Python's website does a great disservice to the language

[CppNewB]

I was trying to advocate using Python for an upcoming prototype, so my boss
went out to take a look at the documentation and try and get a feel for what
the language is all about.

First comment; "I hope the language is designed better than the site." The
site is readable, but is amateurish. If I had an ounce of design skills in
me, I would take a stab at it.

Maybe we could round up a couple of designers to donate some time? Maybe we
could build a basic CMS on top of Django or TurboGears (displaying Python's
capability as a web development stack)?

 

[Grant Edwards]

I was trying to advocate using Python for an upcoming
prototype, so my boss went out to take a look at the
documentation and try and get a feel for what the language is
all about.

First comment; "I hope the language is designed better than
the site."

It sounds like you work for the prototypical PHB.

The site is readable, but is amateurish. If I had an ounce of
design skills in me, I would take a stab at it.

May God save us from "professional" looking web sites.

Maybe we could round up a couple of designers to donate some
time? Maybe we could build a basic CMS on top of Django or
TurboGears (displaying Python's capability as a web
development stack)?

I like the Python web site. It's simple, easy to read, and easy to
use. Just like the lanuage.

 

[Steve Holden]

I was trying to advocate using Python for an upcoming prototype, so my boss
went out to take a look at the documentation and try and get a feel for what
the language is all about.

First comment; "I hope the language is designed better than the site." The
site is readable, but is amateurish. If I had an ounce of design skills in
me, I would take a stab at it.

Maybe we could round up a couple of designers to donate some time? Maybe we
could build a basic CMS on top of Django or TurboGears (displaying Python's
capability as a web development stack)?

A redesign is complete, and should be deployed by the end of the year.

In the meantime please assure your boss that the language *is* far
better designed than the (current) web site, and that he shouldn't judge
a bottle by its label

[Thinks: wonder if it's time to release a sneak preview].

regards
Steve

 

[CppNewB]

Good news Steve.

It's definitely time for a sneak preview. Let's see it!

I was trying to advocate using Python for an upcoming prototype, so my
boss went out to take a look at the documentation and try and get a feel
for what the language is all about.

First comment; "I hope the language is designed better than the site."
The site is readable, but is amateurish. If I had an ounce of design
skills in me, I would take a stab at it.

Maybe we could round up a couple of designers to donate some time? Maybe
we could build a basic CMS on top of Django or TurboGears (displaying
Python's capability as a web development stack)?

A redesign is complete, and should be deployed by the end of the year.

In the meantime please assure your boss that the language *is* far better
designed than the (current) web site, and that he shouldn't judge a bottle
by its label

[Thinks: wonder if it's time to release a sneak preview].

regards
Steve

 

[Fredrik Lundh]

I was trying to advocate using Python for an upcoming prototype, so my boss
went out to take a look at the documentation and try and get a feel for what
the language is all about.

First comment; "I hope the language is designed better than the site."

so your boss is a troll, and you cannot use a search engine. I hope you're
company is more competent than it appears ;-)

(hint: a redesign is in progress, sponsored by the PSF. google for "python.org
redesign 2005" for more info. bte, the current design was created by people
who've won more design awards than most web firms; the design is old (1998),
not unusable...)

</F>

 

[bearophileHUGS]

May God save us from "professional" looking web sites.
I like the Python web site. It's simple, easy to read, and easy to
use.

I strongly agree with you, the web is full of web sites that are nice
"looking" but have microscopic fixed fonts (against the very spirit of
Html), are full of useless flash, have lots of html structures nested
inside other ones (PHP sites are often like this, with dirty
sourcecode), are difficult/slow to render on differnt/old browsers
(best viewed with its webmaster browser only), are two times bigger
than necessary, etc. Python web site can be improved, but there are lot
of ways to make it worse.

Bye,
bearophile

 

[Fredrik Lundh]

message = message.replace("you're", "your")

 

[Micah Elliott]

First comment; "I hope the language is designed better than the
site." The site is readable, but is amateurish.

That's flaim bait if I ever saw it!

I find the site quite lovely: very readable, no ads, well organized,
nice colors, simple, easy to maintain (uses ht2html with ReST). What
are you comparing it to? Have a look at homepages for ruby, java,
tcl, and perl. I consider python.org superior to all of them. It is
my personal benchmark for webpage usability.

 

[Sybren Stuvel]

(e-mail address removed) enlightened us with:

I strongly agree with you, the web is full of web sites that are
nice "looking" but have microscopic fixed fonts (against the very
spirit of Html), are full of useless flash, have lots of html
structures nested inside other ones (PHP sites are often like this,
with dirty sourcecode), are difficult/slow to render on differnt/old
browsers (best viewed with its webmaster browser only), are two
times bigger than necessary, etc. Python web site can be improved,
but there are lot of ways to make it worse.

I agree to the fullest! I'd rather have a website that I can read and
can click through in seconds.

Sybren

 

[svenn.are]

So the first thing you do when you go to a web page is to google if
they are going to redesign it?

 

[Rocco Moretti]

So the first thing you do when you go to a web page is to google if
they are going to redesign it?

I think the implication was "The first thing to do before *suggesting
that a redesign is nessasary* is to Google to see if such a redesign is
taking place."

 

[Robert Kern]

So the first thing you do when you go to a web page is to google if
they are going to redesign it?

No one is suggesting that it should be. However, Googling before coming
to a newsgroup to complain about anything is usually a good idea.

--
Robert Kern
(e-mail address removed)

"In the fields of hell where the grass grows high
Are the graves of dreams allowed to die."
-- Richard Harter

 

[Fredrik Lundh]

So the first thing you do when you go to a web page is to google if
they are going to redesign it?

the first thing he did was to go to the page, the next thing he did was
to post a "can we round up a couple of designers?" message with an in-
flammatory subject line. that algorithm is rather simplistic, and can be
greatly improved by inserting a "let's check google" clause at the right
place.

(and yes, making your boss look stupid is never a good idea)

</F>

 

[Steve Horsley]

I strongly agree with you, the web is full of web sites that are nice
"looking" but have microscopic fixed fonts (against the very spirit of
Html), are full of useless flash, have lots of html structures nested
inside other ones (PHP sites are often like this, with dirty
sourcecode), are difficult/slow to render on differnt/old browsers
(best viewed with its webmaster browser only), are two times bigger
than necessary, etc. Python web site can be improved, but there are lot
of ways to make it worse.

Bye,
bearophile

Agreed completely. Because the site works WITH HTML rather than
AGAINST it, it renders very quickly - small data size and easy on
the browser. It is a very functional reference site and
"prettying it up" would probably greatly detract from its utility.

I hope the new site design continues to be as easy on the eye,
and as quick to use.

Last time I wrote to a web site saying how clean and easy their
web site was to use, they added a bucket-load of graphics shortly
afterwards. Made it take twice as long to load, and added nothing
to usability.

A new logo might be in order though.

Steve

 

[Terry Hancock]

So the first thing you do when you go to a web page is to google if
they are going to redesign it?

No, but it might be wise before posting a potentially inflammatory and
insulting comment about in on the mailing list. ;-)

Seriously, though, what would you change about it? It's not flashy,
but works extremely well. You can say the same for Python itself
-- I think that may be its best quality. So how better to show that
than by having a site with the same character?

 

[John J. Lee]

rounded corners. The Python site is clean and to-the-point. I guess I could
admin that the various Python logos look dated, but that's about it. Oh, and

[...]

I love the logos!

python.org looks simple to me, not amateurish. But that just goes to
show that I think differently from your PHB, and in my book the
details of the visual design should be aimed at attracting more people
to the language as well as being easy to use, so I'm happy there's a
redesign.


John

 

[CppNewB]

(e-mail address removed) wrote:

to post a "can we round up a couple of designers?" message with an in-
flammatory subject line. that algorithm is rather simplistic, and can be

If it's any consolation, I did check Google Groups before posting. There's
a couple vague posts, most from a couple of years ago, but nothing
indivcative that a redesign was right around the corner....

My query:
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_...81&as_maxd=1&as_maxm=11&as_maxy=2005&safe=off

Inflammatory? Usually the thing you are most defensive about is the subject
matter you should be evaluating closer.

My thoughts weren't to add a flash demo or develop some 500K logo or fixing
the font size. But the logos look like they were done in Paint and maybe a
readable default font is in order.

Look at the site not as a resource for Python (for which it is a great) but
as an entity forming your first impressions of the project.

 

[CppNewB]

rounded corners. The Python site is clean and to-the-point. I guess I
could
admin that the various Python logos look dated, but that's about it. Oh,
and

[...]

I love the logos!

Exactly my sentiment.

I know Python's capabilities and I am more than satisfied. I was introduced
by a friend, not the website.

But to the masses of asses out there that are quickly evaluating their
development choices and jumping from Visual Studio to Delphi's website to
Ruby on Rail's website, the aesthetic welcome will be worn out once they get
to python.org.

 

[David Rasmussen]

[Thinks: wonder if it's time to release a sneak preview].

It is! It is!

/David

 

[bearophileHUGS]

CppNewB>and maybe a readable default font is in order.<

That font looks fine to me, maybe there's a problem in the default font
of your browser, you can probably fix your problem...

Bye,
bearophile