & i found "Python", "UNIX", "OpenBSD",
"Fedora" & "GNU" & "Hacker how to" i never stopped since then. 6 months
ago i threw away all the Windows & Windows based softwares CDs, 35 in
total

i used Windows for 4 years & trust me it gave me nothing in
productivity. after 4 years you still stand where you were 4 years ago.
I advice everyone to use UNIX, i am using it from last 1 year & i
possess "common-sense" now. Windows degrades your senses, Windows users
carry diseases like paralysis, blindness & mirage-syndrome. remember
that there are exceptions in both directions & i am talking of 90% of
community.

Good luck anyway ...

thanks

 

[BobR]

Phlip wrote in message ...

Maybe www.povray.org

That's it.
I actually got into C++ because of POVray. I used to work (hobby) in
Assembler(x86 real-mode). I kept seeing people say that the POVray scripting
was very 'C' like. Then in 2000 I saw that 'C' and 'C++' had been
'standardised' (in '98), so, I decided it was time for a change.
I have to admit that now I can have a GUI program up-n-running in a day,
where it used to take at least a week in Assembler[1].
Funny, back in the '80s, I used to refer to 'C' as "a glorified librarian"
(due to it's lack of i/o without the use of libraries).

Anyway, on the raytrace NG I used to sign 'POVrookie', and just kept it over
the years.
[ with all they've added to the POVray script language (SDL), I'm still a
rookie! ]
It's more-or-less my trademark now.

[1] - I did my own graphics directly to my graphics card, and later used the
Vesa interface. Was using OOP (I called it 'modular') years before I found
out what it was. <G>

 

[Bo Persson]

Maybe. Maybe not.

Right. I work in a COBOL shop with most people aged 40-60. The 60+
guys will soon retire. Who will replace them, if nobody learns COBOL?

We are right now buying and customizing a large package that will
require maintenance for the next 10-20 years. Knowing COBOL might mean
a secure job for a decade or two!


Bo Persson

 

[mlimber]

Right. I work in a COBOL shop with most people aged 40-60. The 60+
guys will soon retire. Who will replace them, if nobody learns COBOL?

[OT]You'll note that I said "*if* you won't use it." There are a small
number of niche jobs that will use COBOL (but how about PL/I?), but the
OP doesn't seem concerned with those. So in his situation (as in most
others'), it's likely a waste to invest resources learning it.[/OT]

Cheers! --M

 

[Bo Persson]

Right. I work in a COBOL shop with most people aged 40-60. The 60+
guys will soon retire. Who will replace them, if nobody learns
COBOL?

[OT]You'll note that I said "*if* you won't use it." There are a
small
number of niche jobs that will use COBOL (but how about PL/I?), but
the OP doesn't seem concerned with those. So in his situation (as in
most others'), it's likely a waste to invest resources learning
it.[/OT]

Cheers! --M

There is actually another (merged) part of the company that is heavily
into PL/I.

The question you (the OP) might ask your/himself is, do you want to go
mainstream and compete with everyone, or do you want to specialize and
get a nice niche position? Who knows?

Just look at me, posting here in favor of C++ and having a day job
writing mainframe COBOL.


Bo Persson

 

[BobR]

arnuld wrote in message

i use "Debian Sarge", hence running "GCC - 3.3.5". i know its quite old
but i will be able to to get Fedora Core 6 after 3rd-5th November, then
i will use Fedora.

I advice everyone to use UNIX, i am using it from last 1 year &...

A conflict in terms.
'Debian' and 'Fedora'(AFAIK) are GNU, and the 'NU' in GNU stands for "Not
Unix"! <G>

Most people say 'Linux', but, the OS is GNU and most use the 'Linux kernel'.
So, you see 'Debian' refer to it as 'GNU/Linux'. Read-up on the history of
'Linux' in your Debian docs.

Newbies (FYI):
Debian is free, as in "freedom". And you can download it for free, as in
"free beer".
[ if you have a slow connection to the net, I suggest you buy a set of
CDs/DVDs. (the software is free, you are paying for the
download-time+media+shipping) ]
See www.debian.org and www.gnu.org for more.
And, you can have windows and GNU on the same computer.

 

[glen]

* arnuld:

Go for Stroustrup. That's the book I used (but then I had background
from C, and also, it was the first edition, which was a very slim book
compared to later ones aimed at US market where books are sold by
weight). Just read it /slowly/, like each page is one chapter, and
don't forget, try out things on your computer, e.g. /for each page/!

Hi, joining this conversation late, so maybe this post is not irrelevant.

Stroustrup has an important place on my bookshelf, but I don't think it's
the best place to go to learn the language. I think it's much better
suited as a reference, and to provide advanced insight into issues.

For learning the language I pass another book on my shelf, by O'Reilly.
It's loaned out right now, but I think it was title just 'Learning C++'.
I still turn to it from time to time, although far less often than
Stroustrup, for certain topics. It doesn't get much into advanced topics,
but it's small and has a lot of really useful information. Well written
and actually a page turner.

If you're a C expert, or have a really strong computer science background,
Stroustrup is a good recomendation. But if not I'd recomment 'Learning...'

 

[Phlip]

I actually got into C++ because of POVray. I used to work (hobby) in
Assembler(x86 real-mode). I kept seeing people say that the POVray
scripting
was very 'C' like.

I ought to line up and smack everyone who ever said that some language was
"C-like" when the only point in common was excessive {} delimiters.

Including those who say it about Java and C#.

POVray, while an awesome language in its own right, has as much in common
with C as a pogo stick has with a tank.

 

[BobR]

Phlip wrote in message ...

I ought to line up and smack everyone who ever said that some language was
"C-like" when the only point in common was excessive {} delimiters.

I'll help ya. Just remember that ***I*** didn't say it. <G>

But, it was enough to get me to take a look at 'C', 'C++'.
[ obviously I chose 'C++'. ]

Including those who say it about Java and C#.

POVray, while an awesome language in its own right, has as much in common
with C as a pogo stick has with a tank.

Riiiiiggghhttt!!!

Uhhh, you got a tank in POV SDL? <G>

 

[Greg Comeau]

Right. I work in a COBOL shop with most people aged 40-60. The 60+
guys will soon retire. Who will replace them, if nobody learns COBOL?

We are right now buying and customizing a large package that will
require maintenance for the next 10-20 years. Knowing COBOL might mean
a secure job for a decade or two!

I understand those concerns well. Part of my roots are in
mainframe COBOL and mainframe PL/I. I will probably never use
them again, but I have no regrets from having done so.
My horizons are expanded and it has become an aspect of what
has shaped me. My only regrets is that there is only 24 hours
a day for learning even more. That said, saying this is far
away from the OPs original question as I recall it.

 

[Greg Comeau]

Right. I work in a COBOL shop with most people aged 40-60. The 60+
guys will soon retire. Who will replace them, if nobody learns COBOL?

[OT]You'll note that I said "*if* you won't use it." There are a small
number of niche jobs that will use COBOL (but how about PL/I?), but the
OP doesn't seem concerned with those. So in his situation (as in most
others'), it's likely a waste to invest resources learning it.[/OT]

Indeed, we're probably way off from the OPs questions at
this point, but COBOL ain't dead.

 

[Greg Comeau]

The question you (the OP) might ask your/himself is, do you want to go
mainstream and compete with everyone, or do you want to specialize and
get a nice niche position? Who knows?

Or both. This is not too far fetched, I know I've morphed back
and forth over the years a number of times.

Just look at me, posting here in favor of C++ and having a day job
writing mainframe COBOL.

There ya go

 

[arnuld]

A conflict in terms.
'Debian' and 'Fedora'(AFAIK) are GNU, and the 'NU' in GNU stands for "Not
Unix"! <G>

i KNOW, when isaid UNIX, it meant "the OSs using UNIX way": UNIX,
GNU/Linux, Fedora Core & 4 BSDs.

Most people say 'Linux', but, the OS is GNU and most use the 'Linux kernel'.
So, you see 'Debian' refer to it as 'GNU/Linux'. Read-up on the history of
'Linux' in your Debian docs.

i already knew that & i have even coined a new term for whether Linux
or GNU/Linux, i call it LIGNUX - the GNU system running Linux as
kernel. i am much more interested in HURD/L4 & L4Ka:istachio.

Newbies (FYI):
Debian is free, as in "freedom". And you can download it for free, as in
"free beer".
[ if you have a slow connection to the net, I suggest you buy a set of
CDs/DVDs. (the software is free, you are paying for the
download-time+media+shipping) ]
See www.debian.org and www.gnu.org for more.
And, you can have windows and GNU on the same computer.

yeah, i had them together & i was constantly switching to Windows for
my daily work, then after much frustration & thought i converted my Box
into Debian Box & threw away all Windows & Windows based softwares 35
CDs (as i told earlier , much happier now & possess good knowledge
of OSs, hardware etc tec.

 

[arnuld]

The problem is that the OP has limited book availability. As for
_Learning C++_, see the review at:

http://accu.org/index.php/book_reviews?url=view.xqy?review=l003746

i checked ACCU reviews & from there i went to "blackwell" & "amazon" &
to the home-page at http://www.eric-nagler.com/ & found this book
assumes "prior" programming experience like C or Java, if i knew that,
i could have been using Stroustrup.

also its 3/e is not available, only the 1st one is available (just like
C++ Primer :-(

If any book were a possiblity, I'd still go with _Accelerated C++_ (see
the review at
http://accu.org/index.php/book_reviews?url=view.xqy?review=a002212).

i have its illegal copy, PDF format, read 1 chapter form it. i found
C++ Primer 4/e much better for me. i think "Accelerated C++" assumes
some programming skill, may be i am wrong, folks know better.

anyway, i tried Stroustrup today, it is really very-incomprehensible to
me, it feels like a working-programmer's book who has 3-5 years of
experience of Software Development, notice i did not say CS (also to me
it does not look like a reference work, i disagree with such opinions)

 

[Greg Comeau]

[Stroustrup] does not look like a reference work, i disagree
with such opinions)

I look stuff up in it all the time. So whatever it may or
may not look like, some of us do use it for reference,
among other things.

 

[arnuld]

Indeed, we're probably way off from the OPs questions at
this point, but COBOL ain't dead.

Ok, i tried both books [ Stroustrup & Eckel ] & finally after much
*work* i gave up. i think i also lack on experience. reverting to my
*unmanaged* bundle of C++ Primer 4/e.

still, i will be here for any comments or advice.

thanks

 

[arnuld]

Indeed, we're probably way off from the OPs questions at
this point, but COBOL ain't dead.

Ok, i tried both books [Stroustrup & Eckel] & finally after much *work*
i gave up. i think i also lack on experience. reverting to my
*unmanaged* bundle of C++ Primer 4/e.

still, i will be here for any comments or advice.

thanks

 

[arnuld]

Indeed, we're probably way off from the OPs questions at
this point, but COBOL ain't dead.

Ok, i tried both books [ Stroustrup & Eckel ] & finally after much
*work* i gave up. i think i also lack on experience. reverting to my
*unmanaged* bundle of C++ Primer 4/e.

still, i will be here for any comments or advice.

thanks

 

[arnuld]

Indeed, we're probably way off from the OPs questions at
this point, but COBOL ain't dead.

Ok, i tried both books [Stroustrup & Eckel] & finally after much *work*
i gave up. i think i also lack on experience. reverting to my
*unmanaged* bundle of C++ Primer 4/e.

still, i will be here for any comments or advice.

thanks

 

[arnuld]

Indeed, we're probably way off from the OPs questions at
this point, but COBOL ain't dead.

Ok, i tried both books [ Stroustrup & Eckel ] & finally after much
*work* i gave up. i think i also lack on experience. reverting to my
*unmanaged* bundle of C++ Primer 4/e.

still, i will be here for any comments or advice.

thanks